Iwas at the range yesterday and looking in the shop afterward. I'm thinking of picking up a Mataba but saw what is beyond doubt the dumbest thing i've ever seen. The old record was a snub nosed .50 magnum. This was even better.
A revolver with a 2 inch barrell but a really large cylinder. I asked the man behind the conuter what it was? rifle rounds? No it was a hand shot gun with a 2 inch barrel and a choke. He was grinning dumbly at me. I asked "What happens to the recoil?"
"You got it" was the response.
Other than pressing it into someone's back and pulling the trigger can anyone see a purpose behind this? I know the street sweeper/roomsweeper have been a part of SR since the first book but those are more sawed off shot guns, this is a small handgun.
Full Version: useless real life hand guns
For when you care enough to send a very personal message...
I did think of a second use, you could shove it into their gut.
I did think of a second use, you could shove it into their gut.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| Other than pressing it into someone's back and pulling the trigger can anyone see a purpose behind this? |
Got it in one. Not useless at all, just of limited usefulness.
~J
Um... a "snub nosed .50 magnum"... I've never seen such a thing. Are you perhaps thinking of Ruger’s Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull?
The .454 Casull is a big round (the cartridge is close to a AA battery in size), and the Alaskan is a relatively small gun... But it is controlable if you do your part.
The .500 S&W is a cartridge is potent, as is the .50 AE... But I know of nothing that qualifies as a "snub nose" that fires either round.
Finally, under the National Firearms Act (or NFA... If you want to be technical, Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code, 26 U.S.C. § 5801 through 26 U.S.C. § 5872
) immposes a statutory excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of all Title II weapons and mandates the registration of those weapons. Among the weapons listed are shotguns with a barrel length less than 18 inches (457 mm)... Not that they aren't out there, but most gun-dealers don't stock them...
And a 2" barrel? I'm sorry, but that smells of bull droppings. Most shotgun shells sold today are between 2 3/4" and 3"... Are you sure this wasn't for use with rat-shot?
The .454 Casull is a big round (the cartridge is close to a AA battery in size), and the Alaskan is a relatively small gun... But it is controlable if you do your part.
The .500 S&W is a cartridge is potent, as is the .50 AE... But I know of nothing that qualifies as a "snub nose" that fires either round.
Finally, under the National Firearms Act (or NFA... If you want to be technical, Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code, 26 U.S.C. § 5801 through 26 U.S.C. § 5872
) immposes a statutory excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of all Title II weapons and mandates the registration of those weapons. Among the weapons listed are shotguns with a barrel length less than 18 inches (457 mm)... Not that they aren't out there, but most gun-dealers don't stock them... And a 2" barrel? I'm sorry, but that smells of bull droppings. Most shotgun shells sold today are between 2 3/4" and 3"... Are you sure this wasn't for use with rat-shot?
The shell would be inside the cylinder, giving it an effective ~5-inch barrel, unless I'm very mistaken.
~J
~J
I woulden't want to shoot it, though.
Hell, if you're shoving a gun into someone's guts/back and pulling the trigger, you've got them dead to rights anyhow, don't matter what you're using.
Hell, if you're shoving a gun into someone's guts/back and pulling the trigger, you've got them dead to rights anyhow, don't matter what you're using.
Trolls.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Trolls. ~J |
If it's a troll, I don't think it matters what kind of gun you're using, even if it is a .12 gauge shotgun shell.
I got the impression it was for a shell, not a slug, so it woulden't be much use for trolls anyway.
Yeah, most likely for shot shells, on account of it having a choke. It would indeed be very ineffective against trolls -- you'd be better off with a "Light Pistol". If not for the choke, I'd have suggested it was a Thunder 5 -- there are several similar revolvers with longer barrels, capable of firing both .45 LC and .410.
Thain: Smith & Wesson makes an X-frame model 500ES "Emergency Survival" gun with a 2-3/4" barrel.
It would indeed be very ineffective against trolls -- you'd be better off with a "Light Pistol". If not for the choke, I'd have suggested it was a Thunder 5 -- there are several similar revolvers with longer barrels, capable of firing both .45 LC and .410.Thain: Smith & Wesson makes an X-frame model 500ES "Emergency Survival" gun with a 2-3/4" barrel.
Was it 12 gauge or 16 gauge? How heavy was it? What kind of load did it use?
Depending on the answers to that, it could very well be as useable at normal pistol ranges as any very heavy handgun.
Though what you'd need it for that a large caliber revolver couldn't handle just as well is a good question... Close-range defense against bear attacks?
Depending on the answers to that, it could very well be as useable at normal pistol ranges as any very heavy handgun.
Though what you'd need it for that a large caliber revolver couldn't handle just as well is a good question... Close-range defense against bear attacks?
I've seen a pistol sort of like you describe, but it was a .410 shotgun. It had a snub barrel and a four shot revolving cylender. Recoil would still have to be a bitch though. A search did not turn up that one, but I did find this one.
45/410 pistol
45/410 pistol
Damn, Thane beat me too it. I suspect those get past the regulation on shotguns with short barrels as they are technically '45 caliber' pistols... that can hold a 410 round. Didn't check his link to see if he REALLY was talking the same thing I am.
I've seen single and double barral break action guns with teeny tiny profiles for sale, generally around a hundred bucks. Disposable stupidity at it's finest. Murderous at close ranges, but I wouldn't want to try it.
I've seen single and double barral break action guns with teeny tiny profiles for sale, generally around a hundred bucks. Disposable stupidity at it's finest. Murderous at close ranges, but I wouldn't want to try it.
Austere Emancipator: Even with its shortened barrel, an X-frame hardly qualifies as a snub nose.
"Rat-Shot" or "Snake-Shot" is where you have very small lead shot (usually #12 shot) loaded into a cartridge (not a shotgun shell!) most commonly .22 Long Rifle or a pistol or revolver cartridge. Using rat-shot cartridges allows one to convert a handgun or rifle into a small shotgun, suitable for short-range use.
But is is not legally or technically a shotgun.
"Rat-Shot" or "Snake-Shot" is where you have very small lead shot (usually #12 shot) loaded into a cartridge (not a shotgun shell!) most commonly .22 Long Rifle or a pistol or revolver cartridge. Using rat-shot cartridges allows one to convert a handgun or rifle into a small shotgun, suitable for short-range use.
But is is not legally or technically a shotgun.
Nor is it useful against anything other than it's designated prey of choice - rats or snakes.
It was pretty useful against Cliff Baxter.
~J
~J
Most things are when you press the muzzle against your temple -- including blanks.
2.75" for a .500 S&W makes for the same barrel length/bore diameter as 2" for a .38 Spl, plus it definitely has the looks of a snubnose.
2.75" for a .500 S&W makes for the same barrel length/bore diameter as 2" for a .38 Spl, plus it definitely has the looks of a snubnose.
Guns don't kill people, stupidity does.
Yeah, but you aren't going to fit an X-frame in your pocket. My J-frame is comfortably there as I type this... To my mind, and I would think most folk, the term "snub nose" refers to a concealable weapon... Typically a .38 J-frame.
Besides, even if I concede the point and call the X-Frame a snub nose, I have to take exception to the fact that the OP called it a "useless reall ife[sic] hand gun." Now, bear in mind I have no hands on experince with the 500ES... However, the .454 Casull Alaskan is, more or less, built for the same purpose with similar power and performance. (We can argue the nitty gritty over at The High Road, for an SR forum I think "big bullet, little gun." is good enough.
)
Anyhow, the Alaskan has its uses. Chief among them: mountain lions, bears, and well... bears. (Oh my!)
Now, as luck would have it, their aren't many bears bigger than black bears in Michigan. Even in the Yoop... a .357 is sufficent for me, most of the time, when I'm out and about. However, a good friend of mine who spends his spare time in Alaska's bear country has used his .454 Alaskan to save his life... he doesn't beleive he killed the Grizzly, but he knows it didn't kill him.
The only useless gun is the one in the safe when you need it.
Yeah, but you aren't going to fit an X-frame in your pocket. My J-frame is comfortably there as I type this... To my mind, and I would think most folk, the term "snub nose" refers to a concealable weapon... Typically a .38 J-frame.
Besides, even if I concede the point and call the X-Frame a snub nose, I have to take exception to the fact that the OP called it a "useless reall ife[sic] hand gun." Now, bear in mind I have no hands on experince with the 500ES... However, the .454 Casull Alaskan is, more or less, built for the same purpose with similar power and performance. (We can argue the nitty gritty over at The High Road, for an SR forum I think "big bullet, little gun." is good enough.
)Anyhow, the Alaskan has its uses. Chief among them: mountain lions, bears, and well... bears. (Oh my!)
Now, as luck would have it, their aren't many bears bigger than black bears in Michigan. Even in the Yoop... a .357 is sufficent for me, most of the time, when I'm out and about. However, a good friend of mine who spends his spare time in Alaska's bear country has used his .454 Alaskan to save his life... he doesn't beleive he killed the Grizzly, but he knows it didn't kill him.
The only useless gun is the one in the safe when you need it.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 30 2007, 06:03 PM) |
| Most things are when you press the muzzle against your temple -- including blanks. |
All this talk makes me think of an old revolver I saw in some book. The gun did not have a barrel, but it did have a nasty knife attached to it. Looked like you stabbed the guy and then pulled the trigger. Yeah, real up close and personal.
That sounds like the Gunblades from the Final Fantasy VIII game.
Those were swords with a firearm-like device attached. Rather than firing a bullet it used a powder charge to create a shockwave through the blade. You pulled the trigger right as you struck your target, in theory causing significantly more damage than a sword strike alone.
Yeah, I thought the idea to be a little iffy too.
-karma
Those were swords with a firearm-like device attached. Rather than firing a bullet it used a powder charge to create a shockwave through the blade. You pulled the trigger right as you struck your target, in theory causing significantly more damage than a sword strike alone.
Yeah, I thought the idea to be a little iffy too.
-karma
Oh no, I don't mean the gunblades from those FF games, these were turn of the century and earlier type guns. It was for use in the urban environment and it was that you stabbed the guy and then pulled the trigger.
And the gunblades from the FF games are inspired by real life swords that had a barrel running along it, they've even had ones with an axe blade built to it. Though, it wasn't used for the shockwave effect... Geez, is that what the game used it for? I don't play them and I've always wondered the point of the stupid... argh, that just doesn't make sense nor does it sound efficient.
And the gunblades from the FF games are inspired by real life swords that had a barrel running along it, they've even had ones with an axe blade built to it. Though, it wasn't used for the shockwave effect... Geez, is that what the game used it for? I don't play them and I've always wondered the point of the stupid... argh, that just doesn't make sense nor does it sound efficient.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Nor is it useful against anything other than it's designated prey of choice - rats or snakes. |
holy cow. the box o truth guys have been busy. so much for getting any work done...
Squaresoft did not invent the concept of a gun-built-into-a-sword (except for the shockwave aspect which is just laughable) and historically some early flintlock and wheellock pistols actually were constructed as gun-swords, with the barrel of the pistol attached to the side of the blade of a shortsword or dagger.
Examples of these weapons can be found in the armoury of Wawel Castle (Kraków, Poland), and if memory serves, it was at the Tower of London's armor where I saw a handaxe-combo-flintlock. There also existed pin-fire cartridge gun-swords being produced as far as into the 1800s, though in limited quantity. There was even a US patent filed on the design of one such weapon, although I do not have access to my notes to give you the number.
In principle, think of them as a bayonet in reverse. A modern rifle has multiple shots, and a stabby-bit (thats a technical term, folks!) on the end. Most of the time, you want to shoot-shoot-shoot... but if they get too close, you go and poke them.
A gun-in-a-sword is suppossed to do the opposite. You've got a sword, and you try to slash/stab/chop the other guy... but if he gets too far away, blam-o!
Of course, its just plain easier to carry a sidearm and a sword, or a longgun and a knife, then some funky, finky, expensive hybrid.
But they look cool!
Replica 17th century French Cutlass, with pistol: http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/r...ry_1932_4496933
Examples of these weapons can be found in the armoury of Wawel Castle (Kraków, Poland), and if memory serves, it was at the Tower of London's armor where I saw a handaxe-combo-flintlock. There also existed pin-fire cartridge gun-swords being produced as far as into the 1800s, though in limited quantity. There was even a US patent filed on the design of one such weapon, although I do not have access to my notes to give you the number.
In principle, think of them as a bayonet in reverse. A modern rifle has multiple shots, and a stabby-bit (thats a technical term, folks!) on the end. Most of the time, you want to shoot-shoot-shoot... but if they get too close, you go and poke them.
A gun-in-a-sword is suppossed to do the opposite. You've got a sword, and you try to slash/stab/chop the other guy... but if he gets too far away, blam-o!
Of course, its just plain easier to carry a sidearm and a sword, or a longgun and a knife, then some funky, finky, expensive hybrid.
But they look cool!
Replica 17th century French Cutlass, with pistol: http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/r...ry_1932_4496933
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Jan 30 2007, 07:14 PM) |
| Oh no, I don't mean the gunblades from those FF games, these were turn of the century and earlier type guns. It was for use in the urban environment and it was that you stabbed the guy and then pulled the trigger. And the gunblades from the FF games are inspired by real life swords that had a barrel running along it, they've even had ones with an axe blade built to it. Though, it wasn't used for the shockwave effect... Geez, is that what the game used it for? I don't play them and I've always wondered the point of the stupid... argh, that just doesn't make sense nor does it sound efficient. |
Ah, your "The gun did not have a barrel" bit had me confused a little. I didn't mean to imply that Squaresoft invented the gun-with-blade concept, but just the barrel-less variation. Ironically, most prop gunblade replicas I've seen for sale actually HAVE a barrel - most likely the manufacturers didn't bother paying too much attention to the actual appearance in the game, and just molded the sword shape over a stock pistol.
I'm not sure those historical guns were specifically for "stab then shoot" - seems like just "stab and/or shoot, whichever you need at the time". I've seen them built into shields and maces as well. In any case they never really seemed to get popular - the fact that using your firearm as a melee weapon did horrible things to the aim was probably part of that.
And as I said, the FF version was kinda iffy. A little like a vibro-blade but with a single pulse rather than a continuous oscillation.
Personally, I'm waiting for a chainsaw attachment for assault rifles.
=)
-karma
| QUOTE (Thain) |
| Squaresoft did not invent the concept of a gun-built-into-a-sword (except for the shockwave aspect which is just laughable) and historically some early flintlock and wheellock pistols actually were constructed as gun-swords, with the barrel of the pistol attached to the side of the blade of a shortsword or dagger. |
Gun/blade combinations were also popular at the times when guns weren't reliable. You could try to shoot your opponent as they were closing in. If the gun fired great, if you hit him. If it didn't fire or you missed, you still have a blade in your hand. As guns became more reliable, those weapons generally dissappeared and people carried a backup knife, hatchet or whatever that could be used as a weapon or a tool.
I've seen pics of a ww1 Webley with a blade attached to the barrell. damn silly looknig and the fact it was abandoned shows how popular it was.
| QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 30 2007, 10:27 AM) |
| Um... a "snub nosed .50 magnum"... I've never seen such a thing. Are you perhaps thinking of Ruger’s Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull? |
Nope, a Smith & Wesson .500 magnum with virtually no barrel. My thought when I saw it was "great if you're mugged by a hump backed whale. "
That was my 'you gotta be kidding me' hand gun until I saw the shotgun/pistol. Like I said it's not sawed off, there's no way to use two hands unless you count a tea cup grip but there was sod all to absorb recoil. even the guy behind the counter agreed. The shock goes right to your hands. (arms, shoulders, back, the person behind you etc)
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) | ||
I've seen pics of a ww1 Webley with a blade attached to the barrell. damn silly looknig and the fact it was abandoned shows how popular it was.
Nope, a Smith & Wesson .500 magnum with virtually no barrel. My thought when I saw it was "great if you're mugged by a hump backed whale. " That was my 'you gotta be kidding me' hand gun until I saw the shotgun/pistol. Like I said it's not sawed off, there's no way to use two hands unless you count a tea cup grip but there was sod all to absorb recoil. even the guy behind the counter agreed. The shock goes right to your hands. (arms, shoulders, back, the person behind you etc) |
I think that's the pistol that you're supposed to use with a gyromount.
Then there is the pistol i would love to own. I could see this pistol getting a grin and a dumb response.
Lemat
And if they have it... gimme a call
Lemat
And if they have it... gimme a call
I've actually seen one of those in use at a CAS event, it was part of a demonstration and not a competitive shoot (but god that would be awesome for three-gun!)
The shotshell had a visible recoil, no doubt about it, but it was still controlable. In fact, I'd say no worse than firing some magnum rounds. Of course, I was not the one shooting it, and when asked the owner said it wasn't too bad.
It's only got the one shot, so its not like you need to worry about reaccquiring the target within a MoA.
The shotshell had a visible recoil, no doubt about it, but it was still controlable. In fact, I'd say no worse than firing some magnum rounds. Of course, I was not the one shooting it, and when asked the owner said it wasn't too bad.
It's only got the one shot, so its not like you need to worry about reaccquiring the target within a MoA.
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
| All this talk makes me think of an old revolver I saw in some book. The gun did not have a barrel, but it did have a nasty knife attached to it. Looked like you stabbed the guy and then pulled the trigger. Yeah, real up close and personal. |
I believe I've seen that revolver as well in a book called Arms and Armor several years ago. It was a part of a picture/reference book series (other series is stuff like "Chemistry" or "Art").
The revolver itself was very small (derringer sized) without a barrel. Below the exit for the round was a small knife. I believe the idea was this made for a very concealable derringer/knife combo where the lack of range mattered less. Supposedly it was used by Spanish rebels around the early 1900s or something like that (it's been many years since I read about it). I've always debated about giving it Shadowrun stats.
Ah, someone else who's seen it. yeah, I saw it in some large book in my high school's library when I was bored in the mornings before class, a looong time ago.
| QUOTE (TenTonHammer) |
| Then there is the pistol i would love to own. I could see this pistol getting a grin and a dumb response. Lemat And if they have it... gimme a call |
Actually thats a pretty cool little gun. For the time period having the ability to fire 10 rounds with out reloading? Hell we have automatics today that don't do that.
little? can we get some dimensions on that thing? it's got to be enourmous.
in fact you could probably call it "Ye Olde Desert Eagle"
in fact you could probably call it "Ye Olde Desert Eagle"
| QUOTE (Lindt) | ||
Actually thats a pretty cool little gun. For the time period having the ability to fire 10 rounds with out reloading? Hell we have automatics today that don't do that. |
Why does everyone assume autoloaders have high capacity? The M1911 only holds seven rounds, and it won WWII for us.
That's the first time I've ever heard that claim. Can someone clarify whether or not the M1911 was significant to the Great Patriotic War? That seems odd for a pistol.
~J
~J
Was at a gunshow myself. Saw that revolver, picked up the catalog. Not that I'd spend my money on it, they do have a # of nice pistols though.
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/48086257/
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/48086257/
| QUOTE (Fix-it) |
| little? can we get some dimensions on that thing? it's got to be enourmous. in fact you could probably call it "Ye Olde Desert Eagle" |
I wasent using little in the physical sense. Its a big handgun, I was using it as a figure of speech. You dont call something a cute hugeass handgun.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| That's the first time I've ever heard that claim. Can someone clarify whether or not the M1911 was significant to the Great Patriotic War? That seems odd for a pistol. ~J |
Hyperbole; [hahy-pur-buh-lee] –noun Rhetoric. the opposite of understatement, is a type of figurative language that uses deliberate exaggeration for the sake of emphasis or comic effect.
"[The M1 Garand is] the greatest implement of battle ever devised." -Gen. G. Patton
Yeah, I got that. That's why I switched to "significant", because it still seems weird to me that a pistol would be that important.
~J
~J
How about it was still US army issue in WWII, and the US helped win that war?
The most famouns John Browning designed Colt pistol (considered a holy relic by many gun-nuts) was formally adopted by the Army on March 29, 1911, thus gaining its designation, M1911 (Model of 1911). It was adopted by the Navy and Marine Corps in 1913.
It was beloved by soldiers of the First and Second World War. After WWII, the M1911 continued to be a mainstay of the United States Armed Forces in the Korean War and the Vietnam War, until the Army bagantophase it out for the M9 in 1985, although was even used during Desert Storm in some U.S. Army units.
By the early 1990s, most M1911A1s had been replaced by the M9, though many remain in use by special units. The United States Marine Corps in particular resisted the change-over, and they were able to win the right to continue use of the M1911A1 as a general issue sidearm, so did many smaller special groups within the armed forces. For its part, the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) issued a requirement for a .45 ACP handgun, and the Hechlar-Koch weapon they got was based, in large part, on the venerable M1911.
So, the USMC has used this one gun for 93 years. The rest of the military used it for close to eighty. Scuttlebut is that the Pentagon is shopping around for a replacment to the M9, and a return to .45APC is likely... and Colt might very well win the contract.More than likly, it will be another manufacturer, but if it fires .45APC, it'll be based on the M1911 to one degree or another.
The M1911A1 design is favored by a large number of police SWAT teams throughout the US, many regular duty police carry them, and it is a holy item to many, many civilians.
It is a significant firearm; and in as much as any sidearm can be considered important in American military history, then the M1911 ranks up there with the Colt Single-Action Army, better known as the Peacemaker.
Its true, bombers and battleships, artillery and mortars win battles. But grunts on the ground, with mud, grenades, rifles, pistols, and foul language hold the ground. Holding the ground wins wars.
It was beloved by soldiers of the First and Second World War. After WWII, the M1911 continued to be a mainstay of the United States Armed Forces in the Korean War and the Vietnam War, until the Army bagantophase it out for the M9 in 1985, although was even used during Desert Storm in some U.S. Army units.
By the early 1990s, most M1911A1s had been replaced by the M9, though many remain in use by special units. The United States Marine Corps in particular resisted the change-over, and they were able to win the right to continue use of the M1911A1 as a general issue sidearm, so did many smaller special groups within the armed forces. For its part, the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) issued a requirement for a .45 ACP handgun, and the Hechlar-Koch weapon they got was based, in large part, on the venerable M1911.
So, the USMC has used this one gun for 93 years. The rest of the military used it for close to eighty. Scuttlebut is that the Pentagon is shopping around for a replacment to the M9, and a return to .45APC is likely... and Colt might very well win the contract.More than likly, it will be another manufacturer, but if it fires .45APC, it'll be based on the M1911 to one degree or another.
The M1911A1 design is favored by a large number of police SWAT teams throughout the US, many regular duty police carry them, and it is a holy item to many, many civilians.
It is a significant firearm; and in as much as any sidearm can be considered important in American military history, then the M1911 ranks up there with the Colt Single-Action Army, better known as the Peacemaker.
Its true, bombers and battleships, artillery and mortars win battles. But grunts on the ground, with mud, grenades, rifles, pistols, and foul language hold the ground. Holding the ground wins wars.
It's kind of wild to think that the .45ACP which was designed in 1908 will be 100 years old next year, and it is still one of the most prolific cartridges in existance. Look at how many other chamberings have come and gone in that time, and it really puts it into perspective.
So what does that say about the 9x19mm and the 7.62x54mmR?
silence! everyone knows that the 9mm Parabellum was invented in 1985, using the advanced technology of the Star Wars program!
to be fair, 9x19mm just sounds more high-tech for some reason. probably because of how it was introduced for the 1985 changeover--they threw out a lot of buzzwords about penetration and hydrostatic shock, which are still circulating today.
to be fair, 9x19mm just sounds more high-tech for some reason. probably because of how it was introduced for the 1985 changeover--they threw out a lot of buzzwords about penetration and hydrostatic shock, which are still circulating today.
It's because of the use of the metric system. Inches lend an archaic touch to things.
~J
~J
The 9 mm Parabellum pistol cartridge (9 x 19 mm Luger, 9 x 19 mm NATO) was introduced in the late 1890's by the German weapons manufacturer Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM).
It was just as prominent in WWI and WWII as the .45 ACP... albeit on the wrong side.
It was just as prominent in WWI and WWII as the .45 ACP... albeit on the wrong side.
Well, comparing the .45acp to 9x19mm is a great way to start vicious flamewars on most firearms sites but I will say this:
The 9x19mm is a great SMG round. For some reason the 9mm loves the longer barrels used by SMG's and pistol caliber carbines. Beretta makes a REALLY attractive carbine in this chambering that actually shares the same magazines with their ultra popular 92 series handguns. Hell, I bought my Mom a 92FS for christmas and she loves it.
The biggest critcism you see leveled at the 9mm is its use as a military round, a role in which it is restricted to FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) ammuniton. When its used with premium hollowpoint ammunition (Hydrashock, or my fave the HST) its a respectable defensive chambering. Springfields new EMP combines the best of both worlds, taking the 1911 action and scaling it a bit for the 9mm, and packadgeing it in a tiny but well designed carry piece.
The .45acp is a man-stopper. Most of the military interest in the round comes from the fact that even FMJ ammo blows big holes in stuff. Loaded with premium hollowpoints, this is a devastating caliber of weapon whos closest rivals are the 10mm Auto (mildly rare) and the .357 Sig (a .40 necked to accept 9mm projectiles) both of which are recoil heavy hot loads. The .45 offers stopping power without an excess of recoil (its not a sharp kick, more of a push) and its only real drawback is the relatively low capacity of weapons chambered in it. Enter Springfield again, with the XD .45ACP which holds 14 rounds. Damn I sound like a commercial for them...
On a side note the 7.62x54r is an antique that has found continued life in a few niches. Most prominant of these (in my mind at least) is the SVD Druganov marksmans rifle (not a true sniper rifle if you understant soviet doctrine) and some medium machineguns mostly used on vehicles. Still, Mosin Nagant rifles are cheap and plentiful, much like the ammo, making it a popular sporting round.
The 9x19mm is a great SMG round. For some reason the 9mm loves the longer barrels used by SMG's and pistol caliber carbines. Beretta makes a REALLY attractive carbine in this chambering that actually shares the same magazines with their ultra popular 92 series handguns. Hell, I bought my Mom a 92FS for christmas and she loves it.
The biggest critcism you see leveled at the 9mm is its use as a military round, a role in which it is restricted to FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) ammuniton. When its used with premium hollowpoint ammunition (Hydrashock, or my fave the HST) its a respectable defensive chambering. Springfields new EMP combines the best of both worlds, taking the 1911 action and scaling it a bit for the 9mm, and packadgeing it in a tiny but well designed carry piece.
The .45acp is a man-stopper. Most of the military interest in the round comes from the fact that even FMJ ammo blows big holes in stuff. Loaded with premium hollowpoints, this is a devastating caliber of weapon whos closest rivals are the 10mm Auto (mildly rare) and the .357 Sig (a .40 necked to accept 9mm projectiles) both of which are recoil heavy hot loads. The .45 offers stopping power without an excess of recoil (its not a sharp kick, more of a push) and its only real drawback is the relatively low capacity of weapons chambered in it. Enter Springfield again, with the XD .45ACP which holds 14 rounds. Damn I sound like a commercial for them...
On a side note the 7.62x54r is an antique that has found continued life in a few niches. Most prominant of these (in my mind at least) is the SVD Druganov marksmans rifle (not a true sniper rifle if you understant soviet doctrine) and some medium machineguns mostly used on vehicles. Still, Mosin Nagant rifles are cheap and plentiful, much like the ammo, making it a popular sporting round.
Hydra-shok doesn't seem to perform nearly as well as it should. Unless they've done something to the design since 2002, I would absolutely not suggest them -- back then at least they had serious trouble expanding properly after passing through clothing. HST seems very nice, however.
With a projectile diameter 11.3% smaller, I'd say the .40 S&W is a pretty close contender for the .45 ACP as well.
With a projectile diameter 11.3% smaller, I'd say the .40 S&W is a pretty close contender for the .45 ACP as well.
| QUOTE (HullBreach) |
| On a side note the 7.62x54r is an antique that has found continued life in a few niches. |
Where there's AKs, there's PKMs. I'd wager the 7.62x54mmR is killing as much people worldwide as the .45 ACP is.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
| Hydra-shok doesn't seem to perform nearly as well as it should. Unless they've done something to the design since 2002, I would absolutely not suggest them -- back then at least they had serious trouble expanding properly after passing through clothing. HST seems very nice, however. With a projectile diameter 11.3% smaller, I'd say the .40 S&W is a pretty close contender for the .45 ACP as well.
Where there's AKs, there's PKMs. I'd wager the 7.62x54mmR is killing as much people worldwide as the .45 ACP is. |
I live in Florida, so most of the year heavy clothing isn't a big concern. When I was still in Michigan I almost exclusively used Ranger SXT's before discovering the HST.
The .40 is a so-so round in my opinion. Due to the sectional desnsity and mass distrobution of most of the projectiles availible in this caliber, penetration through intervening materials, car doors and automotive glass in particular, is problematic. It is also one of the easiest rounds to defeat with body armor.
AK's use 7.62x39mm(Ak-47) or 5.45x39mm (Ak-74). The 7.62x54r is a much larger round with a rimmed case.
Yeah, bringing up the performance difference between calibers is a guarunteed flame-jihad on most firearm related messageboards. Personally, I fall into the camp that holds shot placement is far more important than the size of the round.
9mm Parabellum, .45 ACP, .38 Special, .22LR or .50BMG... all can and will kill you if the guy pulling the trigger does his job right. I have a Smith & Wesson 9mm, loaded, for household defense (if I don't get to the shotgun first). I carry a S&W snub-nosed .38 for personal protection. And as soon as I have the spare cash, a M1911 and a Walther PPK are going to be in the collection.
I feel more than confident that any of them will do the job. Half the world's military, civilians, and police use 9mm... and they do just fine. Half the world's military, civilians, and police use .45... and they do just fine.
But, without a doubt, I'll take a long-gun over a handgun whenever I have the choice!
9mm Parabellum, .45 ACP, .38 Special, .22LR or .50BMG... all can and will kill you if the guy pulling the trigger does his job right. I have a Smith & Wesson 9mm, loaded, for household defense (if I don't get to the shotgun first). I carry a S&W snub-nosed .38 for personal protection. And as soon as I have the spare cash, a M1911 and a Walther PPK are going to be in the collection.
I feel more than confident that any of them will do the job. Half the world's military, civilians, and police use 9mm... and they do just fine. Half the world's military, civilians, and police use .45... and they do just fine.
But, without a doubt, I'll take a long-gun over a handgun whenever I have the choice!
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