There's a particular character in a campaign I'm in, a troll mage with a security helmet decked out with all the nifty toys (among them magnification). Recently he got sniped at from behind/the side (out of his initial field of vision). The player then turned and asked whether or not he could spot where the shot came from, given that he had thermo and visual magnification to spot the heat from the muzzle plume.
Keep in mind this sniper was something like 800 meters away, and this was in a city environment with tons of other visual clutter.
So here's the question: would you allow the character in question to quickly spot the precise spot where the shot came from and, on his next action, stunbolt the sniper. Said sniper would presumably would be under cover/concealment, and nearly a klick away.
Full Version: Question regarding thermographic perception
If in a city, no. Too much other thermal to make sense out of where a thermal muzzle flare was going on. Especially that far away.
If in the countryside, possibly, depending on distance and what else was around that might interfere.
If in the countryside, possibly, depending on distance and what else was around that might interfere.
At that distance, with the time it takes to turn around, probably not. By the time he turned the hot spot was probably faded significantly. If he were looking right at general direction of a silenced shot, however, he would see the heat as clearly as most people see muzzle flare. Prevalent air temperature is also important. There's a big difference in appearance between a shot at 0C and one at 30C (the difference between flare at night and day).
Nope, not unless the sniper was using a magic superheated gun.
~J
~J
Keep in mind they work on entirely different principles:
Thermo picks up heat generated from a given source. Vision mag can't amplify the heat source; it amplifies reflected em radiation (light). If thermo was working off of IR, that would be another story.
The bigger, more advanced the thermo sensor is, the further the distance and the greater the sensitivity.
Now, detecting muzzle flashes with lowlight and vision mag works perfectly (in dark or low-light conditions).
-Siege
Thermo picks up heat generated from a given source. Vision mag can't amplify the heat source; it amplifies reflected em radiation (light). If thermo was working off of IR, that would be another story.
The bigger, more advanced the thermo sensor is, the further the distance and the greater the sensitivity.
Now, detecting muzzle flashes with lowlight and vision mag works perfectly (in dark or low-light conditions).
-Siege
Just make sure you have the Flare Compensation or you'll have a grand ol' time of seeing the guy to smack him.
I am pretty sure thermo doesn't work from that far away. It doesn't say it in the books but it makes sense. magnifying light from a distance is easy, but how do you magnify the thermographic signature of something as insignificant as a cat from 800 meters away. I say a cat because a muzzle and the body temp of a cat are about the same. You can hold the muzzle of a riffle in your hand when you fire it, you just get warm. Now if you are on auto fire, that is when it get's hot.
My rule: Nay, and the character sounds like a munchkin to boot.
My rule: Nay, and the character sounds like a munchkin to boot.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Thermo picks up heat generated from a given source. Vision mag can't amplify the heat source; it amplifies reflected em radiation (light). If thermo was working off of IR, that would be another story. |
Thermographic vision DOES work off infrared radiation. Thermographs made by Bullard use 8-14 micron infrared radiation. Check the technical spec sheets - the performance of those thermographs are laid out in excrutiating detail.
Because thermographs use infrared radiation, it's possible for someone using a thermographic vision system to see themselves in a mirror even though the mirror isn't a heat source - the mirror reflects the IR from the person. Play clip 021 at this website to see a thermographic camera looking at itself in a mirror:
http://thermalimager.bullard.com/techSpecs...es/mpeglist.cfm
If you use an appropriate set of lenses (made of visibly opaque germanium) and mirrors, you'll be able to magnify thermographic images just fine. Note the Bullard thermographs even have their lense data provided - focal length, lense size, etc.
If you'd like, Siege, I can even contact Bullard (or a thermograph manufacturer of your choice) regarding magnification systems for their cameras.
Your confusing real life with Shadworun again, tsk tsk. In SR Thermal is just that heat. The glasses pick off heat emited by a given object, not the Infared Radiation.
Really? I was under the impression that SR thermo worked off sensing heat, not IR radiation.
Then yes, magnification should certainly work with thermo.
Now, here's the quick question: would thermo pick up residual body heat from, say, someone sitting in a chair?
-Siege
Then yes, magnification should certainly work with thermo.
Now, here's the quick question: would thermo pick up residual body heat from, say, someone sitting in a chair?
-Siege
If he's willing to spend a simple action to "Observe in Detail", give him a perception check to notice the guy. You, as the GM, take into account any modifiers from thermo, cover, camo, how much area the character has to search, etc. and give him the roll.
For example, character one gets shot by a sniper. Character 1 gets an intelligence check (as a Free Action) to figure out the shot came from somewhere down Main Street. He then spends a simple action to Observe in Detail and try to spot the sniper, but the sniper could be anywhere from 40m to 300m away, there are at least 50 windows, people running around at ground level, and vehicles going around. Target Number: 18 (yes, I pulled that number out of my ass, but that's what GM's do.
).
I wouldn't allow the use of the vision mag until he spots a likely source since it would take ages to scan the entire street looking through the magnification.
For example, character one gets shot by a sniper. Character 1 gets an intelligence check (as a Free Action) to figure out the shot came from somewhere down Main Street. He then spends a simple action to Observe in Detail and try to spot the sniper, but the sniper could be anywhere from 40m to 300m away, there are at least 50 windows, people running around at ground level, and vehicles going around. Target Number: 18 (yes, I pulled that number out of my ass, but that's what GM's do.
).I wouldn't allow the use of the vision mag until he spots a likely source since it would take ages to scan the entire street looking through the magnification.
SR Thermo doesn't work on infrared? Umm...
| QUOTE (Cannon Companion @ p. 35) |
| Flashlight ... Low-light and infrared versions of the flashlight are also available. The low-light version uses soft red light to illuminate an area for characters with low-light vision. The infrared version provides illumination for characters with thermographic vision. |
[edit] More direct evidience:
| QUOTE (Man and Machine @ p. 49) |
| Thermographic Vision Thermographic vision reads the heat (infrared energy) emitted by a target. |
[/edit]
Well theres the problem, heat and IR are not always the same thing. In the service I wore low-light goggles called NODS. They were lowlight goggles (they amplified starlight). However, they had a IR attachment that if you turned on acted as a flashlight. So that's real life, not SR.
In SR I have seperated the two, but I must have missed the ref to IR.
I guess it is I who has confused SR and Realife
In SR I have seperated the two, but I must have missed the ref to IR.
I guess it is I who has confused SR and Realife
IRL, all low-light optics are also sensitive to part of the IR spectrum. It is standard practice for soldiers to use tiny IR lights to operate in darkness. Most night vision goggles even have a little IR light built in.
[edit]
Synchronicity, eh, Shadow?
[/edit]
[edit]
Synchronicity, eh, Shadow?
[/edit]
In my last SR session, I made one of the characters navigate a sewer through the thermo scope of his sniper rifle because he only had Low light eyes, and didn't bring a light.
Here is a decent article on Thermographic vs. Infrared
It discusses the differences between "infrared night vision" and "infrared thermography". The quick breakdown is reflected vs. emitted infrared light.
Here are a couple sites with interesting infrared and thermogram images:
Outdoor shot of powerplant
Various shots
IMO, I use thermo as a thermogram which allows the character to see somewhat in complete darkness (which is why thermographic gets only a +4/+2 in complete darkness), unlike normal "infrared night vision" which is really low-light vision.
It discusses the differences between "infrared night vision" and "infrared thermography". The quick breakdown is reflected vs. emitted infrared light.
Here are a couple sites with interesting infrared and thermogram images:
Outdoor shot of powerplant
Various shots
IMO, I use thermo as a thermogram which allows the character to see somewhat in complete darkness (which is why thermographic gets only a +4/+2 in complete darkness), unlike normal "infrared night vision" which is really low-light vision.
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| Well theres the problem, heat and IR are not always the same thing. In the service I wore low-light goggles called NODS. They were lowlight goggles (they amplified starlight). However, they had a IR attachment that if you turned on acted as a flashlight. So that's real life, not SR. In SR I have seperated the two, but I must have missed the ref to IR. I guess it is I who has confused SR and Realife |
Speaking real life here...
Low light goggles use a different band of infrared light than thermographic goggles.
Light amp systems favor the "near infrared" (i.e., nearly visible light) range. I've seen 1200nm referenced for light amp systems, compared to the ~300- to 700nm of visible light and the 8000-14000nm of the thermographic cameras I referenced above.
An object hot enough to glow for light amp goggles would be verging on red hot, like the exhaust pipe of a helicopter's turbine engine. (Or moonlight - which is reflected from the very hot sun - or starlight, which also comes from very hot objects.)
Thermographic goggles are attempting to capture the infrared light of much colder objects, so they work on longer wavelengths (cooler object, longer wavelength of emissions) and wouldn't necessarily work with something compatible with light amp goggles.
To make an analogy, light amp goggles only see the "violet" of the infrared rainbow, while thermographs use "orange and red" bands...and the "rainbow" of infrared is much, much broader than visible light. It's quite possible to find a light source that will work with one of them (like your light amp goggles), but not the other. A lot of LEDs found on TV remote controls are probably in the correct range of emission for light amp goggles.
If you look through the thermograph video clips I link, you'll see several examples of shadows being cast. There are light sources for thermographs, too (in those videos: fires). I'm sure in Shadowrun you can find a mid- to deep-IR light source to act as a flashlight for thermographic vision systems.
[edit] And thanks to TinkerGnome quoting the Cannon Companion, you can even have a canon reference for purchasing those IR flashlights for thermographs.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Really? I was under the impression that SR thermo worked off sensing heat, not IR radiation. |
Clarified by TinkerGnome.
| QUOTE |
| Then yes, magnification should certainly work with thermo. Now, here's the quick question: would thermo pick up residual body heat from, say, someone sitting in a chair? |
Absolutely. There's several examples of residual body heat - and even body cooling of hotter-than-human surfaces - in those Bullard video clips.
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