I thought about this reading the "high charisma" thread, and thought about my current PC (who observes all the meets but has yet to be identified as a team member)
say I play a retarded Troll (or just one that is smart enough to realize he'd mess up any meets and throw his and his friends reputation downt eh toilet...
so i buy him a rating 6 loyalty contact, who goes to the meets for him...
in his place...
as him...
maybe he sits back, and watches for a specific signal (saying "repeat" three times, means I rush in and kill everyone I can for example).
the main Idea is ... his reputation is tied to his name and his face is tied to his best friend.
what are your Ideas on how to make it work? or even if it's viable?
Full Version: pinch negotiator
Sounds perfectly viable...until they find out that your face isn't actually you.
I wouldn't allow it in my game.
It might work on a case-by-case basis using the "contact" rules, but then:
1) You would have to buy his connection and loyalty (see #2)
2) You would have to convince him to go in your place (using Negotiation+Charisma+Loyalty for the check each time)
3) You would have to pay him appropriately (probably more each time). Consultants charge a lot per hour. Lawyers charge even more; which is kind of what he is at that point.
4) Then there wouid be an upper limit to how many scenes/adventures you can bring him in. You can't use every contact in every run.
5) There might be misallaneous risks and problems associated with going through a contact. You might put the contact at risk. He might mess up. He might not negotiate as hard for you since it doesn't really matter to him. He might not respond well to threats or intimidation. Someone might buy him out. He could get sick one day. He might be busy the night of the meet. Who knows? (I wouldn't play this up to much, but some GMs might - especially if you over-use the contact.)
6) In addition to paying him appropriately, you'd have to owe him favors each time he helped you. That's a lot of favors, man.
While I like it when players use their contacts creatively and come up with some creative plans, I won't give anything for free just for having a clever way to word it. Usually, I'll need the player to explain why EVERYONE doesn't do this, and if there's a unique choice or tradeoff that he's making, I'll go for it. But just like he expects to recieve the benefit, I expect to have the tradeoff happen and effect the game. Not an occasional thing either - just as reliable as the benefit. Now, of course, some of this is inherently off-traded already since you're paying BP for the contact, and that's taken into consideration.
If you were playing in my game, djinni, I would suggest you pay for your Charisma regularly (10 points each) because you're still expecting to use your Charisma normally. But then I'd offer you a 10 BP drawback for only being able to use your Charisma in limited circumstances (when you're buddy is replacing you), and then I wouldn't consider the above restrictions (except #5, occasionally, when I feel it would make the game more fun).
It might work on a case-by-case basis using the "contact" rules, but then:
1) You would have to buy his connection and loyalty (see #2)
2) You would have to convince him to go in your place (using Negotiation+Charisma+Loyalty for the check each time)
3) You would have to pay him appropriately (probably more each time). Consultants charge a lot per hour. Lawyers charge even more; which is kind of what he is at that point.
4) Then there wouid be an upper limit to how many scenes/adventures you can bring him in. You can't use every contact in every run.
5) There might be misallaneous risks and problems associated with going through a contact. You might put the contact at risk. He might mess up. He might not negotiate as hard for you since it doesn't really matter to him. He might not respond well to threats or intimidation. Someone might buy him out. He could get sick one day. He might be busy the night of the meet. Who knows? (I wouldn't play this up to much, but some GMs might - especially if you over-use the contact.)
6) In addition to paying him appropriately, you'd have to owe him favors each time he helped you. That's a lot of favors, man.
While I like it when players use their contacts creatively and come up with some creative plans, I won't give anything for free just for having a clever way to word it. Usually, I'll need the player to explain why EVERYONE doesn't do this, and if there's a unique choice or tradeoff that he's making, I'll go for it. But just like he expects to recieve the benefit, I expect to have the tradeoff happen and effect the game. Not an occasional thing either - just as reliable as the benefit. Now, of course, some of this is inherently off-traded already since you're paying BP for the contact, and that's taken into consideration.
If you were playing in my game, djinni, I would suggest you pay for your Charisma regularly (10 points each) because you're still expecting to use your Charisma normally. But then I'd offer you a 10 BP drawback for only being able to use your Charisma in limited circumstances (when you're buddy is replacing you), and then I wouldn't consider the above restrictions (except #5, occasionally, when I feel it would make the game more fun).
| QUOTE (cetiah) |
| I wouldn't allow it in my game. It might work on a case-by-case basis using the "contact" rules, but then: 1) You would have to buy his connection and loyalty (see #2) |
well yeah, why wouldn't you? he's a contact!
| QUOTE |
| 2) You would have to convince him to go in your place (using Negotiation+Charisma+Loyalty for the check each time) |
he's your best friend there's no convincing. why would you have to convince your best friend to do anything for you?
| QUOTE |
| 3) You would have to pay him appropriately (probably more each time). Consultants charge a lot per hour. Lawyers charge even more; which is kind of what he is at that point. |
again he's your best friend, he's just there to sit in your place and get free food... the teams face is the one that needs to be negotiating
| QUOTE |
| 4) Then there wouid be an upper limit to how many scenes/adventures you can bring him in. You can't use every contact in every run. |
that's just life, if he doens't have a day job then there's no reason he should miss anything, but then again if a runner can't make it to the meet do you reschedule?
| QUOTE |
| 5) There might be misallaneous risks and problems associated with going through a contact. You might put the contact at risk. He might mess up. He might not negotiate as hard for you since it doesn't really matter to him. He might not respond well to threats or intimidation. Someone might buy him out. He could get sick one day. He might be busy the night of the meet. Who knows? (I wouldn't play this up to much, but some GMs might - especially if you over-use the contact.) |
the same thing can happen with the runners... but this is what the contact was purchased for, so no need to hamstring a player out of spite.
| QUOTE |
| 6) In addition to paying him appropriately, you'd have to owe him favors each time he helped you. That's a lot of favors, man. |
so lemme get this right, you pay your contacts appropriatly, AND owe them favors? that's stupid. you owe them a favor when they do something for you for free. also the Idea for the PC is that doing this for the runner gets him the income he needs to live, he's got no job and gets paid say a medium lifestyle to just sit in at a meet and not be stupid.
| QUOTE |
| While I like it when players use their contacts creatively and come up with some creative plans, I won't give anything for free just for having a clever way to word it. Usually, I'll need the player to explain why EVERYONE doesn't do this, and if there's a unique choice or tradeoff that he's making, I'll go for it. |
that's already been explained.
| QUOTE |
| But just like he expects to recieve the benefit, I expect to have the tradeoff happen and effect the game. Not an occasional thing either - just as reliable as the benefit. Now, of course, some of this is inherently off-traded already since you're paying BP for the contact, and that's taken into consideration. |
BP and a monthly nuyen cost.
| QUOTE |
| If you were playing in my game, djinni, I would suggest you pay for your Charisma regularly (10 points each) because you're still expecting to use your Charisma normally. But then I'd offer you a 10 BP drawback for only being able to use your Charisma in limited circumstances (when you're buddy is replacing you), and then I wouldn't consider the above restrictions (except #5, occasionally, when I feel it would make the game more fun). |
number 5 is just real life same as any runner, if things like this get taken into account for the NPC's the need to be taken into account for the runner too.
| QUOTE |
| he's your best friend there's no convincing. why would you have to convince your best friend to do anything for you? |
| QUOTE |
| again he's your best friend, he's just there to sit in your place and get free food... the teams face is the one that needs to be negotiating |
Nope, best friend is still Loyalty 6. That's +6 dice to convince him to do anything. Maybe that will make up for your crappy social skills, maybe not. A more charismatic guy would be able to convince his friends to do more for him.
| QUOTE |
| that's just life, if he doens't have a day job then there's no reason he should miss anything, but then again if a runner can't make it to the meet do you reschedule? |
Contacts aren't obligated to work in your schedule and they've got lives of their own - you don't get to design that. And to my knowledge, Mr Johnsons never re-schedule for the Shadowrunner's convinience.
| QUOTE |
| the same thing can happen with the runners... but this is what the contact was purchased for, so no need to hamstring a player out of spite. |
No, I mean that its generally expected that allied NPCs are MORE LIKELY to run into such trouble. And it's not spite. Geez, it's nothing personal. It's the rules of the game - or at the very least an interpretation of the rules that allows you to follow your character concept without unbalancing the game.
And yes, there is a need to hamstring the player - or did you miss the point of my post? A player shouldn't get benefits he didn't pay for or earn through play. Ever. Unless he's willing to make a tradeoff. Call that hamstringing if you like. Again, it's not personal, just a GM's job to keep things balanced and controled for everyone within the play environment. If what you're suggesting had no consequences, everyone who didn't do this would be disadvantaged for this game and all future games.
And as far as "hamstringing" goes, as long as you got fair warning and got some benefit out of it, it's all fair.
| QUOTE |
| so lemme get this right, you pay your contacts appropriatly, AND owe them favors? that's stupid. |
It takes a while to get used to, but yeah.
You'll see how it works through play.
| QUOTE |
| you owe them a favor when they do something for you for free. |
The stuff a runner tends to ask for tends to go above and beyond the call of duty, so to speak. Just talking to a shadowrunner is a big risk. The favor is for preferential treatment; the payment is just to show respect, really. It works differently for different purposes.
If it makes you feel better, you can turn the tables on him later. Maybe. But then you might suffer loyalty shifts. Your relationship with a contact is something between friend and business associate; and it has some advantages and some disadvantages of both. You still have to pay them for their services, but you also know you can trust them, that they won't try to screw you, and that they'll try to be anonymous about it all. Sometimes just getting the service at all puts the contact at a huge inconvinience, especially if it requires him to change his schedule.
| QUOTE |
| also the Idea for the PC is that doing this for the runner gets him the income he needs to live, he's got no job and gets paid say a medium lifestyle to just sit in at a meet and not be stupid. |
Nope, again. Contacts are generally freelancers. They charge per job, based on what they could have gotten doing a smiliar job for someone else (although they'll usually do more for you or charge you less than average). Besides, contacts often have outside jobs already, so he's already making a fulltime wage somewhere in addition to the stuff he's doing with you.
| QUOTE |
| BP and a monthly nuyen cost. |
A trivial monthly cost (which may or not be applicable to your game, depending on how much time passes). Little to no respect for the contact's own life and needs. Also, you're not really paying BP since you're only paying, what?, 6-10 BP for this contact? How much are you saving by not having Charisma? 40? 50? You're GM probably can do the math just as well as you.
| QUOTE |
| number 5 is just real life same as any runner, if things like this get taken into account for the NPC's the need to be taken into account for the runner too. |
Theoretically, yes, but I'm telling you, as fair warning if you were in my game, NPCs would almost never take real-life sort of needs into account to accomodate runners, but runners might be forced to take real-life considerations into account for PCs more than should be, strictly speaking, should be considered average. And "enemy NPCs" rarely suffer from these disadvantages as much as allies. This is a concept not unique to this game, but is found in every game, story, and movie in existance. How often is Mary Jane or Dick Grayson captured by supervillains, for example?
I was just trying to give you an analysis of the whole situation so you might know what to expect. I think your GM would apply certain similiar principles in handling the situation; I don't know whether he would forewarn you or not.
Availability and pay would be major issues. Friend or not, they won't be available for every meet and would probably stop being your friend if one of the negotiations was over some nasty work.
Since this contact is basically working as a broker for your character's talents, expect to pay them a percentage. A cozy meet in a safe location the contact is at least somewhat familiar with, and the work isn't too dirty, 10% would probably do. If you dragged them out of bed in the middle of the night and went to a deserted junkyard deep in Glow City to negotiate on a wetwork contract, expect 30% and a warning to keep away for a long time. Expect more trouble if the contact later has to leave town because they are a target too, because they know too much and they have to take family and leave business behind.
What might work better is having a contact who could help you sell stuff. I've had mage characters either sell directly to a Talismonger contact or have that contact help them sell to someone else, for a percentage of the deal. That would be safer for the contact and, unless you were in a hurry, you could stash the loot for a while until it was cool enough to sell and the contact had time.
Since this contact is basically working as a broker for your character's talents, expect to pay them a percentage. A cozy meet in a safe location the contact is at least somewhat familiar with, and the work isn't too dirty, 10% would probably do. If you dragged them out of bed in the middle of the night and went to a deserted junkyard deep in Glow City to negotiate on a wetwork contract, expect 30% and a warning to keep away for a long time. Expect more trouble if the contact later has to leave town because they are a target too, because they know too much and they have to take family and leave business behind.
What might work better is having a contact who could help you sell stuff. I've had mage characters either sell directly to a Talismonger contact or have that contact help them sell to someone else, for a percentage of the deal. That would be safer for the contact and, unless you were in a hurry, you could stash the loot for a while until it was cool enough to sell and the contact had time.
| QUOTE (cetiah @ Jan 30 2007, 06:10 PM) |
| And yes, there is a need to hamstring the player - or did you miss the point of my post? A player shouldn't get benefits he didn't pay for or earn through play. Ever. Unless he's willing to make a tradeoff. Call that hamstringing if you like. Again, it's not personal, just a GM's job to keep things balanced and controled for everyone within the play environment. If what you're suggesting had no consequences, everyone who didn't do this would be disadvantaged for this game and all future games. |
not being rude (or at least not trying to) but in your world expending BP, and nuyen to get something means they got it for free? I can see having to pay a contact AND owe them a favor for a low level loyalty 1-2 (no biggie it's business anyway) but paying for something then being told I got it for free seems harsh
and once again "He's not negotiating." he's sitting in. saying nothing being there and being silent like a good little runner.
Loyalty level 6: Friend For Life. The contact will do whatever he can for the character, even if it means putting his own life on the line.
hrm... that sounds like he'd do it no queestions asked, in the middle of the night, at a junk yard over wetwork...for free even...
maybe you need to explain your view of "the meet" perhaps it's quite different than ours?
| QUOTE (djinni) | ||
not being rude (or at least not trying to) but in your world expending BP, and nuyen to get something means they got it for free? I can see having to pay a contact AND owe them a favor for a low level loyalty 1-2 (no biggie it's business anyway) but paying for something then being told I got it for free seems harsh and once again "He's not negotiating." he's sitting in. saying nothing being there and being silent like a good little runner. Loyalty level 6: Friend For Life. The contact will do whatever he can for the character, even if it means putting his own life on the line. hrm... that sounds like he'd do it no queestions asked, in the middle of the night, at a junk yard over wetwork...for free even... maybe you need to explain your view of "the meet" perhaps it's quite different than ours? |
No, my version of the meet isn't different.
Our concept of costs and benefits are different.
You keep trying to say that you're buying a buddy, and ignoring the fact that what you're really buying is a charisma score that replaces your own. That's above the usual cost for a contact's services, especially with what you want and the way you want it. So you're not paying for a contact, really, you're paying for an augmentation to your attributes. Attributes cost 10 BP. You're not paying that. Instead your trying to weasel out of paying for it, and try to say that paying 5-10 BP for the contact is more than fair. But you don't want any restrictions on his use, no gimicks, no unreliability, none of the disadvantages normally associated with contacts, but just want it to replace a 50BP aspect of your character for 5-10 BP.
Clear?
You're not really paying nuyen either. You've offered to pay monthly because you no how little nuyen that actually is. That's far below what anyone will be paying any other contacts for any other services.
As for the "he's my buddy fluff" that's all true, but its reflected in the fact that you have a huge (+6) bonus to get him to help you. That's a really good friend. That's on top of the fact that you're a rude damn troll that can't politely negotiate yourself a decent favor.
I don't want to tell you how to play. I feel like I've been doing that too often lately. I'm really trying to help you. Sorry if I'm coming off kind of oppressive or idea-quashing. I just think your GM will share my perspective.
I'd allow it, it's a good concept idea. Of course, you have to worry about things like him betraying you (loyalty 6 or not, the shadows are harsh), him getting killed, him getting captured and tortured and spilling the beans, etc.
But it's a good concept, I'd go for it.
But it's a good concept, I'd go for it.
As a GM I'd allow it with some caveats. If this was just an excuse to have a one charisma, rather than an RP sort of thing I'd probably laugh at him.
Yeah, a level 6 contact is probably willing to sit in run meetings for a runner. It sounds like the right mechanism for the job. And I can think of a few books and movies that have used just such a plot contrivance for a character.
Here is the thing. The one charisma troll doesn't ruin the meet for the Johnson, they aren't trying out to be a boy-band after all. It's the players actions at the meet. So, given that this contact isn't really doing anything but putting a presumably human face on the troll runner, nothing is broken. In fact, sounds like an excellent runner mentality. Another layer of anonymity and deception in the paranoid world of the shadows.
Say the troll is embarassed about his 'trollness'... that's RP material.
Hell, now I want to make a runner who handles all his negotiations over the wireless, but sends random anonymous hires to be him for physical meets. Too paranoid to meet with his own contacts in person.... yup yup.
Yeah, a level 6 contact is probably willing to sit in run meetings for a runner. It sounds like the right mechanism for the job. And I can think of a few books and movies that have used just such a plot contrivance for a character.
Here is the thing. The one charisma troll doesn't ruin the meet for the Johnson, they aren't trying out to be a boy-band after all. It's the players actions at the meet. So, given that this contact isn't really doing anything but putting a presumably human face on the troll runner, nothing is broken. In fact, sounds like an excellent runner mentality. Another layer of anonymity and deception in the paranoid world of the shadows.
Say the troll is embarassed about his 'trollness'... that's RP material.
Hell, now I want to make a runner who handles all his negotiations over the wireless, but sends random anonymous hires to be him for physical meets. Too paranoid to meet with his own contacts in person.... yup yup.
| QUOTE (cetiah @ Jan 30 2007, 07:01 PM) |
| You keep trying to say that you're buying a buddy, and ignoring the fact that what you're really buying is a charisma score that replaces your own. That's above the usual cost for a contact's services, especially with what you want and the way you want it. So you're not paying for a contact, really, you're paying for an augmentation to your attributes. Attributes cost 10 BP. You're not paying that. Instead your trying to weasel out of paying for it, and try to say that paying 5-10 BP for the contact is more than fair. But you don't want any restrictions on his use, no gimicks, no unreliability, none of the disadvantages normally associated with contacts, but just want it to replace a 50BP aspect of your character for 5-10 BP. |
so explain where the contact will be rolling dice?
Spike I didn't think of it as another layer of anonymity, but now I think I'll have to do that sometime, hiring at random seems too risky though...
being embarrassed is good too, I'll have to add that.
Eh... it was a random thought. So, random anonymous hires might not be how I'd actually try to play it out, but something like that. Having one single 'Faceman' doing your contact work for you would be risky for a paranoid runner. You become dependent upon that face, and he is just a speedbump in the datatrail, rather than the wall you want.
Better you have a Face that is lest trustworthy, but doesn't know anything that can screw you over, swap 'em out when they get too greedy, or too ambitious, or simply too familiar with your operation. For maximum paranoid sociopathy, kill 'em and dispose of the bodies in ghoul territory. Watch as the Mega's get ever more frustrated trying to build up a good database on your runner, provided you use equal levels of paranoid monomania in the runs themselves. Good for hackers and mages who can operate more remotely....
If you hit Prime Runner territory, you start hiring Shadowrunners to enable you to continue this paranoid streak. Paydata is inaccessable without a hacker on site? Hire a crew of runners to break in and hook up a wireless router and rig it to the main building antenna.
Watch as the game breaks down because no one wants to play second fiddle to a ghost geek...
Better you have a Face that is lest trustworthy, but doesn't know anything that can screw you over, swap 'em out when they get too greedy, or too ambitious, or simply too familiar with your operation. For maximum paranoid sociopathy, kill 'em and dispose of the bodies in ghoul territory. Watch as the Mega's get ever more frustrated trying to build up a good database on your runner, provided you use equal levels of paranoid monomania in the runs themselves. Good for hackers and mages who can operate more remotely....
If you hit Prime Runner territory, you start hiring Shadowrunners to enable you to continue this paranoid streak. Paydata is inaccessable without a hacker on site? Hire a crew of runners to break in and hook up a wireless router and rig it to the main building antenna.
Watch as the game breaks down because no one wants to play second fiddle to a ghost geek...
Cetiah, he's just a stand-in. He's got a wireless connection to the PC and just sits there like a good boy and nods while the face states the teams case. He doesn't negotiate with the Johnson, he doesn't demand more money for the team, and especially doesn't talk, at all, except for a nod or such.
I'd allow it. It's just a role reversal. The PC is simply acting like a corp hiring a Mr. Johnson. He just wants to put up a good front for the Johnson. Also, it would help the team stay anonymous and harder to track. The sec teams look for a team of 5 humans but don't know that the team is actually made up of 2 elves, 1 orc, 1 troll and only 1 human. Would make it harder for the Johnson to facial check the runners too.
I'd allow it. It's just a role reversal. The PC is simply acting like a corp hiring a Mr. Johnson. He just wants to put up a good front for the Johnson. Also, it would help the team stay anonymous and harder to track. The sec teams look for a team of 5 humans but don't know that the team is actually made up of 2 elves, 1 orc, 1 troll and only 1 human. Would make it harder for the Johnson to facial check the runners too.
I think some of us have different interpretations about Loyalty rating 6.
To me, Loyalty 6 means "Friends for life", just as it says in the book. None of this "Convincing" crap for any normal deals - such as, in this scenario, sitting in for your buddy. That's a part of his routine, not a disruption from it.
Loyalty 6 means someone will shelter you even if you've called the whole damn Star down on you. It means they'll pick up a gun and fight for your life, even if they've never handled one before and Renraku Red Samurai are busting down their doors.
At Loyalty six, especially if he's Connection 1, he has basically very little life other than his interaction with you, and he'll have few distractions.
Of course, such loyalty must be upkept - otherwise it drops, degrades, and finally becomes nothing. This should be reflected in said contact actually treating you like his best bud - he'll message you at weird hours of the day or night, sometimes at bad times, with banal banter (of course, if he knows what you do, you'll tell him when not to contact you; ie: on a run), requests, or just plain attention seeking.
He's the guy you turn to to provide what you can't do yourself; you're the guy he'll turn to for what he can't do his own self. Some thugs jump him and rough him up, it's your job to haul him to a hospital/street doc/street shaman for patching up, and then to track the mugs down and rough them up in return.
Some girl broke his heart, guess who's going to be buying him drinks in a seedy bar?
He wants to find a girl, because, he embaressingly admits to you, he's never, you know, done 'it' with a girl - or anything - before.
He wants to learn how to shoot, but he has no idea how to get a gun or how to use it - guess who he asks for help?
And so forth and so on. I'd let a player have an NPC as a best mate, but they'd better be prepared to deal with the attached baggage. And I don't mean shit like him rolling on you - Loyalty 6 contacts will generally die before they'll roll, or else have to be subjected to so much Psych IC that they don't know what they're doing. No, you get an entirely different set of shit to deal with.
Honestly, it sounds like fun.
To me, Loyalty 6 means "Friends for life", just as it says in the book. None of this "Convincing" crap for any normal deals - such as, in this scenario, sitting in for your buddy. That's a part of his routine, not a disruption from it.
Loyalty 6 means someone will shelter you even if you've called the whole damn Star down on you. It means they'll pick up a gun and fight for your life, even if they've never handled one before and Renraku Red Samurai are busting down their doors.
At Loyalty six, especially if he's Connection 1, he has basically very little life other than his interaction with you, and he'll have few distractions.
Of course, such loyalty must be upkept - otherwise it drops, degrades, and finally becomes nothing. This should be reflected in said contact actually treating you like his best bud - he'll message you at weird hours of the day or night, sometimes at bad times, with banal banter (of course, if he knows what you do, you'll tell him when not to contact you; ie: on a run), requests, or just plain attention seeking.
He's the guy you turn to to provide what you can't do yourself; you're the guy he'll turn to for what he can't do his own self. Some thugs jump him and rough him up, it's your job to haul him to a hospital/street doc/street shaman for patching up, and then to track the mugs down and rough them up in return.
Some girl broke his heart, guess who's going to be buying him drinks in a seedy bar?
He wants to find a girl, because, he embaressingly admits to you, he's never, you know, done 'it' with a girl - or anything - before.
He wants to learn how to shoot, but he has no idea how to get a gun or how to use it - guess who he asks for help?
And so forth and so on. I'd let a player have an NPC as a best mate, but they'd better be prepared to deal with the attached baggage. And I don't mean shit like him rolling on you - Loyalty 6 contacts will generally die before they'll roll, or else have to be subjected to so much Psych IC that they don't know what they're doing. No, you get an entirely different set of shit to deal with.
Honestly, it sounds like fun.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| And so forth and so on. I'd let a player have an NPC as a best mate, but they'd better be prepared to deal with the attached baggage. And I don't mean **** like him rolling on you - Loyalty 6 contacts will generally die before they'll roll, or else have to be subjected to so much Psych IC that they don't know what they're doing. No, you get an entirely different set of **** to deal with. |
yeah THAT!
Actually I always do this but it means something different in my games. See I have a problem with the whole Fixer/Johnson thing anyway.
For one I think that Fixers would be the biggest targets in the world. They would get tracked down and beaten up on a daily basis. It's not like they can be too hard to find if they actually want work. People always tell me that wouldn't happen because then that person would have a hard time in the shadows and they have a code of honor, blah, blah, blah. That's a load. The only reason that fixers aren't always taking a pounding is because it is a necessary fiction for the game to work.
In my games all the freelance fixers are all dead. The only ones that live are the ones working for the syndicates or the megacorps. They are big enough to protect their own. They are large enough to be found and be directed to the right people. You know that there will be a big concequence for going after their people.
Now the fixer in my game is your agent. They do all the calls and negotiating for you. They take a percentage and you get what you can from them. You don't even know what the fixer was offered. It could be alot and it could be a favor for one of the mafia bosses. They will pay you a fair price with a little wiggle room but instead of trying to negotiate for extra for some piece of equipment they give a number for a black market contact and tell you they will give you a deal. I think that all the blackmarket contacts are syndicate too so it makes sense.
Now you never see a Mr Johnson. The Johnson doesn't double cross you in my game. The Fixer doesn't double cross you in my game. You don't belong to the syndicate. You are called an associate. The fixer does some initial leg work for you and makes sure of the Mr Johnson as much as he can (he turns down deals all the time). You can have multiple fixers that are loyal to different groups. You just have to be careful what you say to whom. This will give you street and corporate level jobs.
If you are really good then the megacorp head hunters might recruit you but that transistion is very dangerous. Once you are in with a megacorp they don't like you working for anyone else. The benefits are better though and you get any equipment you can justify.
I think that the several decades of shadowrunning will cause people to weed out certain foolish risks. The other advantage of this is having that Fixer calling you to tell you that you are doing something so stupid that it got on to the news and you actually listen to him.
My moto with shadowrun is that you are a small shark swimming with older meaner sharks.
For one I think that Fixers would be the biggest targets in the world. They would get tracked down and beaten up on a daily basis. It's not like they can be too hard to find if they actually want work. People always tell me that wouldn't happen because then that person would have a hard time in the shadows and they have a code of honor, blah, blah, blah. That's a load. The only reason that fixers aren't always taking a pounding is because it is a necessary fiction for the game to work.
In my games all the freelance fixers are all dead. The only ones that live are the ones working for the syndicates or the megacorps. They are big enough to protect their own. They are large enough to be found and be directed to the right people. You know that there will be a big concequence for going after their people.
Now the fixer in my game is your agent. They do all the calls and negotiating for you. They take a percentage and you get what you can from them. You don't even know what the fixer was offered. It could be alot and it could be a favor for one of the mafia bosses. They will pay you a fair price with a little wiggle room but instead of trying to negotiate for extra for some piece of equipment they give a number for a black market contact and tell you they will give you a deal. I think that all the blackmarket contacts are syndicate too so it makes sense.
Now you never see a Mr Johnson. The Johnson doesn't double cross you in my game. The Fixer doesn't double cross you in my game. You don't belong to the syndicate. You are called an associate. The fixer does some initial leg work for you and makes sure of the Mr Johnson as much as he can (he turns down deals all the time). You can have multiple fixers that are loyal to different groups. You just have to be careful what you say to whom. This will give you street and corporate level jobs.
If you are really good then the megacorp head hunters might recruit you but that transistion is very dangerous. Once you are in with a megacorp they don't like you working for anyone else. The benefits are better though and you get any equipment you can justify.
I think that the several decades of shadowrunning will cause people to weed out certain foolish risks. The other advantage of this is having that Fixer calling you to tell you that you are doing something so stupid that it got on to the news and you actually listen to him.
My moto with shadowrun is that you are a small shark swimming with older meaner sharks.
I think it's interesting the conception of what "best friend" (loyalty 6) means. One side says "He'll do anything for me!"; the other side says "No, you just get more dice." What about the other possibility? Me, I rarely have players roll to get favors. I usually just base what the contact can do off their Connections and what they're willing to do (and at what cost) on Loyalty. Once in a while, if the contact is leery of performing the favor but not outright refusing, I have them roll. Now, the important bit: A best friend is not a flunky. If I asked my best friend to do me a favor, he might say no, for whatever reason. It happens. He might want to help me, but he could be busy, or even simply unwilling. ("I'm not a killer, Tasha! I just can't do that, even for you...")
A player in my game has a loyalty 6 contact who holds a fairly major role in the Russian mob in Tacoma. (Tacoma is the organized crime center of Seattle in my game.) This character has been a powerful plot device, and a useful contact. But he has refused a few favors. Because he has responsibilities. He can't do anything that would put him at odds with the mob, not only because of the danger it would put him in, but also the danger to his family. See, he is completely committed to the player character, but that doesn't mean there is no one else he is devoted to.
Loyalty 6 contacts are plot devices, pure and simple. They are not, on the other hand, magic bullets to solve your problems.
A player in my game has a loyalty 6 contact who holds a fairly major role in the Russian mob in Tacoma. (Tacoma is the organized crime center of Seattle in my game.) This character has been a powerful plot device, and a useful contact. But he has refused a few favors. Because he has responsibilities. He can't do anything that would put him at odds with the mob, not only because of the danger it would put him in, but also the danger to his family. See, he is completely committed to the player character, but that doesn't mean there is no one else he is devoted to.
Loyalty 6 contacts are plot devices, pure and simple. They are not, on the other hand, magic bullets to solve your problems.
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| I think it's interesting the conception of what "best friend" (loyalty 6) means. One side says "He'll do anything for me!"; the other side says "No, you just get more dice." What about the other possibility? Me, I rarely have players roll to get favors. I usually just base what the contact can do off their Connections and what they're willing to do (and at what cost) on Loyalty. Once in a while, if the contact is leery of performing the favor but not outright refusing, I have them roll. Now, the important bit: A best friend is not a flunky. If I asked my best friend to do me a favor, he might say no, for whatever reason. It happens. He might want to help me, but he could be busy, or even simply unwilling. ("I'm not a killer, Tasha! I just can't do that, even for you...") A player in my game has a loyalty 6 contact who holds a fairly major role in the Russian mob in Tacoma. (Tacoma is the organized crime center of Seattle in my game.) This character has been a powerful plot device, and a useful contact. But he has refused a few favors. Because he has responsibilities. He can't do anything that would put him at odds with the mob, not only because of the danger it would put him in, but also the danger to his family. See, he is completely committed to the player character, but that doesn't mean there is no one else he is devoted to. Loyalty 6 contacts are plot devices, pure and simple. They are not, on the other hand, magic bullets to solve your problems. |
What you're describing, to me, seems more like a Loyalty 5 or 4 contact than a Loyalty 6.
A friend will bail you out of jail, but the best friend is handcuffed to the bench next to yours and going "That was awesome."
A friend will provide an alibi, a best friend will bring a shovel and trash bags.
Best friends will be there for you whenever they can, but that doesn't mean they are suicidal. In the end, they should still be human, and, most importantly, there shouldn't be more reason for the contact to be around than other player characters.
Like with these characters I described. They will most certainly risk their lives for each other. It's never about putting personal desires first. However, they are still human. They have lives and there are consequences. This friend might well take a bullet for the PC, but he might not put the PC's life ahead of that of his whole family.
I won't allow Loyalty 6 to become a way to have a person who does whatever you tell him. Not in my game.
Like with these characters I described. They will most certainly risk their lives for each other. It's never about putting personal desires first. However, they are still human. They have lives and there are consequences. This friend might well take a bullet for the PC, but he might not put the PC's life ahead of that of his whole family.
I won't allow Loyalty 6 to become a way to have a person who does whatever you tell him. Not in my game.
Keep in mind that a best friend can become less than that.
If he's loyalty 6 to start, and the first 5 runs you do result in him getting shot at, threatened, kidnapped and violated by men in shiny suits, all of which happened because of you, he probably is no longer loyalty 6. That's when you have to start negotiating for his services.
Yes, to cetiah - I understand that the player is replacing the 20 points he'd spend on getting his Cha up to 3 with 7 points of contact (I wouldn't give his friend a cha over 3). He's also only available for one specific instance - going to the meet. That's a small percentage of the uses that troll will have for his cha. The troll still has a 1 cha when it comes time to con someone during the run. He still has a 1 cha when the Star is cracking down on him after picking him up for questioning.
In fact, I'd say it's *at least* a 66% reduction (20->7) in cost.
There are plenty of other ways to get his effective Cha to 3 for cheap. He could simply buy tailored pheremones at level 2. That's 30K nuyen and .4 essence (6 bp). He could pay the 20 bp to get his cha to 3, then pick up the Uncouth flaw for 20 points - that's a *free* +2 cha, and has the same effect. He could keep his cha at 1 and pick up Con (Bluff) 1 (3) for 6 bp, and use it to convince Mr. J he's not a social pariah. That's 4 dice, more than the 3 cha his contact can use. And those are just the first couple I thought of. If you want to get more esoteric, AR projecting, spirits for hire and the like all kick in as well.
It seems like you've had some pretty abusive players in the past, who are constantly trying to pull one over on you - this is just an interesting solution to a particular problem.
If he's loyalty 6 to start, and the first 5 runs you do result in him getting shot at, threatened, kidnapped and violated by men in shiny suits, all of which happened because of you, he probably is no longer loyalty 6. That's when you have to start negotiating for his services.
Yes, to cetiah - I understand that the player is replacing the 20 points he'd spend on getting his Cha up to 3 with 7 points of contact (I wouldn't give his friend a cha over 3). He's also only available for one specific instance - going to the meet. That's a small percentage of the uses that troll will have for his cha. The troll still has a 1 cha when it comes time to con someone during the run. He still has a 1 cha when the Star is cracking down on him after picking him up for questioning.
In fact, I'd say it's *at least* a 66% reduction (20->7) in cost.
There are plenty of other ways to get his effective Cha to 3 for cheap. He could simply buy tailored pheremones at level 2. That's 30K nuyen and .4 essence (6 bp). He could pay the 20 bp to get his cha to 3, then pick up the Uncouth flaw for 20 points - that's a *free* +2 cha, and has the same effect. He could keep his cha at 1 and pick up Con (Bluff) 1 (3) for 6 bp, and use it to convince Mr. J he's not a social pariah. That's 4 dice, more than the 3 cha his contact can use. And those are just the first couple I thought of. If you want to get more esoteric, AR projecting, spirits for hire and the like all kick in as well.
It seems like you've had some pretty abusive players in the past, who are constantly trying to pull one over on you - this is just an interesting solution to a particular problem.
edit: Oops, lorechaser beat my post. I too am responding to Eryk.
I don't think anyone is really advocating using a L6 contact as a "I tell him to jump off of a bridge and he does it" card.
What I think is key to their point is that a "best friend", the "lifelong buddy" that will take a bullet for you etc., would do many things you need of them out of the friendship. I have a friend that said it very well, and I paraphrase: Friendship is really just love with a different name and slightly different social perception. Relationships, including love and friendship, are about give and take.
So yes, I think a friend that's that close (and mechanically, that you have spent BP on) would probably do something like this for a PC without asking too much in return.
What might be missing from the conversation thus far, however (and forgive me if I missed it, I only skimmed the thread), is that the friend should be able to, and should ask the PC for equally important and/or dangerous favors, and the PC should be just as "obligated" to help. If he/she does not, he/she risks losing the friend/contact, or at least severely damaging the relationship (lowering the value).
I don't think anyone is really advocating using a L6 contact as a "I tell him to jump off of a bridge and he does it" card.
What I think is key to their point is that a "best friend", the "lifelong buddy" that will take a bullet for you etc., would do many things you need of them out of the friendship. I have a friend that said it very well, and I paraphrase: Friendship is really just love with a different name and slightly different social perception. Relationships, including love and friendship, are about give and take.
So yes, I think a friend that's that close (and mechanically, that you have spent BP on) would probably do something like this for a PC without asking too much in return.
What might be missing from the conversation thus far, however (and forgive me if I missed it, I only skimmed the thread), is that the friend should be able to, and should ask the PC for equally important and/or dangerous favors, and the PC should be just as "obligated" to help. If he/she does not, he/she risks losing the friend/contact, or at least severely damaging the relationship (lowering the value).
I understand that, and I don't think we disagree as much as originally seems. I just don't agree with logic based around the idea that "He's Loyalty 6. OF COURSE he'll do X for me."
My point is more that you need to remember that contacts are people. No matter what the numbers, they are not favor machines. You can't always get what you want.
My point is more that you need to remember that contacts are people. No matter what the numbers, they are not favor machines. You can't always get what you want.
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| I understand that, and I don't think we disagree as much as originally seems. I just don't agree with logic based around the idea that "He's Loyalty 6. OF COURSE he'll do X for me." My point is more that you need to remember that contacts are people. No matter what the numbers, they are not favor machines. You can't always get what you want. |
I agree. Use them too much for your own ends and they will come to resent it, especially if, as mentioned several times, that person gets attacked or threatened. If you want to keep them, paying would help as would taking them to only relativley safe meets.
There is another option. You could have a contact that is a professional broker or face as it were. Their job description would be to go to meets and negotiate in favor of their employer. They would also be paid for their services, probably a percantage of the fee. That would be an additional cost for the team, of course, but if your team's organic negotiation skills are killing it, then it might be worthwhile.
On the other hand, put some points into Negotiation with a specialization in Bargaining. Mr. Johnson will probably still outclass the troll that has been described, but it would put them on a more even footing.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| What might be missing from the conversation thus far, however (and forgive me if I missed it, I only skimmed the thread), is that the friend should be able to, and should ask the PC for equally important and/or dangerous favors, and the PC should be just as "obligated" to help. If he/she does not, he/she risks losing the friend/contact, or at least severely damaging the relationship (lowering the value). |
| QUOTE (me) |
| Of course, such loyalty must be upkept - otherwise it drops, degrades, and finally becomes nothing. This should be reflected in said contact actually treating you like his best bud - he'll message you at weird hours of the day or night, sometimes at bad times, with banal banter (of course, if he knows what you do, you'll tell him when not to contact you; ie: on a run), requests, or just plain attention seeking. He's the guy you turn to to provide what you can't do yourself; you're the guy he'll turn to for what he can't do his own self. Some thugs jump him and rough him up, it's your job to haul him to a hospital/street doc/street shaman for patching up, and then to track the mugs down and rough them up in return. Some girl broke his heart, guess who's going to be buying him drinks in a seedy bar? He wants to find a girl, because, he embaressingly admits to you, he's never, you know, done 'it' with a girl - or anything - before. He wants to learn how to shoot, but he has no idea how to get a gun or how to use it - guess who he asks for help? |
Re-emphasis mine. A good contact like this should be more than willing to help you out for a while, and they'll even take some abuse (who hasen't put their friends through some abuse), but you'd better be a best friend in return.
For example: I have a friend (my only friend, really), who rides with me to school and back. Last semester, I got injured coming out of class (fell and sprained my ankle) and my uncle showed up to take us home. But I could barely walk, I was afraid I was going to be taken away in an ambulance. Again. (This has happened before; falling and spraining my ankle on the school's campus).
I asked him to help me get to the hospital, and he did. He rode with me and my uncle to the hospital, helped me inside, and stuff. He had stuff to do and just helped me instead.
I didn't exactly have any
to pay him back with, but hey, that's what a friend's for. No harm, no foul.This christmas, he had asked me in like, September what I thought would be a cool game (pretty obviously asking me what I wanted for christmas). I named a game that I thought I'd like, and he was all set to buy it for me. As Christmas rolls around, my uncle does not know what to get me, and asks this friend what to get me for Christmas. All my friend can think of is the game he had planned to give me, so he tells my Uncle. My uncle gets me the game, and I get the friend a game, and he gets me nothing, because he had no idea what else to get me.
I'm not mad, or miffed. It didn't make me consider him any less of a friend; stuff happens.
Anyway, yeah. I'd let this troll have his personal Face, because frankly there's too many cool things to do with your player's own pet NPC to let it go:
Some mugs have roughed him bad, tossed his doss and stolen his drek. He barely managed to get to his comm and message you about it.
What d'ya do? You go over and collect him, and haul his ass to a hospital/street clinic/street shaman for patching up; the bill is almost certainly coming out of your credstick.
So now your friend's patched up, but he's got no shit, and there's some mugs roughing him up. You need to solve that, so you ask the rest of the team to help. Ideally, since you know, this is a group thing and the group should be tight, they'd have no problem pulling a freebie to help out a group member and a social aquaintance of all of them (after all, he's pretending to be the troll during meets, where the other players presumably meet him).
I mean, how much better of a plot can you get? Sure, it's not the traditional "Fixer sends you to Johnson who sends you to raid on a corp", but let's face it, the formula gets old and stale sometimes. And even good runners sometimes like to get back to the streets of the sprawl, cracking heads and shoving the gangs around.
Not exactly a DMPC, but a cool way to protagonize a recurring character interaction with the players. Not all contacts have to be in the 'biz', not all of them have to have shadowy past.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Some pure awesome |
Just so you know...
| QUOTE |
| The only reason... is because it is a necessary fiction for the game to work. |
Like so much else...
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) | ||
Like so much else... |
Maybe that's because... the Shadowrun Universe is a work of fiction designed to be a game?
Careful. We could very quickly end up with people trying to tell each other how the fictional world 'really' works, followed by both sides claiming that the other is using a baseline that only exists in the fiction. 
Good times...
Good times...
Given the original reason for this contact, I don't think the troll really needs him. The troll is not going to "mess up the meet" simply by sitting there - maybe if he had the Uncouth or Uneducated negative qualities, with a Charisma and Logic of 1. But the character that djinni posted is just your average troll muscle with a Charisma of 2 and no social skills. Sure, he'll be limited, socially, but he's not going to mess up a run just by sitting at the table.
Now, such a contact could be useful for other reasons, such as an extra level of security or misdirection, as others have suggested.
Now, such a contact could be useful for other reasons, such as an extra level of security or misdirection, as others have suggested.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Sure, he'll be limited, socially, but he's not going to mess up a run just by sitting at the table. |
the original Idea I had was a troll that was so stupid I "doesn't know any better." who WOULD mess up the meeting by just sitting in, and his "loser" best friend was willing to help him out by sitting in for him.
but after all the input from everyone I like the Idea more of being invisible, behind the scenes etc... so I changed the character a bit, making him stupid but not retarded. now I'm more going with his friend needs him more than he needs his friend, symbiotic relationship (as long as the rest of the group likes it.)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.