according to the technology utilizing a commlink for AR involves physical actions, moving icons, pressing virtual buttons etc...
it's rather obvious when someone is doing it.
but then again, it would be impossible to hide, in general you don't need to hide it. Since everyone is on AR then it doesn't really matter who sees you, unless you are hidden, or somewhere you aren't supposed to be.
so can an implanted comlink be used without physical motions?
can technomancers do the same?
Full Version: using AR
Would assume with dni you'd control implanted versions with thoughts as opposed to physical motion. Guess same for Technomancers as it seems to be purely mental ability.
Physical motions with AR would mean using gloves and eyeware to manipulate data, dont imagine techno or implant would require those.
Physical motions with AR would mean using gloves and eyeware to manipulate data, dont imagine techno or implant would require those.
heh, this reminds me of when the nintendo wii controller where first introduced.
even if the interaction requires physical actions, it does not say to what degree those are needed. as in, a small movement of the hand and fingers may be enough if the AR interface is set up correctly.
even if the interaction requires physical actions, it does not say to what degree those are needed. as in, a small movement of the hand and fingers may be enough if the AR interface is set up correctly.
I agree with Prime Mover. Unless you're interacting with AR via gloves some other assistive technology, you're giving neural commands via a datajack or trode rig. Then you can just do your AR thing without anyone being the wiser.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| heh, this reminds me of when the nintendo wii controller where first introduced. even if the interaction requires physical actions, it does not say to what degree those are needed. as in, a small movement of the hand and fingers may be enough if the AR interface is set up correctly. |
Grins...
as Gremlins/Uneducated Troll flings his commlink across the room trying to use gestures to manipulate AROs.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| I agree with Prime Mover. Unless you're interacting with AR via gloves some other assistive technology, you're giving neural commands via a datajack or trode rig. Then you can just do your AR thing without anyone being the wiser. |
It's also possible that in AR the body overrides (called something like RAS overide in the fluff) that occur in VR that prevent your body from moving would be absent. So perhaps if AR is overlaying a type of VR over your RR (real reality?), then the hand motions may be neccessary in order to send the appropriate DNI signals unless you're somehow specially trained, or missing the limb that you're supposed to be moving...
I've got a troll shaman who carries around a pair of AR gloves, because he refuses to have any implants. In 2070, it's assumed that most people have at least a few implants, and that Datajacks are as common as cell phones, though most people's datajacks would be plugged pretty much permanently into their commlinks.
Even then, jack the sensitivity of your mouse up, and see just how much movement it takes to get from one side of the screen to the other. I have to move mine about an inch right now, and I imagine that's about as much hand/finger movement as would ever be required, though when excited, playing some kind of AR game, or whatever, it might be more obvious. Overall, if you were messing around in AR with gloves, no one would really be able to tell that you wern't just fiddling around with your fingers.
Even then, jack the sensitivity of your mouse up, and see just how much movement it takes to get from one side of the screen to the other. I have to move mine about an inch right now, and I imagine that's about as much hand/finger movement as would ever be required, though when excited, playing some kind of AR game, or whatever, it might be more obvious. Overall, if you were messing around in AR with gloves, no one would really be able to tell that you wern't just fiddling around with your fingers.
You're assuming there is some sort of floating pointer and your gloves activate some sort of floating device.
I'm not sure how the AR in SR really works, but it could very well be that your actual hand is the pointer. And you actually point at things and manipulate 3D virtual objects projected into your field of vision.
Even with DNI, and that could easily be through nanopaste trodes that are just as good as a datajack for DNI you may still be moving your hand to move your virtual pointer, unless you've got some sort of partial RAS override and you can stick your hand in your pocket and turn off the signal to that hand.
I'm not sure how the AR in SR really works, but it could very well be that your actual hand is the pointer. And you actually point at things and manipulate 3D virtual objects projected into your field of vision.
Even with DNI, and that could easily be through nanopaste trodes that are just as good as a datajack for DNI you may still be moving your hand to move your virtual pointer, unless you've got some sort of partial RAS override and you can stick your hand in your pocket and turn off the signal to that hand.
All I'm saying is that tiny movements from your hand could equate to significant effects in AR. this means that these movements could be rather easily concealed.
I quess my point is that there probably isn't much for cannon and you could interpret it any way you like.
It's one of those places where as a GM it pays to have a vivid picture in your head of what the world is like so you can pluck out of your subconcious the little details you fill in between the cannon bits.
It's one of those places where as a GM it pays to have a vivid picture in your head of what the world is like so you can pluck out of your subconcious the little details you fill in between the cannon bits.
I guess there's some sort of sensitivity setting, just like there are for mouse pointers today.
We have interfaces today that work by eye movement. You move the pointer by looking in another direction and you squint to click or double-click or whatever. They're still experimental, as far as I know, like cyberwear today, but I've always assumed that AR included this. Or at least that it could.
| QUOTE (Pyritefoolsgold) |
| All I'm saying is that tiny movements from your hand could equate to significant effects in AR. this means that these movements could be rather easily concealed. |
not really, in an AR environment you are the interface so the icon that in the top left of your view, needs to have your hand reach up all the way to it and grab it in order to manipulate it, a finger gesture won't work since there isn't anything to tie it to.
how about have different settings, like themes? You could have a hand waving and gesture system (where you give your commands in latin and get shot for looking like a mage 
). You could have a subvocalized system ( you could get the street name Mumbles! ). You coud control it mentally if you have the direct connection. You could tap on your leg and use it's movements to control it. You could even assign your crotch as the pointer pad and scratch away at the Matrix!
). You could have a subvocalized system ( you could get the street name Mumbles! ). You coud control it mentally if you have the direct connection. You could tap on your leg and use it's movements to control it. You could even assign your crotch as the pointer pad and scratch away at the Matrix!
| QUOTE (djinni) | ||
not really, in an AR environment you are the interface so the icon that in the top left of your view, needs to have your hand reach up all the way to it and grab it in order to manipulate it, a finger gesture won't work since there isn't anything to tie it to. |
today we have keyboard shortcuts for just about anything (hell, on linux there are some guis that are made specifically to be controlled by mostly keyboard) so i dont find it unlikely that a power user/hacker would have said "shorthand" memorized.
under that system some quick gestures can be all thats needed to jump from one visible icon to the next (kinda like alt-tab, and now win-tab in windows, and similar in most other).
so while a casual user (thats most joe wageslaves out there) would do what you describe, there can be people thats walking down the street and hacking a node at the same time
I assumed that if you have some method of neural interface, like a datajack or trodes, then you control AR with thoughts, no gestures necessary. Some people might still use gestures purely to help them focus, especially if they're inexperienced with DNI. Without DNI, you can use AR gloves to control it, and some kind of display, like image-linked glasses or contacts, to see it. I also allow for the possibility that some comms are like PDAs or cell phones, so you can just use the built-in display and touch screen or buttons on it to control it.
i just recalled some talk about a monkey some time back.
it was wired to a computer and controlled a robotic arm via a joystick.
later on they disconnected said joystick and use the monkeys brain patterns to control the arm.
at first the monkey still moved the stick around, but later on, without any prodding by the researchers, it let go of the stick and just sat there moving the arm by thought alone.
this indicates that the brain is able to fake a movement, or rather think it but block it before it reach the arm itself.
it was wired to a computer and controlled a robotic arm via a joystick.
later on they disconnected said joystick and use the monkeys brain patterns to control the arm.
at first the monkey still moved the stick around, but later on, without any prodding by the researchers, it let go of the stick and just sat there moving the arm by thought alone.
this indicates that the brain is able to fake a movement, or rather think it but block it before it reach the arm itself.
To me, you will only make gestures if you´re using AR gloves. If you have a implanted commlink, trodes, a datajack or a skinlink, you control the AR interface by thought alone. Other option is to use the controls built into the commlink itself (buttons, track ball, etc.), but it takes more time than the other ways.
One way or the other, it´s pretty stealthy. Only if somebody is paying specific attention to you, they won´t even dream that you´re using an AR interface. Of course, if you are using AR gloves, it makes the whole thing pretty obvious.
And technomancers do this without blinking an eye.
One way or the other, it´s pretty stealthy. Only if somebody is paying specific attention to you, they won´t even dream that you´re using an AR interface. Of course, if you are using AR gloves, it makes the whole thing pretty obvious.
And technomancers do this without blinking an eye.
I've never understood why they wrote it this way. There doesn't seem to be any point to AR gloves. SR4 states that the way most people experience augmented reality is through DNI and a sim module. It's also cheaper than the more cumbersome AR gloves. Why even present an alternative when it's more expensive, more obvious, and less useful? DNI is very, very mature tech by 2070. The older generation has been using it most of their lives. The only way it makes sense is if using AR by DNI is user output only.
People who are sensitive to cyberware, for various reasons, or people who are simply sensitive or immune to any sort of simsense (spirits, people with simsense vertigo) would pay the extra for these devices.
Perhaps even the truly paranoid who worry about mental and emotional manipulation via DNI, simsense, and so on.
Perhaps even the truly paranoid who worry about mental and emotional manipulation via DNI, simsense, and so on.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| I've never understood why they wrote it this way. There doesn't seem to be any point to AR gloves. |
so you have a DNI for your commlink that doesn't mean you don't have to move your hands it just means that the predefined area that tha AR gloves had aren't needed since your DNI defines it from your system.
while using an AR system interface, and "not" moving, what movement are you "thinking" about to introduce movement? this isnt' a custom tailored system designed specifically for you it's an off the shelf computer system you modify.
in AR interfaces actual movement is needed, in amputees, paraplegic etc. actual movement isn't needed it's just the thought of the movment. hence there is a need for an RAS override.
| QUOTE (2bit @ Feb 7 2007, 12:03 PM) |
| I've never understood why they wrote it this way. There doesn't seem to be any point to AR gloves. SR4 states that the way most people experience augmented reality is through DNI and a sim module. It's also cheaper than the more cumbersome AR gloves. Why even present an alternative when it's more expensive, more obvious, and less useful? DNI is very, very mature tech by 2070. The older generation has been using it most of their lives. The only way it makes sense is if using AR by DNI is user output only. |
Some people don't like using direct-thought interfaces. My favorite Shaman character uses AR gloves because he doesn't feel the need to have computers controlled by his brain. and some people can't afford anything better.. It also gives that great Johnny Mnemonic vibe.
And I don't imagine AR gloves are really any more cumbersome than any pair of leather gloves.
One key disadvantage of using AR via simsense is that it opens all your senses, including emotion, open to hacking. If your just experiancing AR through an image link, ear buds, and AR gloves you have significantly less that can be hacked in the way of senses.
Besides, consider this, many people simply wouldn't like the full sensory and emotional output a simsense unit provides, especially those people who arn't paticuarly good with computers, they would rather manipulate AR interfaces with actions they understand more then mental impulses.
Besides, consider this, many people simply wouldn't like the full sensory and emotional output a simsense unit provides, especially those people who arn't paticuarly good with computers, they would rather manipulate AR interfaces with actions they understand more then mental impulses.
| QUOTE |
| so you have a DNI for your commlink that doesn't mean you don't have to move your hands it just means that the predefined area that tha AR gloves had aren't needed since your DNI defines it from your system. |
No, you really don't have to move to execute commands in AR if you're liked by DNI. No need to type, no need to point at things. You just have to think about what you want to do. There's no reason I can see someone using DNI-sim module AR can't control interfaces via motions as if they were wearing gloves, though.
| QUOTE |
| Some people don't like using direct-thought interfaces. My favorite Shaman character uses AR gloves because he doesn't feel the need to have computers controlled by his brain. |
I can understand this reason, even though I would look at this person funny for wanting to wear a pair of gloves all the time instead.
| QUOTE |
| and some people can't afford anything better.. It also gives that great Johnny Mnemonic vibe. |
It does give that vibe, but like I said, a sim module and trodes combined are actually cheaper than gloves, and let you do more (like, I dunno, play simsense!).
| QUOTE |
| One key disadvantage of using AR via simsense is that it opens all your senses, including emotion, open to hacking. If your just experiancing AR through an image link, ear buds, and AR gloves you have significantly less that can be hacked in the way of senses. |
True, it's less hack-friendly.
| QUOTE |
| Besides, consider this, many people simply wouldn't like the full sensory and emotional output a simsense unit provides, especially those people who arn't paticuarly good with computers, they would rather manipulate AR interfaces with actions they understand more then mental impulses. |
Only the elderly in 2070 have been around longer than simsense. DNI is old hat to these folks. Turning off the emotive track is easy and probably even the factory default setting for commlinks in AR mode. Additionaly, AR gloves provide sensory input by themselves. If the user doesn't like that, they're probably just going to use the iPod style menu wheel on the commlink itself.
We already have a canon interpretation of what it is like to view someone who is using AR while conversing with someone else. See the scene with the hacker in On The Run. Gave rules for spotting whether she was using AR to contact help while she was talking to the runners.
I'd say that a game product from FanPro is as canon as you can get.
I'd say that a game product from FanPro is as canon as you can get.
edit: found it
I really would not use rules from On The Run. From a rules point of view, On The Run was a catastrophe (things like unhackability because of old code and so on). Well, also from the concept of the run and what was expected of the players (like looking at data chips they had no reason to look at).
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| I really would not use rules from On The Run. From a rules point of view, On The Run was a catastrophe (things like unhackability because of old code and so on). Well, also from the concept of the run and what was expected of the players (like looking at data chips they had no reason to look at). |
I agree that it was a horrible run. More like an "adventure" than a run. Felt like I was running VtR with all the goth vampires running around.
The good thing about the book is that it does provide a canon look at how to use rules and presents some ways that the world works. Hacking is really as easy as I thought it was when I read the rules. Now I can move on from trying to make it harder to hack and concentrate on what sort of responses and uses I can get from the new tech/rules.
@Djinni
I am at work right now so I can't give you a page reference. There was a scene in the adventure where the runners go to a hacker club to talk to this lesbian dwarf hacker. In the section about Running the Scene (or whatever they are called) it broaches the subject of intimidation and threats and what her response is. In one of those paragraphs it lists perception test thresholds for noticing her using AR to contact the guy who is auctioning the chip.
I always felt that using AR gloves was like the scene in Johnny Mnemonic where he was screwing around on the net. You only have to use a small field but you kinda hold your hands up like they're at an imaginary keyboard. It's visible and if you keep the default settings you can easily be spotted using them. However, if you use a custom profile then you probably could set up a less obvious way of using AR.
Using DNI you don't make any physical movement except for maybe your eyes flicking around or possible a vacant stare on your face. If you get really good you can probably hack a node while IMing your chummers, chewing gum and dodging the traffic walking down the street in Downtown Seattle.
Oh yeah, although On The Run was a good tying up of a previous plot it felt like I was playing a crappy VtR game with all those stupid vampires running around. Course, I'm actually surprised that IEs or GDs weren't involved.
Using DNI you don't make any physical movement except for maybe your eyes flicking around or possible a vacant stare on your face. If you get really good you can probably hack a node while IMing your chummers, chewing gum and dodging the traffic walking down the street in Downtown Seattle.
Oh yeah, although On The Run was a good tying up of a previous plot it felt like I was playing a crappy VtR game with all those stupid vampires running around. Course, I'm actually surprised that IEs or GDs weren't involved.
Lol... IE's were involved. If you'd investigated the content of the song, totally unbidden, and for no apparent reason it would have told you all the secrets of the IEs.
I'm leary of using the Johnny Mnemonic/Tek Wars style net interaction in my games. While I am a fan of the old school cyberpunk and prefer to run my games more like that I cave in to modern tastes and try to keep everything more Matrix'y.
Man do I want to see Smokin' Aces...
I'm leary of using the Johnny Mnemonic/Tek Wars style net interaction in my games. While I am a fan of the old school cyberpunk and prefer to run my games more like that I cave in to modern tastes and try to keep everything more Matrix'y.
Man do I want to see Smokin' Aces...
Smokin' Aces is fantastic.
how about this. allow Perception tests to spot when someone is actively using AR. base it on the difficulty of the task the AR-user is performing--the harder the task, the easier it is to spot. for easier tasks, AR users are more able to concentrate on using subtle movements and disguising their motions; with harder tasks, you have to expend more concentration on the job at hand, making it harder to disguise what you're doing.
this applies even to DNI AR users, because using AR in DNI still feels like you're moving your fingers and whatnot. unless you concentrate, you still mime the motions you'd use without DNI.
no real need for this rule, i just thought it might be a good way to add some flavor to the game.
how about this. allow Perception tests to spot when someone is actively using AR. base it on the difficulty of the task the AR-user is performing--the harder the task, the easier it is to spot. for easier tasks, AR users are more able to concentrate on using subtle movements and disguising their motions; with harder tasks, you have to expend more concentration on the job at hand, making it harder to disguise what you're doing.
this applies even to DNI AR users, because using AR in DNI still feels like you're moving your fingers and whatnot. unless you concentrate, you still mime the motions you'd use without DNI.
no real need for this rule, i just thought it might be a good way to add some flavor to the game.
Well in OtR it was actually fluffed as a momentary lapse of attention...sort of like how you can spot a mage astrally perceiving. So yeah if you are doing something harder then it should be easier to spot as you zone out more.
p. 21 bottom left paragraph.
"She will simultaneously try to use her commlink to contact Loomis and warn him, but give the team hacker/technomancer (sigh!) a Perception + Intuition (4) test to notice -- unless they've already hacked her commlink or are intercepting her wireless traffic, the only outward indication is a momentary attention loss..."
p. 21 bottom left paragraph.
"She will simultaneously try to use her commlink to contact Loomis and warn him, but give the team hacker/technomancer (sigh!) a Perception + Intuition (4) test to notice -- unless they've already hacked her commlink or are intercepting her wireless traffic, the only outward indication is a momentary attention loss..."
| QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 8 2007, 01:26 AM) |
| this applies even to DNI AR users, because using AR in DNI still feels like you're moving your fingers and whatnot. unless you concentrate, you still mime the motions you'd use without DNI. |
"Curse my lack of RAS override!"
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