As written the surprise rules worked well enough as long as it was one on one or similarly low numbers. It has also been servicable if I chunked groups together so the PCs either were or weren't surprised.
However I recently had a situation with two respectibly sized groups and it was kind of important who was surprised by who. The results for trying to use the rules was a completely ridiculous gordian knot of who can attack who. Not only was it overly complicated but, again, ridiculous as people could target a guy in the back but not the person closer to them and so on.
At that point I threw up my hands and just decided to hand out initiative modifiers based on the surprise tests to get on with the game.
Now that I've thought about it more I like the initiative modifier approach. It's much faster, less cumbersome, and usually produces the same results since the surprise test is an initiative test.
Anyway I'm wondering what you do for surprise and if you like the int modifier idea what numbers would be good in your opinion?
*Edit: And is there a good way to mimic the lost action possibility
Full Version: Surprise
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Anyway I'm wondering what you do for surprise and if you like the int modifier idea what numbers would be good in your opinion? |
easy:
surprised = "OMG THERE'S PEOPLE!"
not surprised = "oh look I'm shooting those people."
I'm a bad person. I largely ignore surprise rules unless it is a purposeful ambush situation. Then I treat it as either one group getting ambushed using the standard surprise rules OR 1 simple or 1 complex action by one of the attackers then kicks off init rolls since everyone is running active commlinks or within verbal/visual communication range. I suppose there are incidents where this might not be the case OR that single action is quiet enough not to be noticed, but I've found that to be rare in pratice. Especially since I find myself often on the ambushing side and I don't usually play my NPCs that smart.
I run the Surprise roll as basically an intiative roll for 1 Action pass. So you act in order of descending surprise hits until everyone has had their one pass. Then roll intiative and start a normal round.
I do this because I use surprise a lot. I use it to simulate the "While I'm talking to the guy I whip out my gun and shoot," and the "you turn a corner and stumble on the other team's street sam." Basically it is more like initiative because I am trying to find out who reacts fastest.
I do this because I use surprise a lot. I use it to simulate the "While I'm talking to the guy I whip out my gun and shoot," and the "you turn a corner and stumble on the other team's street sam." Basically it is more like initiative because I am trying to find out who reacts fastest.
That's a good option Cheops. I tend to do one group surprise roll determining which group is surprised. Then, the non-surprised group rolls again to determine who acts against whom using the surprised groups score as the roll for all members of the surprised group.
The surprise rules are pretty odd. I don't like them. I'm not sure why I'd want to have everyone roll initiative twice. But only count one of the rolls for initiative. The other makes it so you can't react to certain other people. Bah. Too clumsy.
I run ambush as an initiative bonus. If both sides are surprised, I just roll initiative normally. Everyone's on even ground. If someone lays an ambush, they roll Agility (or whatever might be appropriate, like Logic, maybe) + Infiltration (or another Stealth skill, if appropriate) + any relevant bonuses. The defenders resist with Intuition + Perception. Each net hit for the ambushers gets them a bonus die for initiative.
I run ambush as an initiative bonus. If both sides are surprised, I just roll initiative normally. Everyone's on even ground. If someone lays an ambush, they roll Agility (or whatever might be appropriate, like Logic, maybe) + Infiltration (or another Stealth skill, if appropriate) + any relevant bonuses. The defenders resist with Intuition + Perception. Each net hit for the ambushers gets them a bonus die for initiative.
Hmmm...I'm having trouble see the problem here, at least through our own experience. Yes, there are two initiative rolls, but the "surprise roll" only lasts one pass. For NPCs, I do group, so its the whole group surprised or none. I let the PCs roll individually.
Basically, everyone with a higher surprise roll than the group gets one IP with the surprised folks only able to soak damage, no reaction. Once that single IP is passed, we go into normal initiative...I don't find the RAW clunky at all.
Basically, everyone with a higher surprise roll than the group gets one IP with the surprised folks only able to soak damage, no reaction. Once that single IP is passed, we go into normal initiative...I don't find the RAW clunky at all.
They're clunky, deek, if you need or want to roll for all of the NPCs in addition to all the players. You've set up a nice over/under scenario with the NPC group roll as the baseline. However, if you roll for each member of an NPC group you have X baselines for over/under scenarios where X is the number in the NPC group. Thats where things start to get to be a pain.
Well, if you are rolling for each member of the NPC group, your normal initiative rolls are just as clunky and no worse/better than surprise.
I see where all of it is clunky if you are rolling for each NPC...my suggestion would be, don't do it that way:)
I see where all of it is clunky if you are rolling for each NPC...my suggestion would be, don't do it that way:)
My problem is that the surprise rules seem a little bit superfluous as written. The are just layered initiative rolls. You act in the order that one initiative roll indicates. You cannot react to anyone who gets better than you on the other initiative roll. All it means, on average, is that those who normally go first, (because of the relatively small variance in initiative results) can't get shot at the first pass, once they've taken their action.
Might as well just make one initiative roll and use it for both purposes.
Regardless, it just doesn't suit me. Doesn't feel right.
Might as well just make one initiative roll and use it for both purposes.
Regardless, it just doesn't suit me. Doesn't feel right.
Deek. First of all by clumping all NPCs you're already making a house rule. (I mean their description of surprise is that you might be surprised by one person but not another).
Also you're probably throwing out the whole bit about how PCs in a surprise situation can't interact with each other depending on their rolls.
I'm actually liking my intial idea about a straight initiative modifier less as that doesn't really capture surprise and the possibility of lost actions.
Right now I'm thinking that the surprise roll should be more like a success test to have yourself act smoothly instead of having some kind of startle response or some such. Something like
0 successes no defenses no actions in the first round
1 success defenses but no actions 1st round
2 successes defenses and only actions like diving for cover and the like
3 successes Act normally the first round.
Then 2x the successes will be added to the players intiative scores (so surprise still counts for something among people who can routinly get 3 successes).
Also if one side is totally unaware of the other, like a sniper a half mile down range, the first shot is "free" and then the surprise round starts.
Remember a round is three seconds so surprise doesn't last for long.
Also you're probably throwing out the whole bit about how PCs in a surprise situation can't interact with each other depending on their rolls.
I'm actually liking my intial idea about a straight initiative modifier less as that doesn't really capture surprise and the possibility of lost actions.
Right now I'm thinking that the surprise roll should be more like a success test to have yourself act smoothly instead of having some kind of startle response or some such. Something like
0 successes no defenses no actions in the first round
1 success defenses but no actions 1st round
2 successes defenses and only actions like diving for cover and the like
3 successes Act normally the first round.
Then 2x the successes will be added to the players intiative scores (so surprise still counts for something among people who can routinly get 3 successes).
Also if one side is totally unaware of the other, like a sniper a half mile down range, the first shot is "free" and then the surprise round starts.
Remember a round is three seconds so surprise doesn't last for long.
That's not completely true, as there are situational modifiers to the surprise test, giving opponents a chance to notice it before it happens or a major bonus if there was a good ambush.
I agree, in normal situations (meaning rolling surprise straight up with no modifiers), a character that normally goes first, is just going to go first again. But a +6 for an ambush...that could make a pretty big difference, IMO.
As for house ruling NPCs...I'm not sure about that. Everything I have read, when having a group, use "squad-based" rules. I mean, there is a group edge and all. Now, I am not saying that every NPC in a scenario shares, but if there is a group of 4-5 guards/gangers, I am going to handle them all with one roll.
And yes, I don't waive the fact that PCs in a surprise situation may not be able to interact with each other.
Overall, I've probably surprise come into play around 4-5 times, throughout our game...RAW hasn't seemed to cause any confusion or complaining...and we are only talking about the first IP...which is giving those with a good surprise roll a couple simple actions without worrying about the opponent reacting...
I agree, in normal situations (meaning rolling surprise straight up with no modifiers), a character that normally goes first, is just going to go first again. But a +6 for an ambush...that could make a pretty big difference, IMO.
As for house ruling NPCs...I'm not sure about that. Everything I have read, when having a group, use "squad-based" rules. I mean, there is a group edge and all. Now, I am not saying that every NPC in a scenario shares, but if there is a group of 4-5 guards/gangers, I am going to handle them all with one roll.
And yes, I don't waive the fact that PCs in a surprise situation may not be able to interact with each other.
Overall, I've probably surprise come into play around 4-5 times, throughout our game...RAW hasn't seemed to cause any confusion or complaining...and we are only talking about the first IP...which is giving those with a good surprise roll a couple simple actions without worrying about the opponent reacting...
That's all fine and dandy when it is just PCs versus mooks.
However, once you start throwing in stuff like Contacts, Allies, lieutenants, Enemies, other Runners, etc then stuff starts to bog down quickly.
Eg. PCs go to the meet with Johnson where they are handing off Dr. X. Sam and Face are in meet, mage is astral, and hacker is virtual. Johnson has 2 bodyguards with him, one mage in astral, a hacker in VR and 5 mooks waiting in the wings. Johnson is planning to double-cross so they count as ambushers (+6).
Now you, as GM, have to make 5 surprise checks (mooks, J, Dr, mage, and hacker), 4 of which get the +6 and the PCs have to make their checks. This is the same number of rolls as initiative and causes no problems as has been pointed out.
Initiative: Sam, PC mage, PC hacker, NPC mage, NPC hacker, face, J, Dr, Mooks
Surprise: NPC mage, NPC hacker, Sam, PC hacker, J, PC mage, Mooks, face, Dr
That's a tangled mess, especially for new players, or those who aren't rules-inclined.
However, once you start throwing in stuff like Contacts, Allies, lieutenants, Enemies, other Runners, etc then stuff starts to bog down quickly.
Eg. PCs go to the meet with Johnson where they are handing off Dr. X. Sam and Face are in meet, mage is astral, and hacker is virtual. Johnson has 2 bodyguards with him, one mage in astral, a hacker in VR and 5 mooks waiting in the wings. Johnson is planning to double-cross so they count as ambushers (+6).
Now you, as GM, have to make 5 surprise checks (mooks, J, Dr, mage, and hacker), 4 of which get the +6 and the PCs have to make their checks. This is the same number of rolls as initiative and causes no problems as has been pointed out.
Initiative: Sam, PC mage, PC hacker, NPC mage, NPC hacker, face, J, Dr, Mooks
Surprise: NPC mage, NPC hacker, Sam, PC hacker, J, PC mage, Mooks, face, Dr
That's a tangled mess, especially for new players, or those who aren't rules-inclined.
I like your example, but I am trying to understand how this is any different for a GM in about any other RPG? If a GM is finding this confusing, then s/he needs to work on organization skills. If its a player, well, they only need to roll and tell the GM a number, so there shouldn't be THAT much confusion.
I know that keeping track of IPs was difficult for me when I first started playing, but someone suggested writing 1-4 on a note card, set it on the table and move a die on the current pass...problem solved.
I know that keeping track of PC/NPC order was difficult for me when I first started playing, but then someone suggested using note cards for each PC/NPC, get the initiative score and then put them in order...problem solved.
I know that keeping track of NPC damage was difficult for me when I first started playing, but then someone suggested using triangles, with each point being a side, and then each triangle ended up being -1 wound modifier...problem solved.
I guess my point is, yes, surprise may require a bit of a learning curve, but after finding a "better way" to manage it and really, after you have done it enough times, it really does become easy. You shouldn't have to change the rules just because a GM initially finds something difficult. And really, you will obviously complicate any game by trying to keep track of every minute detail. I don't think 5 surprise checks, as a GM, is going to be the norm...and I would think the GM would know that there may be 5 checks before the encounter, thus minimizing the confusion...
I know that keeping track of IPs was difficult for me when I first started playing, but someone suggested writing 1-4 on a note card, set it on the table and move a die on the current pass...problem solved.
I know that keeping track of PC/NPC order was difficult for me when I first started playing, but then someone suggested using note cards for each PC/NPC, get the initiative score and then put them in order...problem solved.
I know that keeping track of NPC damage was difficult for me when I first started playing, but then someone suggested using triangles, with each point being a side, and then each triangle ended up being -1 wound modifier...problem solved.
I guess my point is, yes, surprise may require a bit of a learning curve, but after finding a "better way" to manage it and really, after you have done it enough times, it really does become easy. You shouldn't have to change the rules just because a GM initially finds something difficult. And really, you will obviously complicate any game by trying to keep track of every minute detail. I don't think 5 surprise checks, as a GM, is going to be the norm...and I would think the GM would know that there may be 5 checks before the encounter, thus minimizing the confusion...
also, never underestimate the power of pre-rolling your dice. If you know that if players get to point A there will be test B, roll test B before the game. The worst that happens is that you don't need the roll!
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I like your example, but I am trying to understand how this is any different for a GM in about any other RPG? If a GM is finding this confusing, then s/he needs to work on organization skills. If its a player, well, they only need to roll and tell the GM a number, so there shouldn't be THAT much confusion. |
It is not really me as a GM that I am worried about. I've been GMing for well on 15 years now so I know how to organize and I can handle a situation like this. But for players and new GMs trying to figure this out it can be tedious.
As I've said several times on this forum I had a player who played AD&D 2nd for almost a decade and he still couldn't figure out THAC0. I routinely run SR for people who have never played it before and I often have players that have never played an RPG before. I've had people who have trouble dealing with abstractions and people who have trouble suspending their disbelief.
And after all, it is the players that are deciding what their characters do and not a number generated by a set of dice. If the player can't figure out what is going on quickly because they can't figure out the rules I find that pointless. (BTW I use a rule that if a player takes too long I skip their turn--barring rules debates/clarifications).
My skill as a GM has nothing to do with my general dislike of how complicated this situation is. It is my skill as a GM that is telling me that it is unnecessarily complex. That's why I use my method instead.
By the way I like the example above.
Anyway it's not just the tangled mess its the unrealistic results you can get which you then have to explain to the player. Again as written the rules are designed so you can be surprised by one person but not another.
So you get stuff like.
GM: "Ok player A you have the highest intiative so you go first, you can attack the J or one of the mooks."
Player A: "What about the adept standing next to J?"
GM: "He surprised you."
Player A: "But I still get to go before him right."
GM: "Yeah"
Player A: " And I know that they're all trying to attack me right"
GM: "Yeah you can see them going for their guns"
Player A: "And I can shoot J right?"
GM: "Sure"
Player A: "And I could shoot the vase to the right of J correct?"
GM: " Well I suppose so."
Player A; "But I can't shoot the deathbringing adept to the left of J?"
GM: "That would be right out."
Player A: "Could I shoot the tree the adept is standing in front of?"
GM: "Uh, you'd be at -6 for the tree having full cover from the guy. And no I won't let you hit him that way."
Player A: *facepalms*
Now at first glance someone might say "Well you should just lump all the NPCs together" but then whats the point of the J bringing along the combat reflexed adept? What happens if it's the players drawing on the J and his guys? Do the prime runners stand around looking stupid like the mooks?
By the way this isn't a problem GMs of other systems have as surprise rules tend to be very different. Some you have to make a roll or lose actions on the first round, some just give a free round if you don't know about the assailants and some give an int mod.
I want to say that SR4 is unique in how it does it.
Anyway it's not just the tangled mess its the unrealistic results you can get which you then have to explain to the player. Again as written the rules are designed so you can be surprised by one person but not another.
So you get stuff like.
GM: "Ok player A you have the highest intiative so you go first, you can attack the J or one of the mooks."
Player A: "What about the adept standing next to J?"
GM: "He surprised you."
Player A: "But I still get to go before him right."
GM: "Yeah"
Player A: " And I know that they're all trying to attack me right"
GM: "Yeah you can see them going for their guns"
Player A: "And I can shoot J right?"
GM: "Sure"
Player A: "And I could shoot the vase to the right of J correct?"
GM: " Well I suppose so."
Player A; "But I can't shoot the deathbringing adept to the left of J?"
GM: "That would be right out."
Player A: "Could I shoot the tree the adept is standing in front of?"
GM: "Uh, you'd be at -6 for the tree having full cover from the guy. And no I won't let you hit him that way."
Player A: *facepalms*
Now at first glance someone might say "Well you should just lump all the NPCs together" but then whats the point of the J bringing along the combat reflexed adept? What happens if it's the players drawing on the J and his guys? Do the prime runners stand around looking stupid like the mooks?
By the way this isn't a problem GMs of other systems have as surprise rules tend to be very different. Some you have to make a roll or lose actions on the first round, some just give a free round if you don't know about the assailants and some give an int mod.
I want to say that SR4 is unique in how it does it.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Player A: " And I know that they're all trying to attack me right" |
This is the part that's the surprise. The PC does not know the adept is there to attack the PC, therefore not unreasonable.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) | ||
This is the part that's the surprise. The PC does not know the adept is there to attack the PC, therefore not unreasonable. |
I was just going to point that out...
That is a GM problem...if he is describing the scene before the surprise, then he has done the players an injustice...part of the surprise is what you see and what you don't, so a GM has to take that into account as well.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) | ||
This is the part that's the surprise. The PC does not know the adept is there to attack the PC, therefore not unreasonable. |
Actually if you guys read what sunnyside posted again you'll see that it is a stupid situation.
I didn't reference an adept but sunnyside did. In his scenario there is an adept standing right next to J. Not hidden or anything. So the GM is correct in describing said adept to the PC before rolling surprise.
The surprise is the J's people that are visible pulling their guns, not just the hidden ones jumping out of hiding. In D&D it is almost always the case where it is one group jumping out at another group. Surprise in SR is different because sometimes you know the other group is there but they do something UNEXPECTED.
Everything was going okay for the runners, no sign of trouble. Suddenly, without provocation, the J's men jump them. There is a chance for surprise.
Street sam PC rolls highest intiative but adept gets higher surprise roll. Now street sam can start shooting but only at anything BUT the adept. Adept is clearly biggest threat but sam CAN'T shoot because of this RULE. It makes no sense in real life.
That's what's we are saying is wrong. It is not a problem on the part of the GM at all (excepting that sunnyside changed the description a bit).
If the Adept is considered a viable target to act against, and you do not have surprise against them, then the Adept gets to act first, have a full defense, can use Edge etc. The target that is surprised does not get the full set of options.
The situation is you have two targets, both known, and one you have suprise against and one you don't, I think you can go ahead and shoot whichever one you want, but I suspect the one you have surprise against will be far easier to hit, players choice.
The situation is you have two targets, both known, and one you have suprise against and one you don't, I think you can go ahead and shoot whichever one you want, but I suspect the one you have surprise against will be far easier to hit, players choice.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| If the Adept is considered a viable target to act against, and you do not have surprise against them, then the Adept gets to act first, have a full defense, can use Edge etc. The target that is surprised does not get the full set of options. The situation is you have two targets, both known, and one you have suprise against and one you don't, I think you can go ahead and shoot whichever one you want, but I suspect the one you have surprise against will be far easier to hit, players choice. |
Yes what you just said is correct but that is not the way it is written.
The Sam gets to go first because he has higher initiative but because he got less surprise hits than the adept he cannot act against the adept. No matter how much the player wants to.
When your two choices are a surprised J or a non-surprised Adept I would still as a player want to shoot at the Adept even though it may be harder to hit him. This is because he is a bigger threat to my life than J. But the rules won't let me.
That's why I use the surprise roll as intitiative for 1 action pass for everyone and then roll initiative normally afterwards.
Cheops has the interpritation right.
The reason I had a sammy and an adept is because, due to the selection of powers and cyberware, a match up like that will very frequently result in the sammy getting to go first but the adept having surprise.
Cheops "use # of hits as initiative order on the first pass" solution is easy and elegant but initiative solutions remove the possibility of lost actions and I'm not sure I like that. However I do like it better than the base SR4 system.
*Edit: I forgot you could always just hold your action until the next initiative pass and thusly get the full number of actions against whoever you want. So it really is just kind of a initiative reordering, with funky weird annoying complications.
The reason I had a sammy and an adept is because, due to the selection of powers and cyberware, a match up like that will very frequently result in the sammy getting to go first but the adept having surprise.
Cheops "use # of hits as initiative order on the first pass" solution is easy and elegant but initiative solutions remove the possibility of lost actions and I'm not sure I like that. However I do like it better than the base SR4 system.
*Edit: I forgot you could always just hold your action until the next initiative pass and thusly get the full number of actions against whoever you want. So it really is just kind of a initiative reordering, with funky weird annoying complications.
I`ll just go old-school on you and suggest to resolve matters by deciding what happens. Whats being a demi-good (GM) good for if you donīt get to do what you want?
Everyone whos not a PC is yours. Now only the players are rolling surprise. Decide on a threshold depending on the situation, done.
But thats quite different from RAW - hard surprise rules are hard to do IMO.
Everyone whos not a PC is yours. Now only the players are rolling surprise. Decide on a threshold depending on the situation, done.
But thats quite different from RAW - hard surprise rules are hard to do IMO.
GM does have final say on all rules in its game.
However, whats the point of logging onto Dumpshock with that sort of argument?
However, whats the point of logging onto Dumpshock with that sort of argument?
Back to the example...if the J's men unexpectedly jump the runners, and the adept has the highest surprise roll, what the RAW states is the runners can't react to the adept's suprise action (in this case, pulling out a gun). I don't believe RAW states you can't do anything to the adept, just that you can't react to his actions during surprise.
So, if the runners viewed the adept as a threat coming in (which makes no sense to me, as you have a sammy and up to this point, no one was threatening the runners), and they were going to open fire on him anyways, I don't see suprise restricting the runners from shooting the adept.
I would question the runners role-playing in that encounter, but I could see them having a valid argument that they went in viewing the adept as a threat and if things went down, would start shooting him...It just seems in this situation, before suprise, everyone was fairly neutral, and the surprise aspect is that no one saw the adept pull the gun (because he rolled highest on surprise). The adept still has surprise though, which means he can shoot at any of the runners without them getting a reaction roll...
I still think the fact remains that in this single IP, which is fractions of a second, it is not unreasonable, seeing the runners are completely off-guard (i.e. lower suprise rolls) that they cannot shoot at the adept this IP, but I could see allowing it if the players really gave that much flak.
So, if the runners viewed the adept as a threat coming in (which makes no sense to me, as you have a sammy and up to this point, no one was threatening the runners), and they were going to open fire on him anyways, I don't see suprise restricting the runners from shooting the adept.
I would question the runners role-playing in that encounter, but I could see them having a valid argument that they went in viewing the adept as a threat and if things went down, would start shooting him...It just seems in this situation, before suprise, everyone was fairly neutral, and the surprise aspect is that no one saw the adept pull the gun (because he rolled highest on surprise). The adept still has surprise though, which means he can shoot at any of the runners without them getting a reaction roll...
I still think the fact remains that in this single IP, which is fractions of a second, it is not unreasonable, seeing the runners are completely off-guard (i.e. lower suprise rolls) that they cannot shoot at the adept this IP, but I could see allowing it if the players really gave that much flak.
Personally I don't have any problems with the surprise rule. It's surprise, even though you may go into the situation with the thought, "Hey everyone shoot X if anything happens" it's simply a case of the Surprise set of actions being exactly that, a surprise. Ever drop or knock over something? No matter how much you might want to catch or react to it, could you?
The question might be in looking at whether or not it's a surprise situation in the first place. If you don't think it's a surprise situation, then don't use Surprise phase and simply resort to initiative order.
The question might be in looking at whether or not it's a surprise situation in the first place. If you don't think it's a surprise situation, then don't use Surprise phase and simply resort to initiative order.
The reason why SR needs easy to use surprise rolls is because of the same reason why I force my players to make so many.
A good percentage of the runners have VASTLY enhanced reactions. For every 1 action a mundane takes the Street Sam is taking 3!
How about this:
Bunch of Yaks sitting in a hotel room talking to a data courier. Yak bodyguards expect that courier might do something or someone might kick down the door. Wired assassins on the other side of the door want to kill the courier and know that as soon as they kick down the door they will be shot.
Both sides are reasonably prepared for what is about to happen. Yaks aren't wired so their Initiative is probably something like 4/1. Assassins are (post FAQ) 7/3. There is no way that the Yaks are going to be able to react fast enough to stop the wired assassins even though they are ready and waiting for them. The assassins kick in the door and start shooting.
This situation is similar to the one I described. The player of the street sam is dumb if he thinks the Adept is less a threat than the J. But even with the surprise the Sam still has a VERY good chance of going first in initiative. In my way of thinking that means that:
J passes word over commlink to start shooting. Adept is fastest of the J's men so he twitches his hand towards his holster. Street sam sees his pupils dilate and his hand start to move. Is surprised by it but his enhanced reactions, senses, and reflexes enables him to basically override his momentary flat-footedness and whip out his gun. He wins initiative and shoots first. But for some reason his wired reflexes automatically point his gun at J?!?
(N.B. I play with the old fluff rule that if you have your wires on you get very twitchy whether you want to or not. I have had players inadvertently blow away bystanders because they surprised them)
A good percentage of the runners have VASTLY enhanced reactions. For every 1 action a mundane takes the Street Sam is taking 3!
How about this:
Bunch of Yaks sitting in a hotel room talking to a data courier. Yak bodyguards expect that courier might do something or someone might kick down the door. Wired assassins on the other side of the door want to kill the courier and know that as soon as they kick down the door they will be shot.
Both sides are reasonably prepared for what is about to happen. Yaks aren't wired so their Initiative is probably something like 4/1. Assassins are (post FAQ) 7/3. There is no way that the Yaks are going to be able to react fast enough to stop the wired assassins even though they are ready and waiting for them. The assassins kick in the door and start shooting.
This situation is similar to the one I described. The player of the street sam is dumb if he thinks the Adept is less a threat than the J. But even with the surprise the Sam still has a VERY good chance of going first in initiative. In my way of thinking that means that:
J passes word over commlink to start shooting. Adept is fastest of the J's men so he twitches his hand towards his holster. Street sam sees his pupils dilate and his hand start to move. Is surprised by it but his enhanced reactions, senses, and reflexes enables him to basically override his momentary flat-footedness and whip out his gun. He wins initiative and shoots first. But for some reason his wired reflexes automatically point his gun at J?!?
(N.B. I play with the old fluff rule that if you have your wires on you get very twitchy whether you want to or not. I have had players inadvertently blow away bystanders because they surprised them)
If the Yaks know something is coming and the wired assassins are completely ready to kick in the door and know what is on the other side...why are you rolling surprise?
As for your example, when the assassins kick in the door, who knows what will be on the other side? That is why there is surprise rolled, no matter how great your wired reflexes are, you have a chance to be surprised.
In your example, are you saying you don't like the fact the Yaks may lose surprise because of their inherently lower initiative compared to the assassins?
I guess the point is, you know the game mechanic, if you want opponents or your player that is good in surprise, increase your initiative...I'm not sure what all the houserules people are wanting to use for surprise, but the same issue is going to come up there, some people will be better at surprise than others...
As for your example, when the assassins kick in the door, who knows what will be on the other side? That is why there is surprise rolled, no matter how great your wired reflexes are, you have a chance to be surprised.
In your example, are you saying you don't like the fact the Yaks may lose surprise because of their inherently lower initiative compared to the assassins?
I guess the point is, you know the game mechanic, if you want opponents or your player that is good in surprise, increase your initiative...I'm not sure what all the houserules people are wanting to use for surprise, but the same issue is going to come up there, some people will be better at surprise than others...
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| Ever drop or knock over something? No matter how much you might want to catch or react to it, could you? |
See the fundamental problem I and others have is that the "bumping a vase" equivanlent of the rules as written would have it so you knock over a vase and then you can't catch the vase, but you could pick up and drink your cup of coffee while the vase wobbles and then falls off the stand.
Additionally you couldn't ask your friend to catch the vase because you beat their surprise roll, so he can't hear/react to what you say. However he CAN listen or react if your mom said something because, dispite her going first, he beat her surprise roll.
Are you seeing where this is getting weird? And the weird communication thing applies even when you clump all the NPCs together.
On that note for the GMs who like the surprise rules as written would you allow players reduce their successes so they can't talk to people.
Something like.
GM: "Suddenly Ares guards burst into the room!"
PlayerA wins initiative and rolls a whopping 8 successes on surprise.
Player A: "I tell everybody that we're working together and the password is "veranda" "
GM: "Uh, they can't hear you. You surprised them"
Player A: "I'm speaking though right"
GM: "Yeah but they're surprised, they can't hear you"
Player A: "Can I pretend like I didn't roll any successes on my surprise roll so they CAN hear me"
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| GM: "Suddenly Ares guards burst into the room!" PlayerA wins initiative and rolls a whopping 8 successes on surprise. |
If it's not a Surprise situation don't use the Surpise rules.
How do you know it's not time to use the Surprise Rules, when the results are not what you want.
Up to you to decide if the situation merits using the Surprise Rules.
Busting through a door != Surpise.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) | ||
If it's not a Surprise situation don't use the Surpise rules. How do you know it's not time to use the Surprise Rules, when the results are not what you want. Up to you to decide if the situation merits using the Surprise Rules. Busting through a door != Surpise. |
Again 'though, sunnyside was pointing out the inherent non-sensicalness of the rules AS WRITTEN. His original post was asking for ways to deal with this.
His recent example is definitely a surprise situation. What is flawed about it is that the PC is speaking but the guards ARE NOT ALLOWED TO REACT TO HIS TALKING.
While in RL I am aware that armed soldiers bursting into a Bagdhad home might not always be able to react to the Iraqi civilians shouting that they surrender in RL they at least have the opportunity, when it is their turn to react, to listen to what is being said and not shoot.
The Ares guards don't even get a chance to listen because they were surprise by the guy shouting Veranda!
If applying the Surprise Rules results in a situation that do not make sense to the GM and players, then the Surprise Rule should not apply.
There is nothing that stops you from describing a surprising situation in which the Surprise Rule does not need to apply.
That is entirely your choice in whether or not to use it.
At some point in the game someone is deciding whether or not a particular rule is applied. It's not like the shadowrun game police are going to come over .. surprise surprise... jump out of the shadows and smack you for deciding to not use the Surprise Rule.
The Surprise Rule is simply a game mechanic which you need to decide whether or not to use.
It's your choice, use it.
There is nothing that stops you from describing a surprising situation in which the Surprise Rule does not need to apply.
That is entirely your choice in whether or not to use it.
At some point in the game someone is deciding whether or not a particular rule is applied. It's not like the shadowrun game police are going to come over .. surprise surprise... jump out of the shadows and smack you for deciding to not use the Surprise Rule.
The Surprise Rule is simply a game mechanic which you need to decide whether or not to use.
It's your choice, use it.
Do you have the same situation when rolling perception??? I mean, its really the same situation...someone walks out of an alley a block away, and say the GM asks for perception rolls. Two people (out of four in the group) make it and the other two don't...so, two notice it (and therefore can react) and two don't (and can't react).
And remember, suprise bonuses/penalties occur only in IP 1...that is 3/4's of a second that you are being penalized and not able to react to someone with a higher suprise roll. How much are you going to be able to say in that time? How long is it going to take that vase to wobble and fall?
I back up what DireRadiant is saying...if using surprise is going to cause a lot of problems for the situation, then don't roll surprise.
And there are many ways to describe and validate why guards can't "react" to what someone is yelling or doing for 3/4's of a second...adrenaline, expecting one thing and some complete different scenario being the case, etc...
I know in RL I hear people say something but it doesn't immediately click, but once I have a second to gain my composure, I know what they said...the same situation applies here, IMO.
And remember, suprise bonuses/penalties occur only in IP 1...that is 3/4's of a second that you are being penalized and not able to react to someone with a higher suprise roll. How much are you going to be able to say in that time? How long is it going to take that vase to wobble and fall?
I back up what DireRadiant is saying...if using surprise is going to cause a lot of problems for the situation, then don't roll surprise.
And there are many ways to describe and validate why guards can't "react" to what someone is yelling or doing for 3/4's of a second...adrenaline, expecting one thing and some complete different scenario being the case, etc...
I know in RL I hear people say something but it doesn't immediately click, but once I have a second to gain my composure, I know what they said...the same situation applies here, IMO.
@direradient Um the point of this thread was to bend/rewrite the rules. I don't like the idea of there never being surprise. Especially since it's mentioned in the rules for one of the most popular adept powers, and since something different should happen in ambush situations.
I like the idea of surprise just not how it's handled and find it almost always produces bizzare results.
@deek The perception rules make sense. It makes sense that some people could see something and other people couldn't.
Surprise in principle also makes sense, something happens suddenly and it takes a few seconds (for someone not wired) before your brain really kicks in.
The problem is that as written unless you throw out a bunch of ones you can act normally, just only against a strange subset of targets.
And while I also could see someone not catching what someone said I don't see why you should be able to hear and process what is being said by the guy on your left but not the guy on your right just because the guy on the right rolled better on the surprise roll.
Also thinking more on it even clumping the NPCs produces weird results as the NPC can probably all shoot somebody just not other members of the team. And it's not that they can't perceive them.
I like the idea of surprise just not how it's handled and find it almost always produces bizzare results.
@deek The perception rules make sense. It makes sense that some people could see something and other people couldn't.
Surprise in principle also makes sense, something happens suddenly and it takes a few seconds (for someone not wired) before your brain really kicks in.
The problem is that as written unless you throw out a bunch of ones you can act normally, just only against a strange subset of targets.
And while I also could see someone not catching what someone said I don't see why you should be able to hear and process what is being said by the guy on your left but not the guy on your right just because the guy on the right rolled better on the surprise roll.
Also thinking more on it even clumping the NPCs produces weird results as the NPC can probably all shoot somebody just not other members of the team. And it's not that they can't perceive them.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 8 2007, 07:23 PM) |
| The Surprise Rule is simply a game mechanic which you need to decide whether or not to use. It's your choice, use it. |
Yeah...and I'm not gonna.
Was mildly offended that because I found the rule illogical deek took that to imply anyone who finds the rule illogical is doing so because they are a poor GM.
Plus as sunnyside said: point of the thread was to try and finds ways, amongst people who don't like the surprise rules as written, to change them.
| QUOTE (Cheops) | ||
Yeah...and I'm not gonna. Was mildly offended that because I found the rule illogical deek took that to imply anyone who finds the rule illogical is doing so because they are a poor GM. Plus as sunnyside said: point of the thread was to try and finds ways, amongst people who don't like the surprise rules as written, to change them. |
I apologize if I came across as implying one was a poor GM because they felt a rule was illogical or didn't like it. I just think that a lot of the quirkyness can be described out/validated by a GM in each particular situation. While I don't use surprise every single session, I have used it a moderate amount and each time there were some party members able to react to NPCs and/or PCs and others, not. No one has complained, I find the mechanic reasonable, just different due to the nature of surprise...
In fact, In our last session, we had a surprise situation, where one PC had high roll with surprise, 2 PCs came next, the NPCs as a group came next and finally a single PC. The first had detonated a pair of grenades as his action, going first, no one was allowed to react to that...so, one of the PCs up next, couldn't turn around and take cover, as he was already running in that direction so had to continue, but could take actions against the rest of the NPCs.
When it got to the NPCs, they only ended up noticing the one, granted, that PC wasn't in line of sight, so they really weren't able to do anything but move out of the van as they were planning...they couldn't cover back up in the van because of the grenades and they couldn't return fire on the other two PCs that were above them, even though they started firing at the NPCs.
Personally, I find some of the rules illogical and when I do, I houserule, mostly from other posters on DSF. But when I find things in RAW I do agree with and support, I try to make a case against changing it...and for surprise, I think it is viable and solid as written...I understand the point of this thread, to try changing RAW for playing surprise, but as I have found, if the "other" viewpoint isn't expressed, then sometimes you miss out on filling all holes in the houserule being worked on...
But were all the PCs and NPCs visible to one another when this whole sequence started?
Would this work?
Apply the +6 (ambush) and +3 (seen 'em) bonuses to initiative. Then (only on the surprise round) announce actions from lowest to highest and resolve from highest to lowest. That way the players would say things like, "My character yells 'Duck!'" and only less surprised characters would be able to react to that. You could also stipulate that characters could only act against/react to characters who had already had their actions announced.
I think I'd like to try this. I'll let you know how it works if I ever get to use it. (No current game.
)
Apply the +6 (ambush) and +3 (seen 'em) bonuses to initiative. Then (only on the surprise round) announce actions from lowest to highest and resolve from highest to lowest. That way the players would say things like, "My character yells 'Duck!'" and only less surprised characters would be able to react to that. You could also stipulate that characters could only act against/react to characters who had already had their actions announced.
I think I'd like to try this. I'll let you know how it works if I ever get to use it. (No current game.
)
hmm...makes the first pass take a little longer but not a bad way to do it.
Why can the sam shoot the J but not the adept when he goes first? Simple, precisely because he was surprised!
Teammate A: Why did you shoot the J instead of the adept?
Sam: I don't know. He surprised me.
Teammate A: But he was right there.
Sam: Exactly the point. If he didn't surprise me, I would have shot him instead. But I was surprised by him.
Teammate A: But you went first!
Sam: Goddamnit, he caught me by surprise, he might have been slower than me, but he still caught me by surprise. I didn't expect him to do what he did or I wouldn't have been surprised by him!
Teammate A: Why did you shoot the J instead of the adept?
Sam: I don't know. He surprised me.
Teammate A: But he was right there.
Sam: Exactly the point. If he didn't surprise me, I would have shot him instead. But I was surprised by him.
Teammate A: But you went first!
Sam: Goddamnit, he caught me by surprise, he might have been slower than me, but he still caught me by surprise. I didn't expect him to do what he did or I wouldn't have been surprised by him!
I think toturi said it best...
It's only weird if you don't try to make it fit...
Suprised Ares guards: Standing there stunned until their brains click over, it's not that they didn't hear "Veranda' and all that, it's that they were so Jazzed they just did whatever it was their reptile brains were already keyed to do until their higher brain functions can shout it down...
Then there was the one with the npc's piling out of the van. The running PC didn't see the grenade in time to change what he was doing, the guards were so caught up in'gogogogogo' that all they could do was pile out and look for targets... none of them were where they were supposed to be... Oh sure, one guy probably saw the grenade roll into the van as they closed the door. Last words were 'Oh... um... shit!"
Just 'cause all that takes 15 minutes at teh table doesn't mean it takes 15 minutes to the characters. And if your players start getting bitchy about their restricted choices, start giving them a maximum of 30 seconds to declare and roll their action. You'll get a few stupid moves from them from time to time, but that just adds to the versimilatude of combat....
It's only weird if you don't try to make it fit...
Suprised Ares guards: Standing there stunned until their brains click over, it's not that they didn't hear "Veranda' and all that, it's that they were so Jazzed they just did whatever it was their reptile brains were already keyed to do until their higher brain functions can shout it down...
Then there was the one with the npc's piling out of the van. The running PC didn't see the grenade in time to change what he was doing, the guards were so caught up in'gogogogogo' that all they could do was pile out and look for targets... none of them were where they were supposed to be... Oh sure, one guy probably saw the grenade roll into the van as they closed the door. Last words were 'Oh... um... shit!"
Just 'cause all that takes 15 minutes at teh table doesn't mean it takes 15 minutes to the characters. And if your players start getting bitchy about their restricted choices, start giving them a maximum of 30 seconds to declare and roll their action. You'll get a few stupid moves from them from time to time, but that just adds to the versimilatude of combat....
That's the problem 'though...it takes 15 minutes at the table. I'd rather have a clean system that takes 3 minutes at the table so that my game doesn't bog down in rules and arguments.
If I wanted that I'd switch back to SR3.
If I wanted that I'd switch back to SR3.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| That's the problem 'though...it takes 15 minutes at the table. I'd rather have a clean system that takes 3 minutes at the table so that my game doesn't bog down in rules and arguments. If I wanted that I'd switch back to SR3. |
Based on my experience, once initiative is rolled, you're going to be in combat a lot more than three minutes, let alone fifteen. Honestly, in the four hour sessions I run, I can only plan on one big "fight" per session, because they take a long time to resolve.
Four PCs vs. four NPCs, while maybe not lasting more than 2 combat turns (6 seconds of game time), normally lasts at least an hour in real time...now, my players enjoy this time, as they are strategizing, moving, shooting, etc, but that is quite a long time. Although, when I compare it to other RPGs, its not that much longer, at least in the battles our groups have encountered.
I'd like to see anyone give an example of a group encounter, with relative challenge, that only takes 3 minutes to resolve...I just don't think it is going to happen...
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I'd like to see anyone give an example of a group encounter, with relative challenge, that only takes 3 minutes to resolve...I just don't think it is going to happen... |
Sure. Two teams are both armed with equally large bombs, and are equally suicidal. Both teams thus offer each other a relatively comparable level of challenge.
Roll initiative.
Roll body.
Die.
You asked for it.
| QUOTE (deek) | ||
Based on my experience, once initiative is rolled, you're going to be in combat a lot more than three minutes, let alone fifteen. Honestly, in the four hour sessions I run, I can only plan on one big "fight" per session, because they take a long time to resolve. Four PCs vs. four NPCs, while maybe not lasting more than 2 combat turns (6 seconds of game time), normally lasts at least an hour in real time...now, my players enjoy this time, as they are strategizing, moving, shooting, etc, but that is quite a long time. Although, when I compare it to other RPGs, its not that much longer, at least in the battles our groups have encountered. I'd like to see anyone give an example of a group encounter, with relative challenge, that only takes 3 minutes to resolve...I just don't think it is going to happen... |
Misunderstanding. I thought you mean that that one turn took 15 minutes they way you wrote it. Didn't realize you meant the entire fight including after the grenade went off.
Generally I don't like running combat in SR. That's why I love the fact that sams can be good hackers now -- they do more than just sit in the van until the shit hits the fan. Almost every time there's been combat it eventually leads to the end of at least several characters if not TPK.
@moon-hawk
Yes, I suppose I did ask for that:)
@Cheops
Yeah, I may not have been as clear as I should have...honestly, the "weird mechanic", IMO, is that after rolling surprise and resolving, everyone has to roll initiative again for IP 2.
My players know going into a suprise pass, that depending on how they roll, they may not be able to interact/react to some people, NPCs and PCs. They seem to be fine with that, as surprise isn't something that comes up every session. And normally, it just means that a PC or two is going to get a chance to have a free hit on an opponent...and to me, that's not all that bad.
In my session example with the grenade, the grenades were actually placed a bit too far away and the van's armor handled the blast, causing no damage. There was only one PC that ended up getting to use his surprise benefit, and used it to auto-fire into the back of the van, severely injuring 3 of the 4 occupants...and while the NPCs still ran out and took cover ahead of them, they weren't able to return fire on anyone...I think it played out pretty well.
The whole combat sequence lasted about an hour (of realtime) as they exchanged shots for 6 or 7 IPs. Eventually, only one NPC was standing and ran away, keeping out of LOS for a while. He ended up getting gunned down by pursuing PCs as he tried to vault a fence.
And I agree, opening up matrix activity to everyone is a lot more fun for the group. But I do enjoy running combat...now that we have done it a bunch, everything sorta just flows and no one is caught having to look much up. There are a ton of dice to roll, but I think we got it down to where it all feels pretty natural now.
Yes, I suppose I did ask for that:)
@Cheops
Yeah, I may not have been as clear as I should have...honestly, the "weird mechanic", IMO, is that after rolling surprise and resolving, everyone has to roll initiative again for IP 2.
My players know going into a suprise pass, that depending on how they roll, they may not be able to interact/react to some people, NPCs and PCs. They seem to be fine with that, as surprise isn't something that comes up every session. And normally, it just means that a PC or two is going to get a chance to have a free hit on an opponent...and to me, that's not all that bad.
In my session example with the grenade, the grenades were actually placed a bit too far away and the van's armor handled the blast, causing no damage. There was only one PC that ended up getting to use his surprise benefit, and used it to auto-fire into the back of the van, severely injuring 3 of the 4 occupants...and while the NPCs still ran out and took cover ahead of them, they weren't able to return fire on anyone...I think it played out pretty well.
The whole combat sequence lasted about an hour (of realtime) as they exchanged shots for 6 or 7 IPs. Eventually, only one NPC was standing and ran away, keeping out of LOS for a while. He ended up getting gunned down by pursuing PCs as he tried to vault a fence.
And I agree, opening up matrix activity to everyone is a lot more fun for the group. But I do enjoy running combat...now that we have done it a bunch, everything sorta just flows and no one is caught having to look much up. There are a ton of dice to roll, but I think we got it down to where it all feels pretty natural now.
Off topic but I insist during chargen that all characters be fuctional
1. In combat
2. On a run, out of combat (infiltrate, hack, electronic(maglock), etc)
3. During the "legwork" phase (ettiquete, range of contacts, hack/computer)
The reason is that I find if someone can't interact with a phase they occasionally get left out and even worse they (sometimes fairly obviously) sabatoge the other phases (especially if you have people who can only fight).
More on topic there seem to be a number of camps on whether they like the screwy SR4 surprise rules (which at least capture the chaos of surprise).
However it sounds like many of you rarely use suprise. However in my experience it should come up fairly often as written because it applies to ambush scenarios and walking in to find someone you didn't expect.
1. In combat
2. On a run, out of combat (infiltrate, hack, electronic(maglock), etc)
3. During the "legwork" phase (ettiquete, range of contacts, hack/computer)
The reason is that I find if someone can't interact with a phase they occasionally get left out and even worse they (sometimes fairly obviously) sabatoge the other phases (especially if you have people who can only fight).
More on topic there seem to be a number of camps on whether they like the screwy SR4 surprise rules (which at least capture the chaos of surprise).
However it sounds like many of you rarely use suprise. However in my experience it should come up fairly often as written because it applies to ambush scenarios and walking in to find someone you didn't expect.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| However it sounds like many of you rarely use suprise. However in my experience it should come up fairly often as written because it applies to ambush scenarios and walking in to find someone you didn't expect. |
Really? Not with 20+ Perception dice. You can impose Blind/Total Darkness modifiers together at Extreme range and a well-build Perception adept can still buy the 4 successes. Which in my opinion as a GM is a pain in the ass, when I can't set up ambushes or surprise my PCs. Which brings me to my next point, some SRMs have inescapable ambushes, which really torques off some of my players.
@toturi
Don't think there is always a way for perception to come into play to see the ambush ahead of time.
Van, parked on side of the road, tinted/mirrored windows. As the PCs go by, the ambushers in the van open fire thru the windows, then speed off. Can also have a second group in a building that exit and shoot the PCs in the back, while they are trying to get shots off at the van.
There are ways that make it almost impossible to detect the ambush. If over used, then the Players will rightfully get irritated. But used in moderation, tend to keep the players on their toes.
Don't think there is always a way for perception to come into play to see the ambush ahead of time.
Van, parked on side of the road, tinted/mirrored windows. As the PCs go by, the ambushers in the van open fire thru the windows, then speed off. Can also have a second group in a building that exit and shoot the PCs in the back, while they are trying to get shots off at the van.
There are ways that make it almost impossible to detect the ambush. If over used, then the Players will rightfully get irritated. But used in moderation, tend to keep the players on their toes.
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