There were some questions about how quickly a free spirit could gain force and how powerful it could become.
edit: forget it
Full Version: Are free spirits too powerful?
Um. Since when could they buy karma for 25000 nuyen a piece? Cash to karma is an optional rule. Also one point of karma is far from one point of force, the karma costs for which go up exponentially.
IMHO, This really wouldn't be feasible, for several reasons.
The cash for Karma rule is an option specific to players, allowing a balance between the street Sam's and Mages. I.E. Mages need ALOT more Karma than Sam's, and not as much cash, the rule was created not for spirits, but as a general method of balance between different Player caracter types.
Also I "think" your Karma cost is incorrect, its is 10 karma for a Human to raise his karma pool by , one, for others it costs 20 Karma to increase Karma pool by one.
Though I would agree that a Free Spirit could use this as a means to gain karma, if you as a GM chose to allow it, a player playing a Free spirit, should not be able to do it this way, the "free spirit PC" I have seen one or two in my SR gaming, would be bidden by the same rules as other players, and could not do this simply because he would not have the time to.
A second problem I have with this method is the "reality" of 2060, a free spirit of force 2 who started buying karma off of different people would quickly gather rumors, it would be a matter of a month or two until mages were actively hunting down the spirit doing this.
Each month the spirit would be having to find new voluenters, to receive Karma from , as most normal people never gain karma, or at best a point of two a month.
Also, I belive the process of giving karma to a spirit is rather painful as the spirit is effective draining life from them.. not to many people would want to do this more than once.
My third problem is that No where ins the SR universe is there a creature that I have with the stats of your 3 year old Free spirit, Not dragons, not immortal elves, not even the terrors.
The cash for Karma rule is an option specific to players, allowing a balance between the street Sam's and Mages. I.E. Mages need ALOT more Karma than Sam's, and not as much cash, the rule was created not for spirits, but as a general method of balance between different Player caracter types.
Also I "think" your Karma cost is incorrect, its is 10 karma for a Human to raise his karma pool by , one, for others it costs 20 Karma to increase Karma pool by one.
Though I would agree that a Free Spirit could use this as a means to gain karma, if you as a GM chose to allow it, a player playing a Free spirit, should not be able to do it this way, the "free spirit PC" I have seen one or two in my SR gaming, would be bidden by the same rules as other players, and could not do this simply because he would not have the time to.
A second problem I have with this method is the "reality" of 2060, a free spirit of force 2 who started buying karma off of different people would quickly gather rumors, it would be a matter of a month or two until mages were actively hunting down the spirit doing this.
Each month the spirit would be having to find new voluenters, to receive Karma from , as most normal people never gain karma, or at best a point of two a month.
Also, I belive the process of giving karma to a spirit is rather painful as the spirit is effective draining life from them.. not to many people would want to do this more than once.
My third problem is that No where ins the SR universe is there a creature that I have with the stats of your 3 year old Free spirit, Not dragons, not immortal elves, not even the terrors.
| QUOTE |
| Since when could they buy karma for 25000 nuyen a piece? |
Please see ASSUMPTIONS listed previously. Karma can be bought by a free spirit at whatever price someone decides to sell it. Homeless bums could conceivably sell it for 100 nuyen a point.
edit: never mind
| QUOTE |
| Also I "think" your Karma cost is incorrect, its is 10 karma for a Human to raise his karma pool by , one, for others it costs 20 Karma to increase Karma pool by one. |
MitS, p 116.
I think that if you read those new spirit rules, it takes an equivalent ammount of energy to force point, IE you want to go from force 3 to force 4 it takes 4 spirit energy, which you pay the escalating karma for, either way, even if the rules say one point of energy directly for one point of force, you and I both know they didn't mean it to be that cheep.
Any GM outhere that allows free spirits to players ? how can a player play it in a good way ? they lacks the knowlege and the brain (seems quite normal after all , they're just players and , i think, that a Gm who trusts his players about their intelligence will soon get disappointed...)
OK:
A spirit who tried to do that would quickly be bound by a mage. The goods created by the wealth power carry the spirit's signature which I believe is enough to find its naitive plane and hence it's true name. It's just a matter of time before a character attempts to bind the spirit.
Even ignoring the above, or perhaps as an augmentation to that argument, the spirit would go up in force far more slowly:
It costs 2*(force to be raised to) in karma to raise spirit energy (raising 3 to 4 costs 8 karma)
it costs 3*(force to be raised to) in karma to raise spirit force (raising 3 to 4 costs 12 karma)
[edit]Edited for clarity[/edit]
A spirit who tried to do that would quickly be bound by a mage. The goods created by the wealth power carry the spirit's signature which I believe is enough to find its naitive plane and hence it's true name. It's just a matter of time before a character attempts to bind the spirit.
Even ignoring the above, or perhaps as an augmentation to that argument, the spirit would go up in force far more slowly:
It costs 2*(force to be raised to) in karma to raise spirit energy (raising 3 to 4 costs 8 karma)
it costs 3*(force to be raised to) in karma to raise spirit force (raising 3 to 4 costs 12 karma)
[edit]Edited for clarity[/edit]
a spirit can do it, if it's careful. basically, you sell the wealth you create to a buyer who probably won't get it magically appraised. then, later, when the cash you made from that sale has multiplied, you buy the item back.
| QUOTE |
| A spirit who tried to do that would quickly be bound by a mage. The goods created by the wealth power carry the spirit's signature which I believe is enough to find its naitive plane and hence it's true name. It's just a matter of time before a character attempts to bind the spirit. |
How does someone survive that? They have to do the entire astral quest at a TN of the spirit's force then unless it's a small spirit (under 6) or they get really lucky they will probably have some decent physical and stun damage where they and up at the citidel and have to beat it in a one on one fight while wounded all to heck, and probably get massacred. Some of the damage resitance tests on those places are brutal.
Another problem for the spirit would be that even if a human/metahuman never caught on, in the astral plane that spirit would very quickly become a target, spirits will as ruthlessly crush and up and comeig competitor, as any mega corp would do to a single "A" corp trying to muscle in on its turf.
...what makes you say that?
The spirit would be spending a LONG time at a low force. I can't be bothered going into exactly how long but probably over 14 months to put spirit energy up-to 2 (need 4 karma = 100k:nuyen: =~ 14 months worth of spirit wealth power at 7k (1*3.5*2) each time). After another 16 months; you finally raise your force to 3.
The person you sell it to dosen't need to get it magically appraised. If you are spontaneously producing 7K
worth of gold and jewelry every month for over a year; the only people who are going to buy it off you are dealers in jewelry ETC and fences (at less than the base value I'd dare say). After that it'll be sold on to whoever wants to pay for it.
All it takes is for some mage looking for a suitable material basis for a focus to come looking in one of the (numerous) shops all-over seattle (& beyond) where your stuff has ended-up. He notices an astral signature on something, takes a closer look, buys the piece, and comes knocking at your metaplane asking what your true name is (or, not understanding what it is, shows it to someone else who does the last step).
In the example above the spirit took almost 3 years to raise its force to 3. The spirit must now have sold around 325k worth of wealth power items. If you think you can have them all sold to people who will not have them appraised (or even mention it to other people) then please tell me how.
The person you sell it to dosen't need to get it magically appraised. If you are spontaneously producing 7K
worth of gold and jewelry every month for over a year; the only people who are going to buy it off you are dealers in jewelry ETC and fences (at less than the base value I'd dare say). After that it'll be sold on to whoever wants to pay for it.All it takes is for some mage looking for a suitable material basis for a focus to come looking in one of the (numerous) shops all-over seattle (& beyond) where your stuff has ended-up. He notices an astral signature on something, takes a closer look, buys the piece, and comes knocking at your metaplane asking what your true name is (or, not understanding what it is, shows it to someone else who does the last step).
In the example above the spirit took almost 3 years to raise its force to 3. The spirit must now have sold around 325k worth of wealth power items. If you think you can have them all sold to people who will not have them appraised (or even mention it to other people) then please tell me how.
| QUOTE |
| In the example above the spirit took almost 3 years to raise its force to 3. The spirit must now have sold around 325k worth of wealth power items. If you think you can have them all sold to people who will not have them appraised (or even mention it to other people) then please tell me how. |
The spirit's wealth power makes Opium? Or some other consumable item. Perhaps a new spirit power of Cleansing would be desirable.
[edit]
Also, most spirits that become free are of higher force (higher force makes it more likely for one to become free anyway).
that's where the 'being careful' part comes in, see. you create the wealth in a form that doesn't lend itself to being examined--remember, it's just an astral signature; a mage would have to actively assense the object to pick it up. who's going to assense the gold plating on an expensive nightstand? or the knobs on a dresser drawer? as active and unstable as the financial world of SR is--a megacorp died just a few years go; don't think the waves from that have even begun to settle--there are plenty of nuevo rich types in the market for gaudy ways to display their newfound wealth. most of them aren't going to look at a set of sterling silver dinnerware and think "i should have a mage check that for astral signatures!"
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| A spirit who tried to do that would quickly be bound by a mage. The goods created by the wealth power carry the spirit's signature which I believe is enough to find its naitive plane and hence it's true name. It's just a matter of time before a character attempts to bind the spirit. |
That is why a free spirit would create consumables, such as sugar or natural gas, with the power until they are powerful enough to not worry about being bound.
| QUOTE |
| Even ignoring the above, or perhaps as an augmentation to that argument, the spirit would go up in force far more slowly: It costs 2*(force to be raised to) in karma to raise spirit energy (raising 3 to 4 costs 8 karma) it costs 3*(force to be raised to) in karma to raise spirit force (raising 3 to 4 costs 12 karma) [edit]Edited for clarity[/edit] |
The rules for raising Force by 1 are 3*new force and 1 point of spirit energy.
Spirit energy costs 1*desired spirit energy in karma to raise by 1.
So, assuming a beginning Force 3 Spirit Energy 1 (3/1) spirit with personal domain and wealth power, using 3.5 as the average result of rolling 1D6.
I will only use the benefit of the wealth power for the calculations, but the spirit could surely gain other karma in other ways.
Month 1: 1*2*3.5*3*1000=21000
Spirit Energy*2 (for personal domain)D6*Force*1000
buy 21 points of karma at 1000/point (I earlier thought I would use 25,000/point so that no one would complain about buying karma and the associated cost. People still complained, so frag 'em. I think homeless would jump at 1000.)
4/0=12 karma (3*4 to raise force and 1-1=0 for spirit energy), 4/1=1 karma (raise spirit energy to 1 costs 1*1 karma), 4/2=2 karma (raise spirit energy to 2 costs 1*2 karma), 4/3=3 karma, 3 karma left
Month 2: 3*2*3.5*4*1000=84000
buy 84 points of karma +3 (left from last month)=87
5/2=15 karma (3*5 to raise force from 4 to 5 and reduce spirit energy from 3 to 2), 6/1=18, 7/0=21, 7/1=1, 8/0=24, 8/1=1, 8/2=2, 8/3=3, 2 karma left
Month 3: 3*2**3.5*8*1000=168,000
buy 168 karma +2=170
9/2=27, 10/1=30, 11/0=33, 11/1=1, 12/0=36, 12/1=1, 13/0=39, 13/1=1, 13/2=2
Month 4: 2*2*3.5*13*1000=182000
182 karma
14/1=42, 15/0=45, 15/1=1, 16/0=48, 16/1=1, 16/2=2, 16/3=3, 16/4=4, 16/5=5, 16/6=6, 16/7=7, 16/8=8, 16/9=9, 1 karma left
Month 5: 9*2*3.5*16*1000=1008000
1008 karma +1=1009
17/8=51, 18/7=54, 19/6=57, 20/5=60, 21/4=63, 22/3=66, 23/2=69, 24/1=72, 25/0=75, 25/1=1, 26/0=78, 26/1=1, 27/0=81, 27/1=1, 28/0=84, 28/12=78, 8 karma left
Month 6: 12*2*3.5*28*1000=2,352,000
2352+8=2360
29/11=87, 30/10=90, 31/9=93, 32/8=96, 33/7=99, 34/6=102, 35/5=105, 36/4=108, 37/3=111, 38/2=114, 39/1=117, 40/0=120, 40/1=1, 41/0=123, 41/1=1, 42/0=126, 42/1=1, 43/0=129, 43/1=1, 44/0=132, 44/1=1, 45/0=135, 45/1=1, 46/0=138, 46/1=1, 47/0=141, 47/1=1, 48/0=144, 48/8=36, 6 karma left
Month 7: 8*2*3.5*48*1000=
In our campaign there is a Free Spirit with the powers of Possession, Hidden Life, and Personal Domain. If it wishes, it can possess someone and let its regeneration heal that person. Badly wounded characters have been known to offer Karma for this service, losing their physical wounds but gaining stun damage when the spirit departs their body. So far, it has released all the bodies that have given it Karma and been voluntarily possessed.
Our Samurai view this as more expensive than the hospital, more risky than the street doc, but quicker. Two have paid Karma to take the Spirit as a Contact (paid straight to the spirit), and one has used the service.
Our Samurai view this as more expensive than the hospital, more risky than the street doc, but quicker. Two have paid Karma to take the Spirit as a Contact (paid straight to the spirit), and one has used the service.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) |
| In our campaign there is a Free Spirit with the powers of Possession, Hidden Life, and Personal Domain. If it wishes, it can possess someone and let its regeneration heal that person. Badly wounded characters have been known to offer Karma for this service, losing their physical wounds but gaining stun damage when the spirit departs their body. So far, it has released all the bodies that have given it Karma and been voluntarily possessed. Our Samurai view this as more expensive than the hospital, more risky than the street doc, but quicker. Two have paid Karma to take the Spirit as a Contact (paid straight to the spirit), and one has used the service. |
That's a sweet idea actually... hell, I like...
A GM can make a free spirit as powerful or as weak as an adventure requires, in respect to the strength of the shadowrun team he or she is looking to challenge. It looks like you're still trying to say that the wealth power has an affect on the free spirit, and in all of my readings I haven't found anything that said a free spirit could spend money to raise it's good karma. Most spirits despise the way mortals druel over gems and precious metals. To them it's more useful for achieving personal goals like purchasing the personal domain they believe was theirs in the first place, or highering a band of mercs or shadowrunners to chase off an irritating corp or land developer.
Like OurTeam suggested, it's more likely to bargain with runners and other such people to do small services in exchange for karma. The concept of good karma is a little more like the giving of a fraction of one's soul or life essence, through the eyes of a character. A free spirit's not going to gain power very quickly at all, unless there's an abundant supply of karma-generous characters living in its town.
Some free spirits enjoy doing rituals, it seems, such as skinning people alive... ::shiver:: or so I've heard in the shadows. We see the bugs gaining power in similar ways for the greaters powers of the hive. We runners get it by running the shadows.
I guess you're perception of the wealth power is somewhat different than mine, pertaining to it's uses within game terms.
Like OurTeam suggested, it's more likely to bargain with runners and other such people to do small services in exchange for karma. The concept of good karma is a little more like the giving of a fraction of one's soul or life essence, through the eyes of a character. A free spirit's not going to gain power very quickly at all, unless there's an abundant supply of karma-generous characters living in its town.
Some free spirits enjoy doing rituals, it seems, such as skinning people alive... ::shiver:: or so I've heard in the shadows. We see the bugs gaining power in similar ways for the greaters powers of the hive. We runners get it by running the shadows.
I guess you're perception of the wealth power is somewhat different than mine, pertaining to it's uses within game terms.
LOL. Giving goods to homeless people for karma!
Now that's what I call being careful. How long do you think it would be before the word spread that a free spirit is offering this service? Sure; the tramps might keep it a secret but if they tell their tramp friends or someone asks how they got hold of the goods (which they must sell/trade if it's to be any use to them).
Imagine a tramp walking into a shop and offering a pristine condition, exquisite, 1000nuyen rug... Such an act would likely be followed by a call to the police and the tramp being arrested/interrogated by LS. When they hear the story that a spirit was involved (or something that sounds like a spirit's involvement) mages will be called over to check the integrity of the claim and sure-enough the rug carrys an astral signature. The report is filed, the tramp is let-go, and the mage who assensed it goes home, performs an astral quest to the spirit's home metaplane, learns the true name, and bonds the spirit.
you'd also need tramps with 3 or more karma (you're transferring karma at a 3:1 ratio unless the tramp is awakened) which means that not every tramp is going to be able to give you karma. Hell I don't even know if tramps would collect that much karma at a time by being homeless and foraging through bins.
I'd like to point-out that the spirit power at no point mentions that consumeable items can be created. Only "Arabian nights" style goods. Your spirit could have a variant but that's entering the realm of house rules. If you are giving this stuff to neuvo-riche style people then you are going to have to give them a lot more than 1000 nuyen worth per point.
Now that's what I call being careful. How long do you think it would be before the word spread that a free spirit is offering this service? Sure; the tramps might keep it a secret but if they tell their tramp friends or someone asks how they got hold of the goods (which they must sell/trade if it's to be any use to them).
Imagine a tramp walking into a shop and offering a pristine condition, exquisite, 1000nuyen rug... Such an act would likely be followed by a call to the police and the tramp being arrested/interrogated by LS. When they hear the story that a spirit was involved (or something that sounds like a spirit's involvement) mages will be called over to check the integrity of the claim and sure-enough the rug carrys an astral signature. The report is filed, the tramp is let-go, and the mage who assensed it goes home, performs an astral quest to the spirit's home metaplane, learns the true name, and bonds the spirit.
you'd also need tramps with 3 or more karma (you're transferring karma at a 3:1 ratio unless the tramp is awakened) which means that not every tramp is going to be able to give you karma. Hell I don't even know if tramps would collect that much karma at a time by being homeless and foraging through bins.
I'd like to point-out that the spirit power at no point mentions that consumeable items can be created. Only "Arabian nights" style goods. Your spirit could have a variant but that's entering the realm of house rules. If you are giving this stuff to neuvo-riche style people then you are going to have to give them a lot more than 1000 nuyen worth per point.
Well, if the tramp in question goes to a shady fence who doesn't object to swapping goods/services for certified cred with SINless folk, odds are it won't be as big of an issue.
Except for maybe the fence hiring some thugs to abuse the SINless to find out where he acquired such a masterpiece and the spirit getting upset...
-Siege
Except for maybe the fence hiring some thugs to abuse the SINless to find out where he acquired such a masterpiece and the spirit getting upset...
-Siege
Are Free Spirits too powerfull?
Sure.
Immortal. No Drain. Sorcery pool = force + spirit power. Unaffected by toxins or poisons. Can go anywhere at blazing speeds. Immunity to normal weapons. Abilities like Engulf, Possession, and so on.
If they want karma? They simply become the avatar for a few small time magical groups. Aka group of teenage wikkans in thier backyard with a cauldron. Dinky spirit goes in, sucks up 3 karma from each of the members Improves it's own power. Makes them do what it wants, asks for more karma for access to some of it's powers or metamagical skills.
Goes down the street to the next group of Phys adept Jocks looking for a magical edge, and thier drinking beer party Oogachuka! And poof same little spirit shows up, sucks down 3 karma (or more) from each, and so on.
Spirits can whore themselves out for karma all the time. Spirit sneaks around a corp place, finds a group of runners in trouble, manifests and says 'Give me some of your energy and I'll help you win most assuredly" They all front some Karma, Spirit goes on a little tyrade.
If you're a creative free spirit you can earn alot of karma from many sources with little personal risk
Sure.
Immortal. No Drain. Sorcery pool = force + spirit power. Unaffected by toxins or poisons. Can go anywhere at blazing speeds. Immunity to normal weapons. Abilities like Engulf, Possession, and so on.
If they want karma? They simply become the avatar for a few small time magical groups. Aka group of teenage wikkans in thier backyard with a cauldron. Dinky spirit goes in, sucks up 3 karma from each of the members Improves it's own power. Makes them do what it wants, asks for more karma for access to some of it's powers or metamagical skills.
Goes down the street to the next group of Phys adept Jocks looking for a magical edge, and thier drinking beer party Oogachuka! And poof same little spirit shows up, sucks down 3 karma (or more) from each, and so on.
Spirits can whore themselves out for karma all the time. Spirit sneaks around a corp place, finds a group of runners in trouble, manifests and says 'Give me some of your energy and I'll help you win most assuredly" They all front some Karma, Spirit goes on a little tyrade.
If you're a creative free spirit you can earn alot of karma from many sources with little personal risk
this is like saying that dragons are too powerful. if you're talking about playing them like PCs, then yeah, don't be surprised when they overmatch anything you throw at them after a few game sessions. if you're talking about using them when you GM, they're as powerful as you need them to be.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| I'd like to point-out that the spirit power at no point mentions that consumeable items can be created. Only "Arabian nights" style goods. |
Okay, could you quote the part of the wealth power that explicitly says *only* tangible, permanent goods are created?
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
Okay, could you quote the part of the wealth power that explicitly says *only* tangible, permanent goods are created? |
| QUOTE (Wealth @ P118, MITS) |
| Wealth gives the spirit the power to create precious stones or metals. A spirit sophisticated in the ways of metahumanity, like a genie from the Arabian Nights, produce exotic fabrics, artworks and so on. |
(so exact a quote I even included the typo)
Firstly: Unless the spirit is sophisticated in the ways of metahumanity, it states somewhat bluntly that the spirit can create precious stones and metals. Unless the person you are selling to is just going to destroy the diamonds and gold you give him, I doubt he's going to be using-up any of that.
For spirits more sophisticated in the ways of humanity; I might allow them to create a bottle of expencive wine or something under the bracket of an artwork. Then again; I'd hardly class a force 2 or 3 spirit as being sophisticated in the ways of metahumanity. Maybe a good force (6+?) animus/anima free spirit.
Anyway; I suspect that most free spirits would be capible of forming raw chunks of gold and precious stones but few to be able to create something like wines and other consumables.
Firstly: Unless the spirit is sophisticated in the ways of metahumanity, it states somewhat bluntly that the spirit can create precious stones and metals. Unless the person you are selling to is just going to destroy the diamonds and gold you give him, I doubt he's going to be using-up any of that.
For spirits more sophisticated in the ways of humanity; I might allow them to create a bottle of expencive wine or something under the bracket of an artwork. Then again; I'd hardly class a force 2 or 3 spirit as being sophisticated in the ways of metahumanity. Maybe a good force (6+?) animus/anima free spirit.
Anyway; I suspect that most free spirits would be capible of forming raw chunks of gold and precious stones but few to be able to create something like wines and other consumables.
| QUOTE (Wealth @ P118, MITS) |
| Wealth gives the spirit the power to create precious stones or metals. A spirit sophisticated in the ways of metahumanity, like a genie from the Arabian Nights, produce exotic fabrics, artworks and so on. |
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| For spirits more sophisticated in the ways of humanity; I might allow them to create a bottle of expencive wine or something under the bracket of an artwork. Then again; I'd hardly class a force 2 or 3 spirit as being sophisticated in the ways of metahumanity. Maybe a good force (6+?) animus/anima free spirit. Anyway; I suspect that most free spirits would be capible of forming raw chunks of gold and precious stones but few to be able to create something like wines and other consumables. |
First, just kind of an aside, are you sure about the connection between the force of a free spirit and its familiarity with metahumanity? A high force free forest spirit will probably be a lot more clueless about humanity than a low force free city spirit or familiar.
Second, consumables simply aren't touched on in that quote, just a non-exclusive list of examples. IMO, a genie would Arabian Nights would have a heck of a coffee and opium selection, as befitted the wealth of sheik.
Third, "like a genie from the Arabian Nights" is open to interpretation. How "like" the genie? It does not necessarily mean "Only 'Arabian nights' style goods," it can also mean filling chambers with "exotic fabrics, artworks and so on" in the same way the Arabian Nights' genie filled that cavern. Since not all spirits are from Arabia, you'll probably get local cultural variations. For an ex-familiar free spirit who circulated in the upper ranks of megacorp society (with his body guard mage master), those "exotic fabrics" might be orbital synthetic spider silk and woven pure titanium fiber (quite the latest exotic fabrics among Ares executives) and the "artworks" might be classic ice sculptures, paper mache abstract art, and piles of nova-coke shaped like nekkid women.
since the book goes out of its way to mention that the astral signature is permanent, i would assume that consumable items are not part of the deal. otherwise, there's no point in mentioning that it's permanent--if it weren't, no spirit would ever make anything but consumables.
It's either that or whoever drinks the coffee/takes the opium might find the astral impressions of the spirit impressed on them for a bit. 
My point is all the published free spirits seem like wimps. It seems like everyone concedes the top spot on the food chain to great dragons. Dragons have something of a cap on their stats, free spirits don't, and at some point a free spirit is pretty much immune from being bound. At that point it can be as blatant about its true name as it wishes, say it 3 times and get a POed spirit asking, "just what do you want?"
Everyone knows Buttercup is a free spirit, why hasn't it been bound? Same for the splintered spirits of Denver prior to that big, bad, great dragon showing up. If it is so easy to astral quest for a true name and bind a free spirit, why are there any free?"
Also, the karma ratio doesn't have to be 3:1, someone can make a conjuring test to reduce the ratio. A good reason for a spirit to know conjuring.
The only reason I was using the wealth power was that it can show some definite numbers every month. And no, I wasn't suggesting trading the fruits of the wealth power to the homeless for karma, and no, I don't feel like discussingt assinine fencing returns, but you only get 30% of the street value which is 75% of the list value. The spirit could as easily use a create feast spell and feed starving Ethiopians in trade for karma, but I sure don't want to get people picking apart how much that would be worth or if is even possible. No one would give up their essence for a steak dinner. Those people are vegetarians, no way would they trade karma for a meal with magic meat.
The point is: Why aren't free spirits dominating the world? Why haven't we heard about the real powerful ones? Have the guys at Wizkids/Fanpro overlooked them? Or are they just enamored with dragons, maybe stemming from their D&D upbringing or their pewter sculptures with the fake gems?
Everyone knows Buttercup is a free spirit, why hasn't it been bound? Same for the splintered spirits of Denver prior to that big, bad, great dragon showing up. If it is so easy to astral quest for a true name and bind a free spirit, why are there any free?"
Also, the karma ratio doesn't have to be 3:1, someone can make a conjuring test to reduce the ratio. A good reason for a spirit to know conjuring.
The only reason I was using the wealth power was that it can show some definite numbers every month. And no, I wasn't suggesting trading the fruits of the wealth power to the homeless for karma, and no, I don't feel like discussingt assinine fencing returns, but you only get 30% of the street value which is 75% of the list value. The spirit could as easily use a create feast spell and feed starving Ethiopians in trade for karma, but I sure don't want to get people picking apart how much that would be worth or if is even possible. No one would give up their essence for a steak dinner. Those people are vegetarians, no way would they trade karma for a meal with magic meat.
The point is: Why aren't free spirits dominating the world? Why haven't we heard about the real powerful ones? Have the guys at Wizkids/Fanpro overlooked them? Or are they just enamored with dragons, maybe stemming from their D&D upbringing or their pewter sculptures with the fake gems?
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| The point is: Why aren't free spirits dominating the world? Why haven't we heard about the real powerful ones? |
How do you know they don't dominate the world? Perhaps they don't want us to hear about them.
Now to be serious, you appear to say that free spirits are so weak they'll almost assuredly be controlled by someone soon, and they are so powerful we should hear about them affecting the world in major ways. You can't have it both ways.
What is the highest rating Astral Quest you think an Initiate 1 magician can succeed at on a regular basis in your game? How about an Initiate 5? I think the average spirit going free has a higher (Force + Spirit Energy) than both these quest ratings. I think low-force Free Spirits don't happen very often, and when they do it's likely a magician will soon grab them and not give them enough Karma to grow very powerful. I think most high-force Free Spirits choose not to spend a whole lot of time hanging around people.
I play by the written rules that an astral magician who is disrupted in Astral Combat rolls for magic loss, and that every Astral Quest either ends in success or disruption. Do you rule that disruption during an Astral Quest counts as being disrupted in Astral Combat?
Now to be serious, you appear to say that free spirits are so weak they'll almost assuredly be controlled by someone soon, and they are so powerful we should hear about them affecting the world in major ways. You can't have it both ways.
What is the highest rating Astral Quest you think an Initiate 1 magician can succeed at on a regular basis in your game? How about an Initiate 5? I think the average spirit going free has a higher (Force + Spirit Energy) than both these quest ratings. I think low-force Free Spirits don't happen very often, and when they do it's likely a magician will soon grab them and not give them enough Karma to grow very powerful. I think most high-force Free Spirits choose not to spend a whole lot of time hanging around people.
I play by the written rules that an astral magician who is disrupted in Astral Combat rolls for magic loss, and that every Astral Quest either ends in success or disruption. Do you rule that disruption during an Astral Quest counts as being disrupted in Astral Combat?
keep in mind that he has to start at force 8 before having better than a 50/50 chance of going free in the first place.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) | ||
| Now to be serious, you appear to say that free spirits are so weak they'll almost assuredly be controlled by someone soon, and they are so powerful we should hear about them affecting the world in major ways. You can't have it both ways.[/quote] I was referring to Lilt and others who think it's simple to bind spirits. IMO free spirits become virtually immune to binding at some point.
I love it when a character of mine finds and binds a free spirit. I usually feed it as much karma as it can earn and I can spare so that the spirit sees a benefit of not trying to plot my demise and I get a more powerful tool. [quote]I think most high-force Free Spirits choose not to spend a whole lot of time hanging around people. |
But obviousely some do. MitS lists 5 different classes of motivations for them to interact with humanity.
| QUOTE |
| keep in mind that he has to start at force 8 before having better than a 50/50 chance of going free in the first place. |
That may be tru for all types of spirits, but the TN drops to 4 forspirits of man and elementals bound for more than a few weeks. The worst chance any force spirit of this type has is 50/50. (1D6, TN4)
The answer is motivation. Spirits don't want to dominate the world and those that do are either bound or banished by the bigger fish.
Think about Buttercup for a minute. She has a partial share in Yamatetsu and is trying to control the board. This makes her one of the most powerful beings in the world. She has spies, one of whom was killed trying to become Masaru's voice, and is not yet been bound by a dragon. How powerful must she be to make dragons (at least 2 who would want to) nervous about learning her true name?
But what makes you think spirits want to dominate the world? They have "goals" but none that need match ours. One addicted to sex may come to dominate a brothel, but what need would it have for more? They have no sense of mortality that we know of. Do they even fear destruction? Is being bound more than embarrassing?
Hell the free spirits of the Yucatan are kicking military and mercenary butt, both the toxics and non.
Think about Buttercup for a minute. She has a partial share in Yamatetsu and is trying to control the board. This makes her one of the most powerful beings in the world. She has spies, one of whom was killed trying to become Masaru's voice, and is not yet been bound by a dragon. How powerful must she be to make dragons (at least 2 who would want to) nervous about learning her true name?
But what makes you think spirits want to dominate the world? They have "goals" but none that need match ours. One addicted to sex may come to dominate a brothel, but what need would it have for more? They have no sense of mortality that we know of. Do they even fear destruction? Is being bound more than embarrassing?
Hell the free spirits of the Yucatan are kicking military and mercenary butt, both the toxics and non.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) |
| In our campaign there is a Free Spirit with the powers of Possession, Hidden Life, and Personal Domain. If it wishes, it can possess someone and let its regeneration heal that person. Badly wounded characters have been known to offer Karma for this service, losing their physical wounds but gaining stun damage when the spirit departs their body. Our Samurai view this as more expensive than the hospital, more risky than the street doc, but quicker. Two have paid Karma to take the Spirit as a Contact (paid straight to the spirit), and one has used the service. |
When the spirit regenerates, does it regenerate the cyberware out?
Something else to consider.... "Who has Karma?".
One of the posts by Tisoz states that even a bum on the street could sell a karma for something. But, IMHO, a bum wouldn't have the karma to sell.
First off, we're talking Good Karma here, not KarmaPool. and the only place in all the books where the true definition of Good Karma is defined is on page 116 of MitS where it's quoted as "akin to the power of a living soul to influence its own destiny."
Secondly, a non-mage gives Karma to Spirits at a cost of 3:1.
Now, I'd go so far as to say a bum on the street has lost his ability to control his own destiny, that's how he got where he is. GoodKarma:0.
Even those who do gain Karma (those who stand outside the machines of corporatations, Ie: those who develop their own destiny instead of following the authority of others), are usually driven enough to not want to just give this stuff away, since it's a valueable resource for learning. This is why Runners are such a commodity to Spirits, people in general, IMHO, don't have Good Karma, and have just 'accepted their lot in life'.
Anyways, although I feel this is the Canon belief, it's also just an interpretation of what I read. If everyone had Good Karma to spare, you're absolutely right, Free Spirits would reign un-checked.
Sphynx
One of the posts by Tisoz states that even a bum on the street could sell a karma for something. But, IMHO, a bum wouldn't have the karma to sell.
First off, we're talking Good Karma here, not KarmaPool. and the only place in all the books where the true definition of Good Karma is defined is on page 116 of MitS where it's quoted as "akin to the power of a living soul to influence its own destiny."
Secondly, a non-mage gives Karma to Spirits at a cost of 3:1.
Now, I'd go so far as to say a bum on the street has lost his ability to control his own destiny, that's how he got where he is. GoodKarma:0.
Even those who do gain Karma (those who stand outside the machines of corporatations, Ie: those who develop their own destiny instead of following the authority of others), are usually driven enough to not want to just give this stuff away, since it's a valueable resource for learning. This is why Runners are such a commodity to Spirits, people in general, IMHO, don't have Good Karma, and have just 'accepted their lot in life'.
Anyways, although I feel this is the Canon belief, it's also just an interpretation of what I read. If everyone had Good Karma to spare, you're absolutely right, Free Spirits would reign un-checked.
Sphynx
SR3, p 242, 1st paragraph under karma tells about not getting karma when doing the laundry unless the laundromat is in a combat zone. IMO, homeless are living their entire lives in such a zone. They are prey for just about anyone and each other. It's a constant struggle for survival, more so than say Damien Knight or Lofwyr, who going by your definition of influencing destinies should have buttloads of karma.
Your definition doesn't hold up well at all when you consider free spirits, who are living souls able to influence destinies but can't earn karma on their own. edit, but then no definition for earning karma fits free spirits very well.
Your definition doesn't hold up well at all when you consider free spirits, who are living souls able to influence destinies but can't earn karma on their own. edit, but then no definition for earning karma fits free spirits very well.
No, that's not quite what it says, and definitely not what it implies. The line of text you refer to is nothing more than a statement that you have to EARN karma, not get it for doing something like Laundry. Read page 116 of MitS to see why spirits can't manifest their own Karma and why homeless wouldn't have Karma. And yes, Damien and Lofwyr will have had buttloads of Karma, but, it's not likely they still do, since people spend karma to improve (this is Good Karma, not Karma Pool). Hell, I (and alot of other players) rarely have more than 6 karma points at a time.
Sphynx
Sphynx
Remember that one also gets good karma for exceptional roleplaying. Drifters may not get into the life-altering situations we runners get into, but they would have a small amount of karma built over the course of their lives, simply because they live and grow like anything else.
Free Spirits are something of an enigma in concerns to that. The way I've come to understand it, they cannot in themselves gain karma. They must convince others to give it to them, or they must perform rituals that gain them power. A Mantis, for instance, eats other bug spirits to gain good karma.
Free Spirits are something of an enigma in concerns to that. The way I've come to understand it, they cannot in themselves gain karma. They must convince others to give it to them, or they must perform rituals that gain them power. A Mantis, for instance, eats other bug spirits to gain good karma.
NPC Bums do earn Karma for exceptional roleplaying, but they have a special ability to burn Good Karma for extra successes in negotiating the price of beer and BTLs. A PC bum does not get this ability would have to use Karma Pool instead.
A PC bum does not get this ability would have to use Karma Pool instead.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Read page 116 of MitS to see why spirits can't manifest their own Karma and why homeless wouldn't have Karma. |
Ok, I looked at p 116, and though I know spirits don't earn their own karma I see:
| QUOTE |
| Non-player Characters: <snip> a non-player character may make a deal with a free spirit to give it Good Karma; a non-player character should have as much Good Karma as is necessary for the story, <snip> |
How did I misinterpret this?
You already have my answer to this. I agree that some NPCs would indeed have Good Karma, I never argued that. I said that a Homeless Bum and a piece of a Corp's mechanism wouldn't. 1 requisites to having the ability to gain Good Karma.
Controlling your own destiny.
Good karma is not the only way to improve yourself, schools can do that as well without the prerequisite of needing GoodKarma to learn.
Sphynx
Controlling your own destiny.
Good karma is not the only way to improve yourself, schools can do that as well without the prerequisite of needing GoodKarma to learn.
Sphynx
Actually, there wasn't a canon definition of what constitutes "Karma" except a sentence somewhere in the book that reads like "Karma may only be gained from shadowrunning."
Which is really silly, given that the rest of the world still lives, breathes and generally grows in ability.
Or we're really all in the Matrix and everyone else is just a computer simulation whose stats are altered at the whim of some mechanical overlord...hmmm...
-Siege
Which is really silly, given that the rest of the world still lives, breathes and generally grows in ability.
Or we're really all in the Matrix and everyone else is just a computer simulation whose stats are altered at the whim of some mechanical overlord...hmmm...
-Siege
Magic in the Shadows: page 116
| QUOTE |
Karma is, after all, akin to the power of a living soul to influence its own destiny. Karma is also related to life experience, and such things are unique to an embodied soul. |
That's Canon.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) | ||
Magic in the Shadows: page 116
That's Canon. Sphynx |
Influence, not control.
And life experience certainly extends to bums and corporate secretaries.
All of which suggest anyone could acquire karma.
-Siege
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