Like many here, I prefer to have more quantifiable rules for my games. That way the player knows what to expect ahead of time, and the GM can rule with less of a bias and more consistency. Drugs and addiction have been discussed in the past here on Dumpshock, but I haven't seen anything as polished as I'd like. And the BBB sure as hell doesn't have complete rules for this. So here it is. Keep in mind that they have not yet been playtested. I tried to make them as fair and simple as possible without them losing touch with reality. If you have any comments/suggestions please post a reply.
- Bonuses from drugs stack with all other forms of bonuses except other drugs and the adrenaline pump. These bonuses can surpass the 1.5x augmented maximum.
- Drug prices per 10 doses, type, and availability are as follows:
Bliss: 10Y/narcotic/4R
Cram: 70Y/stimulant/4F
Deepweed: 150Y/hallucinogenic/4R
Jazz: 150Y/stimulant/6R
Kamikaze: 500Y/narcotic/8F
Long Haul: 50Y/stimulant/0
Nitro: 500Y/narcotic/8F
Novacoke: 300Y/stimulant/4F
Psyche: 750Y/stimulant/8R
Zen: 10Y/hallucinogenic/4R
- A “hit” takes 1 dose for anyone with no or mild addiction. It takes 5 doses for moderate addiction, and 10 doses for severe or burnout. Taking a hit, no matter the dose size is a complex action (though preparation can increase this time, such as filling a syringe).
- PCs with mild addiction must take a hit every 7 days. Moderate addiction every day, and severe and burnout twice a day. Failure to meet this deadline or pass a craving test results in a persistent penalty to all tasks equal to the drug’s addiction threshold on page 248 until a hit is taken or the PC passes the next interval's craving test. Craving tests use body + willpower against a threshold equal to the type of drug; mild addicts make this test with a -1 modifier, moderate at -2, and severe and burnout at -3. You may not buy successes. Passing a craving test allows the PC to wait another interval before taking a hit or passing another craving test.
- PCs must roll their body + willpower (0 penalty) every time they take a hit. You may not buy successes. Failure to score 1 hit increases the addiction of the PC.
- Drugs of the same level or higher on the addiction threshold table may be substituted to satisfy addiction.
- Addiction is semi-permanent. In order to become a recovering addict, the PC must pass a consecutive number of craving tests equal to the drug’s addiction threshold x5. Recovering addicts must make a craving test (0 penalty) every month or whenever in the presence of their addiction. Failure to pass this test results in placing a persistent penalty to all tests equal to the drug’s addiction threshold until a hit is taken or the PC passes the next month’s craving test. Once a hit is taken, the PC returns to the addiction level s/he was formally at.
- Because addiction is semi-permanent, karma is not required to remove addiction like other flaws.
- Active enrollment in a rehab program gives the PC a +4 modifier to all craving tests. Rehab programs cost 2500Y per month and are considered the low lifestyle.
- Active enrollment in a once a day support group gives the PC a +2 modifier to all craving tests. Rehab and support group bonuses do not stack (essentially you are enrolled in a support group during rehab).
- Focus, VR, and BTL addiction works the same way as drug addiction, but addiction tests are made every willpower + 1D6 hours of consecutive use (the GM rolls the 1D6 in secret). To satisfy a craving, mild addicts must spend 1 hour, moderate addicts must spend 4 hours, and severe/burnout addicts must spend 8 hours, which must be spent consecutively. Short bathroom/food breaks are allowed, but should often be neglected by addicts.
- Foci and VR have addiction thresholds of 2.
- Focus addiction tests must be made for each focus.
- Multiple addiction dice penalties overlap but do not stack.
Full Version: Drugs and Addiction Rules
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon) |
- PCs with mild addiction must take a hit every 7 days. Moderate addiction every day, and severe and burnout twice a day. Failure to meet this deadline or pass a craving test results in a persistent penalty to all tasks equal to the drug’s addiction threshold on page 248 until a hit is taken or the PC passes the next interval's craving test. Craving tests use body + willpower against a threshold equal to the type of drug; mild addicts make this test with a -1 modifier, moderate at -2, and severe and burnout at -3. You may not buy successes. Passing a craving test allows the PC to wait another interval before taking a hit or passing another craving test. |
I don't like not buying successes? What's your rational? Just to try and guarantee that mild addicts might fail? Also, I'd say roll willpower + willpower since you're resisting a craving. I could see including body because high body folk might have a reduced dependency on drugs, so either way really works.
I also like the penalties of -0/-1/-2/-3 better than -1/-2/-3 if only because the book indicates that mild addicts may not even be aware they have an addiction (yet) and to make burnout worse than severe addictions.
| QUOTE |
| - PCs must roll their body + willpower (0 penalty) every time they take a hit. You may not buy successes. Failure to score 1 hit increases the addiction of the PC. |
Seems like this makes increasing addiction extremely rare. With an average dice pool of 6 (human normal status used) we're looking at an average of 2 hits regardless. I'd say that the addiction penalty should probably apply to this test as well to increase the chances that folk with a more trying addiction are likely to increase said addiction. Also, if we go with my penalties, then mild addicts end up rolling they're normal pool in both your set and my set of rules.
| QUOTE |
| - Drugs of the same level or higher on the addiction threshold table may be substituted to satisfy addiction. |
Cool, and handy to get people addicted to more than one drug, I suppose, but I think that taking -- for example -- a narcotic to relieve your stimulant craving wouldn't make sense. You could take a different stimulant (e.g. Cram instead of Psyche) but risk becoming addicted to both stimulants (yikes!)
| QUOTE |
| - Addiction is semi-permanent. In order to become a recovering addict, the PC must pass a consecutive number of craving tests equal to the drug’s addiction threshold x5. |
I don't like that the recovering addict state can be reached from all addictions. I'd say that to recover from an addiction, you must pass the consequtive craving tests as above but that reduces you from one level to another (burnout to severe, severe to moderate, moderate to mild, mild to none).
| QUOTE |
| - Because addiction is semi-permanent, karma is not required to remove addiction like other flaws. |
I don't like this; karma should be necessary if only to keep things inline with other flaws. Granted, I don't have a better solution.
| QUOTE |
| - Multiple addiction dice penalties overlap but do not stack. |
I'm not sure I understand this. So if you're moderately addicted to stims and narcotics (specific drugs notwithstanding) you're only ever at a -2 (or -1 in my set) penalty?
| QUOTE (Dashifen) | ||
Seems like this makes increasing addiction extremely rare. With an average dice pool of 6 (human normal status used) we're looking at an average of 2 hits regardless. I'd say that the addiction penalty should probably apply to this test as well to increase the chances that folk with a more trying addiction are likely to increase said addiction. |
I'd like to point out that your average of 2 hits doesn't preclude getting unlucky and getting no hits, or even a glitch. By inflicting a penalty on this roll you're simply speeding the decline toward burnout.
I do like the suggestions for foci, VR and BTL addiction, which really aren't explained in the BBB.
Still, I personally tend to run it less mechanistically, although I can see how these rules would be useful. My one criticism is that I think the recovering addict test is too frequent. Rather than have a roll once a month I'd be inclined to have them roll when given the opportunity to fall back into the habit, and in times of mental duress (basically GM fiat).
I'd also be inclined to charge Karma for getting off drugs, even if it wasn't permanent. But then, maybe I'm just mean.
In the interest of full disclosure I should add that I have some observational experience with recovering addicts (not being one myself). I've been a roommate with one for 6 months, dated one for about 9 months, and have two close friends who are recovering addicts. I've also been to at least 100 AA meetings (as support) with my ex and friends.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| I don't like not buying successes? What's your rational? Just to try and guarantee that mild addicts might fail? Also, I'd say roll willpower + willpower since you're resisting a craving. I could see including body because high body folk might have a reduced dependency on drugs, so either way really works. |
If you can buy successes, you're guaranteed to never increase your addiction when you're stats are high enough, which I find unreasonable. Arguably, some drugs should be willpower x2 while others should include body in the roll, but for the sake of simplicity I made them all the same. I also wanted to give the PCs a better chance of succeeding on the roll since most of the time body is higher than will.
| QUOTE |
| I also like the penalties of -0/-1/-2/-3 better than -1/-2/-3 if only because the book indicates that mild addicts may not even be aware they have an addiction (yet) and to make burnout worse than severe addictions. |
I disagree with the book's interpretation there. And burnout is already worse than severe because of the risk of stat/essence/etc loss.
| QUOTE |
| Seems like this makes increasing addiction extremely rare. With an average dice pool of 6 (human normal status used) we're looking at an average of 2 hits regardless. I'd say that the addiction penalty should probably apply to this test as well to increase the chances that folk with a more trying addiction are likely to increase said addiction. Also, if we go with my penalties, then mild addicts end up rolling they're normal pool in both your set and my set of rules. |
My intent was to make it rare. My players have stayed away from drugs for their PCs in the past. If I make it too harsh, they'll never give it a try.
| QUOTE |
| Cool, and handy to get people addicted to more than one drug, I suppose, but I think that taking -- for example -- a narcotic to relieve your stimulant craving wouldn't make sense. You could take a different stimulant (e.g. Cram instead of Psyche) but risk becoming addicted to both stimulants (yikes!) |
It makes perfect sense. Have you ever seen how many smokers you'll find at an AA meeting? My ex's sponsor actually encouraged her to smoke, until she had at least a year of sobriety, as a replacement addiction (the lesser of two evils).
| QUOTE |
| I don't like that the recovering addict state can be reached from all addictions. I'd say that to recover from an addiction, you must pass the consequtive craving tests as above but that reduces you from one level to another (burnout to severe, severe to moderate, moderate to mild, mild to none). |
While that might make sense on paper, it's not realistic enough for me. Recovering addicts that relapse go right back to the condition they were in before (sometimes worse in fact). And this suggestion also gives the impression of weening off the drug, which isn't how it works.
| QUOTE |
| I don't like this; karma should be necessary if only to keep things inline with other flaws. Granted, I don't have a better solution. |
Again, I find this to be too harsh for my players' taste.
| QUOTE |
| I'm not sure I understand this. So if you're moderately addicted to stims and narcotics (specific drugs notwithstanding) you're only ever at a -2 (or -1 in my set) penalty? |
You can only be addicted once to drugs. The AA crowd lumps them all together so that's where my bias comes from. Foci, drugs, and VR/BTLs are all different enough IMO that they warrant separate addictions, however. But you got the gist of it. If a PC is addicted to both VR and foci, the largest penalty they could have is -2, not -4. This is something I should clarify on the list.
Thanks for your input
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| My one criticism is that I think the recovering addict test is too frequent. Rather than have a roll once a month I'd be inclined to have them roll when given the opportunity to fall back into the habit, and in times of mental duress (basically GM fiat). |
Mental duress is a good idea. I already presented the idea of "when in the presence of their addiction," but perhaps I should expand/clarify that. They roll once a month because of the times I've heard people relapsing for no apparent reason and to give the player the impression that the addiction is always nagging in the back of your mind.
Thanks ornot.
I could tell you had some IRL experience by the text only; just to start by saying that addictions are "semipermanent" show some contact with the real thing.
I really like your ruleset, this numbers could help those who like their game crunchy. I particularly agree with many of the decisions you have made, specially the time frame for the non substance addictions.
As a different take: How about Force as the addiction threshold for Foci?
Anyway, I may copy / paste / tell my players the whole post before next session.
Cheers,
Max
I really like your ruleset, this numbers could help those who like their game crunchy. I particularly agree with many of the decisions you have made, specially the time frame for the non substance addictions.
As a different take: How about Force as the addiction threshold for Foci?
Anyway, I may copy / paste / tell my players the whole post before next session.
Cheers,
Max
| QUOTE |
I really like your ruleset, this numbers could help those who like their game crunchy. I particularly agree with many of the decisions you have made, specially the time frame for the non substance addictions. |
Thanks
| QUOTE |
| As a different take: How about Force as the addiction threshold for Foci? |
Thats not a bad idea, but it would make higher force foci useless. Maybe force/2 rounded up? Yea, I think I like that...
I like F/2 for addiction threshold on foci, too.
What was your rational for the Willpower + 1d6 of consecutive use as the interval for the addiction test for Hot VT, BTLs, and Foci?
What was your rational for the Willpower + 1d6 of consecutive use as the interval for the addiction test for Hot VT, BTLs, and Foci?
| QUOTE (Dashifen @ Feb 1 2007, 10:01 AM) |
| I like F/2 for addiction threshold on foci, too. What was your rational for the Willpower + 1d6 of consecutive use as the interval for the addiction test for Hot VT, BTLs, and Foci? |
Well I wanted it time based and willpower seemed like the most reasonable stat to use. The extra 1d6 prevents the player from knowing exactly when to pull the plug. I wanted the time to not be fixed, but not completely random either.
Good rational. My players tend to avoid metagaming with respect to their stats as much as possible, but the 1d6 does seem to be handy. You mind if I try to write these up more formally rather than your bullet points? I don't want to offend in anyway, I just prefer a more paragaphical structure than a list when presenting rules to my players.
Go right ahead. I actually wouldn't mind seeing a better format either, if you want to post it here.
Another question: in the description for the addiction negative qualities, the penalties to resist cravings are -2, -4, and -6. Any reason you cut them in half? The penalties seem rather severe to me, but I've been lax in my games in forcing people to handle their addictions in game (note to self) so I have no frame of reference for how severe these may be.
Also, I'm going to write these up for my own use so my rulings may not be exactly as you've written yours above. I'll like to a PDF for download and a Word Document so that you can edit the rules for your own tastes later. Sound good, ShadowDragon?
Edit: Didn't get them done and I need to get to bed. I'll see what I can finish up tomorrow. As I write things up I found some things I think we should include specifically Craving Test modifiers. Things like being in a stressful situation or in the presence of others using drugs or using that character's drug-of-choice should make cravings harder to resist.
I'm also working on some specific rules indicating Withdrawal but I'll wait until I have a complete write up to share before I expand to much. I personally have no experience with addiction nor have I had to help or watch anyone else suffer from one so I'm interested in seeing your take on them. I'll have them up tomorrow, probably by noon (Central Standard Time).
Also, I'm going to write these up for my own use so my rulings may not be exactly as you've written yours above. I'll like to a PDF for download and a Word Document so that you can edit the rules for your own tastes later. Sound good, ShadowDragon?
Edit: Didn't get them done and I need to get to bed. I'll see what I can finish up tomorrow. As I write things up I found some things I think we should include specifically Craving Test modifiers. Things like being in a stressful situation or in the presence of others using drugs or using that character's drug-of-choice should make cravings harder to resist.
I'm also working on some specific rules indicating Withdrawal but I'll wait until I have a complete write up to share before I expand to much. I personally have no experience with addiction nor have I had to help or watch anyone else suffer from one so I'm interested in seeing your take on them. I'll have them up tomorrow, probably by noon (Central Standard Time).
| QUOTE |
| Another question: in the description for the addiction negative qualities, the penalties to resist cravings are -2, -4, and -6. Any reason you cut them in half? The penalties seem rather severe to me, but I've been lax in my games in forcing people to handle their addictions in game (note to self) so I have no frame of reference for how severe these may be. |
You hit the nail on the head. They're too severe; just look at the stats. Your average person has 3 body, 3 will and drug resist thresholds go as high as 3. A moderate addict would have no chance of resisting a craving, let alone severe/burnout. It makes addiction unplayable without super stats.
| QUOTE |
| Edit: Didn't get them done and I need to get to bed. I'll see what I can finish up tomorrow. As I write things up I found some things I think we should include specifically Craving Test modifiers. Things like being in a stressful situation or in the presence of others using drugs or using that character's drug-of-choice should make cravings harder to resist. |
Yeah, thanks for finding another oversight. Those should be modifiers.
| QUOTE |
| I'm also working on some specific rules indicating Withdrawal but I'll wait until I have a complete write up to share before I expand to much. I personally have no experience with addiction nor have I had to help or watch anyone else suffer from one so I'm interested in seeing your take on them. I'll have them up tomorrow, probably by noon (Central Standard Time). |
Yet another oversight lol...see that's why I posted these here. I'm looking forward to seeing your write up.
I recommend the movies Spun and Requiem for a Dream. They give a chillingly accurate perspective (though maybe a little exaggerated in some ways). When I first started dating my ex she made me watch them to understand her situation a little better.
Erm, the combination of high dose/hit plus high seem to indicate that someone at the severe/burnout level of addiction requires 20 doses a day to avoid penalties (2 hits a day/ 10doses a hit). you might want to seperate the dose vs hit amounts for bonus game effects (if any) vs simple addiction maintenance. So maybe a severe addict only requires 5 actual doses/day to prevent withdrawal, but if they wanted to actually feel good they would require much more.
I noticed that, too. Plus, the rules for overdosing in the RAW state that doses > Body may cause damage. Not sure that's a major problem because once you're at Burnout you should be obviously suffering. Okay, so I couldn't sleep without finishing. I'm not all the way done yet; the "extra" information about BTLs, Focus, and Hot VR addiction still needs to get added to the bottom.
Dashifen.Drugs and Addiction.01.pdf
Here's a write up for the rules version 01.
Changes from the above:
Known Internal Inconsistencies:
Consider this one a draft. I'm not sure I like the point at which Withdrawal kicks in yet. I put it at Body + Willpower - Addition Threshold + Addiction Penalty in Craving Tests. Thus a person might resist one or two tests without Withdrawal but after that they start to see some symptoms. Frankly, I have no idea if this is accurate for Mild Addictions since a person might be fine for a week or two and then start to suffer from Withdrawal at that point. As I said above, I don't have much practical experience with addiction so I leave that for you to describe, SD.
I also don't think I worded things very clearly with respect to the fact that Withdrawal Symptoms and Addiction Penalties don't stack.
The PDF was from a Word document (I can post that, too, if you want it to make sweeping changes) so you should be able to copy and paste text out of it if you need to.
Work's gonna suck tomorrow. Here's to sacrificing sleep for Shadowrun! And I'm supposed to run a Vampire LARP (yes, I'm one of *those* guys) tomorrow night, too.
Dashifen.Drugs and Addiction.01.pdf
Here's a write up for the rules version 01.
Changes from the above:
- Kept Addition Penalties as -2, -4, -6 according to the RAW. Seemed to work out okay for my examples though the threshold of 3 for Narcotics and Triphips could become nigh unreachable without some of the positive craving test modifiers kicking in.
- Added Craving Modifiers (including Peer Pressure!!)
- Added Withdrawal as a distinct "phase" in recovery.
- Added some specific information about Support Groups.
- Added a Karma cost to remove (after Withdrawal and after Recovery). I'm a stickler for consistence with the RAW in my house rules so we can all just alter things to the way we want them when we're done.
Known Internal Inconsistencies:
- In the first example starring Kohl I forgot to reduce his Craving Test pool by the Addiction Penalty of -2.
- Numerous uses of they when him/her should be used to reflect gender of person used in most recent example.
Consider this one a draft. I'm not sure I like the point at which Withdrawal kicks in yet. I put it at Body + Willpower - Addition Threshold + Addiction Penalty in Craving Tests. Thus a person might resist one or two tests without Withdrawal but after that they start to see some symptoms. Frankly, I have no idea if this is accurate for Mild Addictions since a person might be fine for a week or two and then start to suffer from Withdrawal at that point. As I said above, I don't have much practical experience with addiction so I leave that for you to describe, SD.
I also don't think I worded things very clearly with respect to the fact that Withdrawal Symptoms and Addiction Penalties don't stack.
The PDF was from a Word document (I can post that, too, if you want it to make sweeping changes) so you should be able to copy and paste text out of it if you need to.
Work's gonna suck tomorrow. Here's to sacrificing sleep for Shadowrun! And I'm supposed to run a Vampire LARP (yes, I'm one of *those* guys) tomorrow night, too.
Have to say I like it except for one thing- bonuses that go over the augmented maximums.
I know the people I play with well-enough that they'll look at addiction as just a nuisance and focus on the all important higher traits/dice pool breaking the caps instead. My experience makes me believe alot of other players will look at that first as well.
I know the people I play with well-enough that they'll look at addiction as just a nuisance and focus on the all important higher traits/dice pool breaking the caps instead. My experience makes me believe alot of other players will look at that first as well.
| QUOTE (GM on the Threshold) |
| Have to say I like it except for one thing- bonuses that go over the augmented maximums. I know the people I play with well-enough that they'll look at addiction as just a nuisance and focus on the all important higher traits/dice pool breaking the caps instead. My experience makes me believe alot of other players will look at that first as well. |
I can understand your position, but that rule is one that's more tailored to my players. It's an incentive for my players to give combat drugs a try because they've been ignored so far. Even after I made these rules, so far only one player wants to use them.
| QUOTE |
| I can understand your position, but that rule is one that's more tailored to my players. It's an incentive for my players to give combat drugs a try because they've been ignored so far. Even after I made these rules, so far only one player wants to use them. |
I'm suprised only one player was willing to risk it. Even with the augmentation limits in effect, almost every player in my group intends to work some angle of comat drugs for a boost in there (consequences bedamned).
Although I must admit, when we restarted with the 4edit rules we did a char redo storyline to explain how everyone lost everything they had (including 5 years) and so no one was allowed any cyber or bio at (re)creation. And at our current point, nobodys still been able to afford getting any cyber back in.
Makes the drugs look alot more palatable when you've got nothing but some used guns you've bought off of a Triad fish merchant.
Interesting, none of my players use combat drugs either. Even the mages who can potentially see the greatest benefit from the extra initiative passes or the benefits of psyche don't go that route. The only drug addiction I've seen in games so far is Cram and one to BTLs.
I had a TM moderately addicted to Bliss, but she was an NPC, and bliss is hardly a utility drug, for all that she had "low pain threshold" which the bliss partly mitigates.
I'm trying to get my players to get their characters to use more drugs. They're so prude-ish about it. So far I've let them have them for free (as part of their lifestyle) and flat-out told them that the only way addiction tests are going to enter the game is if they want to play an addict or if they're going way overboard and using combat drugs 3+ times per session. I have random dealers give them free drugs, or free BTLs, and they still won't do it!
I have one character who is sort of planning on using some, but the player always forgets to use it until after the fight is started, and then it's too late to bother with it, apparently.
Oops, I'm ranting. Sorry. [/rant]
I have one character who is sort of planning on using some, but the player always forgets to use it until after the fight is started, and then it's too late to bother with it, apparently.
Oops, I'm ranting. Sorry. [/rant]
I've been running into the opposite problem. Aside from the characters mentioned above, my players tend to take the addictions as negative qualities but then we forget to role play them resulting in free build points which are bad.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| I've been running into the opposite problem. Aside from the characters mentioned above, my players tend to take the addictions as negative qualities but then we forget to role play them resulting in free build points which are bad. |
Here's how I would handle that problem:
At whatever time I felt like it, I'd ask for some kind of willpower test or addiction test or something (I don't know, I'd have to read over the rules) and if they fail, tell them that they've done their drug of choice in a moment of weakness. It may be horribly inappropriate, such as taking combat drugs before a meet, or may simply leave them facing crash effects at a bad time. They will whine, at which time you tell them "Roll play your own addictions at times of your choosing, or I will."
You only have to remember once or twice in such a way that will cause them to remember. If they're making occasional comments to acknowledge their characters' addictions, then that's great, RPing is happening, and you don't need to force them into anything. After this, they'll occasionally mention they're indulging themselves at whatever time is appropriate, or maybe even just between sessions, but at least it's getting some RP-time.
Just to be perfectly clear, I am advocating this only as a way to combat the free BP from a completely ignored flaw. I would never do this to someone who actually plays their own flaws.
True, the real problem is that I generally forget as well, but thats a seperate thing. I'm hoping that with some real mechanics backing me up I'll either see (a) less characters with addictions or (b) characters with addictions who know what they're getting into.
Anyway, any comments on the rules as they stand? If not I'm pretty happy with what I posted above. I'll add on the stuff about VR, BTLs, and Foci but otherwise probably call this conversation somewhat completed.
Anyway, any comments on the rules as they stand? If not I'm pretty happy with what I posted above. I'll add on the stuff about VR, BTLs, and Foci but otherwise probably call this conversation somewhat completed.
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