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Hagarzen
Greeting all,

I just thought of a few things that I feel are not explained or just stupid in SR.

-who puts out fires? police and amblances have been replaced but firemen are not explained.

-why do SR artist show runners sneaking into places smoking cigarettes? not very sneaky if you asked me, smoke detectors will give you away.

Those are all I can think off now since I'm at work, I'll add as they come to me.
Konsaki
1) Automated drones and fire suppresion systems

2) Artistic license
lorechaser
1) Why would they be put out?

2) Everyone took Addiction (Nicotine)
djinni
QUOTE (Hagarzen)
-why do SR artist show runners sneaking into places smoking cigarettes? not very sneaky if you asked me, smoke detectors will give you away.

smoke detectors are gauged to not go off from cigarette smoke
cristomeyers
Yeah but the cig shines like a beacon in the dark, might as well put up a neon sign saying "Runners right here".
Hagarzen
So now there are (will be ) smart detectors that can tell the difference what kind of smoke it detects!
cetiah
Hagarzen, there's not nearly enough oxygen in the atmosphere to support an oxygen-consuming non-magical fire unless you had a blowtorch or something with an oxygen-based fuel source. Silly. "Wildfires" and burning buildings are just stories told to scare small children who are too old to believe in shadowrunners anymore. smile.gif

Someone's been telling you some pretty tall tales. "Fire Fighters." Right. Turn off the simsense and read a datafile once in awhile. That stuff will just rot your brain.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (cristomeyers)
Yeah but the cig shines like a beacon in the dark, might as well put up a neon sign saying "Runners right here".

...that's why ya go smokeless pardner...
cetiah
QUOTE (Hagarzen @ Feb 8 2007, 04:31 PM)
So now there are (will be ) smart detectors that can tell the difference what kind of smoke it detects!

Oh, yes. These detectors are everywhere! But they're not for tracking the existance of cigarette smoke. That's pretty much a constant. Hell, their absence will trigger an alarm. "What do you mean there's 0.3 units less cigarette smoke in Brown-14? Frank's supposed to be on patrol there."

Yeah, it's not the existance of smoke these sensors measure, but what amount, and more importantly, what brand. Very important. Critical.
cristomeyers
QUOTE
who puts out fires? police and amblances have been replaced but firemen are not explained.


Planning ahead, Cross? She hasn't set anyone on fire yet. wink.gif

Anyway, the fire depts got the same treatment as police, privitization. I know one of the sourcebooks actually lists who's in charge of what, including FD's. I'm pretty sure it's Bug City or Runner Havens, but I can't be positive (and until the wife gets off of her Civ 3 phase, I won't be able to get on the computer to find out.)

QUOTE
...that's why ya go smokeless pardner...


Heh, Marlboro Red, now in smokeless! For the runner that just can't resist a good smoke! -Phillip Morris' last ad campaign before being bought by Aztecnology
FlakJacket
According to Runner Havens the fire department was privatised just like the police were and is currently being operated by Franklin Associates.
sunnyside
On the note of artistic licence it was nearly traditional for a while to include artwork of things you couldn't actually get with the rules.

Ahhh the memories of adept players dreams being shattered when that cool energy bolt throwing bow on the cover not being described in the rules.
Hagarzen
I'll just get a halon tank for little miss firestarter.

Halon does a body good, by killing it and the fire!
cetiah
QUOTE (sunnyside)
Ahhh the memories of adept players dreams being shattered when that cool energy bolt throwing bow on the cover not being described in the rules.

That drove me freakin' crazy!!!!!!!!!!
FlakJacket
Having a look at New Seattle it gives you a bit more information on them than just Runner Havens name only. Seems they were originally an insurance company that saw the profit potential in privatised services, buying vehicles and equipment and starting their own firefighting and rescue services. Their selling point which they advertised heavily was that they could both insure your home and then also put out the fire. Turned into a major success and easily bid for the Metroplex fire department contract. Rumour has it they also prioritise calls from sites that they've insured, well their insurance certainly suggests that, but no-one's been able to catch them at it.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (cetiah)
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Feb 8 2007, 04:58 PM)
Ahhh the memories of adept players dreams being shattered when that cool energy bolt throwing bow on the cover not being described in the rules.

That drove me freakin' crazy!!!!!!!!!!

I figured it was a specific spell focus for powerbolt, or something similar.
cetiah
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (cetiah @ Feb 8 2007, 05:16 PM)
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Feb 8 2007, 04:58 PM)
Ahhh the memories of adept players dreams being shattered when that cool energy bolt throwing bow on the cover not being described in the rules.

That drove me freakin' crazy!!!!!!!!!!

I figured it was a specific spell focus for powerbolt, or something similar.

If only I had you around when I was trying to learn Shadowrun. I might have actually *liked* SR2.
FlakJacket
What's wrong with a good phsyical magician? smile.gif
Butterblume
Like Terry Pratchett put it, it's not a good idea to to pay a private company for the number of fires they put out biggrin.gif.

eidolon
QUOTE (Hagarzen)
Greeting all,

I just thought of a few things that I feel are not explained or just stupid in SR.

-who puts out fires? police and amblances have been replaced but firemen are not explained.

-why do SR artist show runners sneaking into places smoking cigarettes? not very sneaky if you asked me, smoke detectors will give you away.

Those are all I can think off now since I'm at work, I'll add as they come to me.

QUOTE (Hagarzen)
-who puts out fires? police and amblances have been replaced but firemen are not explained.


There comes a point where you just can't or don't want to spend any more time and book space describing every little detail. The reason the cops would receive attention in a game like SR is that they pose a direct threat (or possible threat) to the main characters of the game: criminals. Firemen, while quite obviously still a necessity in the game world, aren't something that is necessary to the flow of most games. Thus, it's more logical to spend those pages on Lone Star® and KE® than it is to spend them on FireOut™ and Douse-a-Flame®.

Now, in a world as extensive and book-happy as SR, you might assume that they eventually get mentioned, and I agree that it would be cool. But as a rule, they just aren't something that "matters".

QUOTE (Hagarzen)
-why do SR artist show runners sneaking into places smoking cigarettes? not very sneaky if you asked me, smoke detectors will give you away.


Well, there's reality and there's art. There's reality and there's feel. It's the same thing as every runner wearing a Securetech Long Coat, you know?

But yeah, sound and light discipline. Practice them. wink.gif
Hagarzen
okay for the knowledge impaired what does SOTA mean ??

Best
Hagarzen
Mistwalker
State of the art (SOTA)
cetiah
QUOTE (Hagarzen @ Feb 9 2007, 06:01 PM)
okay for the knowledge impaired what does SOTA mean ??

Best
Hagarzen

SOTA means State Of The Art.
It refers to a principle that technology continues to advance to a certain "level", and technology must be maintained and improved to keep in line with SOTA.

Generally speaking, things are either SOTA or not SOTA. The baseline rules "as is" always assumes SOTA.

It is generally used as fluff, but occasional rules do pop up regarding SOTA in different areas of technology in different editions of Shadowrun, requiring people to upkeep their technology - usually by investing so much time or money to keep your stuff from degrading. (But it's not ACTUALLY degrading; it's just lagging behind the progress of everything else, and the rules/fluff is always using "everything else" as its baseline at any given moment. So this has the appearance that your technology actually gets worse.)
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (cetiah)
QUOTE (Hagarzen @ Feb 9 2007, 06:01 PM)
okay for the knowledge impaired what does SOTA mean ??

Best
Hagarzen

SOTA means State Of The Art.
It refers to a principle that technology continues to advance to a certain "level", and technology must be maintained and improved to keep in line with SOTA.

Generally speaking, things are either SOTA or not SOTA. The baseline rules "as is" always assumes SOTA.

It is generally used as fluff, but occasional rules do pop up regarding SOTA in different areas of technology in different editions of Shadowrun, requiring people to upkeep their technology - usually by investing so much time or money to keep your stuff from degrading. (But it's not ACTUALLY degrading; it's just lagging behind the progress of everything else, and the rules/fluff is always using "everything else" as its baseline at any given moment. So this has the appearance that your technology actually gets worse.)

Which immideately breakdown when you compare anything except opposed computer technology rolls.

Yes, I can see a person with non-SOTA getting a penalty in cybercombat with a SOTA person...


But consider that even now, USMC snipers will choose a 90-year-old bolt action rifle. It's ability to kill hasen't degraded, and it's damage shoulden't go down because it's old - it'll still put the hella hurtin' on the fools!

Does a doctor's ability to heal degrade if he hasen't upgraded his equipment in a year? No! His equipment's been properly maintained (assumedly), and he's still as good as ever at healing with that equipment!

It goes on and on...
Nikoli
However, the USMC useage of the M-1 Garand is an oddity and they probably upgraded the ammunition. Doctors undergo new training constantly, they are a perfect example of SOTA. If you aren't on top of the research on your every day tasks, you're probably out the door on your ass trying to find a crime boss in need of a saw bones
Glyph
I especially hated how SOTA affected wired reflexes, so that having non-SOTA wired reflexes made completely mundane opposition suddenly become faster compared to you.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Nikoli)
However, the USMC useage of the M-1 Garand is an oddity and they probably upgraded the ammunition. Doctors undergo new training constantly, they are a perfect example of SOTA. If you aren't on top of the research on your every day tasks, you're probably out the door on your ass trying to find a crime boss in need of a saw bones

Yes, they upgraded the ammunition - and as the new ammo becomes common, it'll cost no more than the old, and the net result is no need to spend extra money or time on it. It's ammo! You probably won't even NOTICE the differences, which mainly involve using less corrosive propellant!

And a doctor's ability to heal does not go down if his equipment hasen't upgraded.




And of course, Glyph's example of how a comlpetely mundane person would actually get faster than someone with Wired Reflexes that haven't gotten the latest firmware upgrade. It's stupid!
Nikoli
While their intrinsic ability to heal might not decrease, time has marched on and there are better techniques developed stemp vs. swan for example. One is fairly basic and routine, the other can kill the patient by accident if you nick the wrong spot. Both, at one time or another are considered normal techniques to use, however any docter performing swans when absolutely unnecessary won't be a doctor for long.
Sir_Psycho
I was sure that the fire departments were not privatized, but function like the Metroplex Guard. Anyway, They're apparently supposed to be good guys working hard for a low-paying, dangerous, thankless job.
Thain
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Feb 9 2007, 10:19 PM)
However, the USMC useage of the M-1 Garand is an oddity and they probably upgraded the ammunition.  Doctors undergo new training constantly, they are a perfect example of SOTA.  If you aren't on top of the research on your every day tasks, you're probably out the door on your ass trying to find a crime boss in need of a saw bones

Actually, both the U.S. Army's M24 Sniper Weapon System and U.S. Marine Corps' M40 sniper rifles are built from the Remington Model 700 rifle. Both fire the NATO's 7.62x51mm rifle cartridge, which is for-all-intents-that-matter-here identical to the .308 Winchester.

The M1 Garand, properly the "United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1" fires the venerable .30-06 Springfield. It is no longer is service with any branch of the military... although you will be given one while standing Sentry during USCG's Boot Camp. (Yes, they are loaded.)

The Navy, I'm told, still keeps Garands chambered in 7.62 mm aboard ship, my freind tells me they used some variant of the old WWII grenade launcher to launch lines between ships. Aparently as a sort of milsup grappling gun.

I dunno... I manned a fax machine.

EDIT:

Here's one thing that makes me go ummm in SR...

If you can start play with ¥250,000 (SR4) or ¥1,000,000 (SR1-3) in unspent wealth, why the heck do you turn to a life of petty crime?

I'd buy a nice, comfy, upper-middle class lifestyle and a above-average Fake SIN and take it easy. Watch some trid. Take the wife and kid on a vacation to see a tree. You know... not shoot people in the face for petty cash.
cetiah
QUOTE (Thain)
Here's one thing that makes me go ummm in SR...

If you can start play with ¥250,000 (SR4) or ¥1,000,000 (SR1-3) in unspent wealth, why the heck do you turn to a life of petty crime?

I'd buy a nice, comfy, upper-middle class lifestyle and a above-average Fake SIN and take it easy. Watch some trid. Take the wife and kid on a vacation to see a tree. You know... not shoot people in the face for petty cash.

Nice question! And one every newbie asks when playing, so very relavent!!!

I use the "Traveller" answer: All the money's borrowed. Pretty soon, someone's going to come to collect.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Thain)
[QUOTE=Nikoli,Feb 9 2007, 10:19 PM] <snipped coolness about the Garand>
If you can start play with ¥250,000 (SR4) or ¥1,000,000 (SR1-3) in unspent wealth, why the heck do you turn to a life of petty crime?

I'd buy a nice, comfy, upper-middle class lifestyle and a above-average Fake SIN and take it easy. Watch some trid. Take the wife and kid on a vacation to see a tree. You know... not shoot people in the face for petty cash.

Uhh, check again - you can't. Starting wealth for gear dosen't carryover on a 1:1 basis. I think it's something like divided by 100 - that's at most 2,500 (SR4) or 10K (SR3)
Pyritefoolsgold
Also, SOTA applies more for some things than for others.

Especially it should apply to software, and extra specially to hacker software and IC. The two are always in a constant bid to keep up with one another, and aren't really measured against anything else.

Now things like guns, armor, ect, they really won't work with SOTA, because while the SOTA baseline might move up, the "unarmed unarmored guy" baseline still doesn't. And while some technical and scientific skills degrade, simpler skills like "Shooting people" or "riding a motorcycle" or "flipping out like a ninja" don't

I think SOTA requirements should apply to software and comlinks, which would actually help balance the hacker against the technomancer, but not to much else.
ShadowDragon8685
"Flipping out like a Ninja" means throwing a tantrum that nobody notices, right?
Pyritefoolsgold
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
"Flipping out like a Ninja" means throwing a tantrum that nobody notices, right?

Supposing it was a tantrum that killed people, then I suppose yes.
NightmareX
QUOTE (cetiah)
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Feb 8 2007, 04:58 PM)
Ahhh the memories of adept players dreams being shattered when that cool energy bolt throwing bow on the cover not being described in the rules.

That drove me freakin' crazy!!!!!!!!!!

I almost hate to do this to you Cetaih, but here's one of my 3rd edition creations that never saw the light of play. Made it to give a power to those cool pics on the Companions and the cover of A Killing Glare. Probably broken as all hell as it's written wink.gif

Mana Weapon (1.5 points) – This power allows the adept to convert a weapon into a construct of pure mana and intersperse it into his aura, to be called back into existence whenever the adept chooses. The weapon can be of any non-firearm type, excluding crossbows, and can be melee or ranged. Note, however, that for bows, the bow and its arrow each count as a separate mana weapon. An adept can have any number of mana weapons, but each mana weapon created counts as a separate purchase of this power.

Mana weapons can be brought back into existence at any time, requiring only a Simple action and the slightest bit of concentration. Mana weapons appear as glowing, colored energy versions of the actual weapon (see the cover of the Shadowrun Companion 3rd Edition for a mana weapon arrow). The adept conjures his mana weapon by making a Magic (4) test, with a +4 modifier if the weapon was Dikoted, and plus the weapon’s Force rating if it was a weapon focus before becoming a mana weapon. Only a single success is required to bring the mana weapon into being. Mana weapons function in all respects as normal for their type, and mana weapon arrows still need a delivery system. Mana weapons cannot be wielded by other characters, becoming insubstantial if given to someone other than the adept. Mana weapons remain in existence as long as the adept wills it, save for projectiles, which dissipate on impact. When the mana weapon is dissipated, the adept must resist Drain, with the Drain Power being equal to the Power of the weapon at half the adept’s Strength (example – for a normal sword, the Power would be half the adept’s Strength +2) and the Drain Level being equal to the weapon’s base damage level.


Anybody who feels like fixing/upgrading it to 4th feel free - it'll save my lazy butt some effort wink.gif
Thain
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 9 2007, 11:36 PM)
QUOTE (Thain @ Feb 10 2007, 12:18 AM)
<snipped coolness about the Garand>
If you can start play with ¥250,000 (SR4) or ¥1,000,000 (SR1-3) in unspent wealth, why the heck do you turn to a life of petty crime?
I'd buy a nice, comfy, upper-middle class lifestyle and a above-average Fake SIN and take it easy. Watch some trid. Take the wife and kid on a vacation to see a tree. You know... not shoot people in the face for petty cash.


Uhh, check again - you can't. Starting wealth for gear dosen't carryover on a 1:1 basis. I think it's something like divided by 100 - that's at most 2,500 (SR4) or 10K (SR3)


Yes, but you buy lifestyle before making the adjustment to cash on hand.

So, in SR4 you can start with 50 months of Middle Lifestyle. That's a touch over four years, which is far longer than most characters live. It'd be a very boring campaign (GM: "Roll Agility to see if you successfuly mow your lawn." PC:"Uh, can I add my Blades skill?" GM:"I. Hate. You.") but it would be a legit thing to do at CharGen.
Nath
The tweak was buying Digestive Expansion bioware for ¥80,000, which reduced the cost of lifestyle by 20%, and then buy a permanent high lifetyle for ¥800,000 instead of a million. Halas, it only lefts you with ¥120,000, which was not enough for a Westwind Turbo. You needed to make a custom lifestyle out of the Sprawl Survival Guide to save ¥18,000.

About firefighters, Franklin Associates is the one operating in Seattle, ever since Seattle SB. It also operates in Atlanta according to the Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America. I introduced Yokogawa's subsidiary Emeral Crisis Management in Shadows of Asia, as an extension of both their Fire & Marine Insurance and industrial utilities branches, and a PR tools after the Year of the Comet earthquakes. According to Runner Havens, they also operates in Hong Kong.
Demonseed Elite
Yeah, as Nath pointed out, the firefighters in Hong Kong are privatized. As is the Hong Kong Police Force (which Mitsuhama recently lost the contract to in favor of Ares) and even the unofficial naval presence around the city.
Thane36425
QUOTE (Thain)

So, in SR4 you can start with 50 months of Middle Lifestyle. That's a touch over four years, which is far longer than most characters live. It'd be a very boring campaign (GM: "Roll Agility to see if you successfuly mow your lawn." PC:"Uh, can I add my Blades skill?" GM:"I. Hate. You.") but it would be a legit thing to do at CharGen.

Good point, but that is howmost people in the SR world would live. A mage could buy a middle lifestyle and an alchemist lab and be set for life moneywise. Karma would be a problem though.
Thain
QUOTE (Thane36425)
QUOTE (Thain @ Feb 10 2007, 10:11 AM)

So, in SR4 you can start with 50 months of Middle Lifestyle. That's a touch over four years, which is far longer than most characters live. It'd be a very boring campaign (GM: "Roll Agility to see if you successfuly mow your lawn." PC:"Uh, can I add my Blades skill?" GM:"I. Hate. You.") but it would be a legit thing to do at CharGen.

Good point, but that is howmost people in the SR world would live. A mage could buy a middle lifestyle and an alchemist lab and be set for life moneywise. Karma would be a problem though.

Well, if you gain Karma by successfuly completing goals (i.e, runs) then it stands to reason that you could gain karma by successfuly completing goals (i.e, doing well at work)

Granted, the point of the game is to play people-who-shoot-people-for-money, not to play Mr. Middle-Class Home Owner. We call that real life around here, and its really just something to do between game sessions.
WhiskeyMac
You mean to say they don't have a Shadowrun add-on for The Sims 2? Damn it, that makes me want to uninstall it right now.
apollo124
Why would anyone go hunting juggernauts, leviathans, or dragons?

Whose bright idea was it to try to make ghouls equal to humans?

Did anyone believe Ares when it said the bug spirits were all gone from Chicago? How did they know?

How do people explain the recent reintroduction of Or'Zet, without thinking of Sperethiel as another language from the 4th world, since the Or'zet codex was written with ancient Sperethiel on it a la the Rosetta Stone?




fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
Why would anyone go hunting juggernauts, leviathans, or dragons?

leivathans are apaprently dragons according to DoSW, but to answer your question, dumb people. Juggernauts arent' related to the other two.

QUOTE
Whose bright idea was it to try to make ghouls equal to humans?

They aren't equal. A movement started, because of the writings of a ghoul in the CZ, and they passed some stuff in the UCAS< (act 162 or some such) but it aws all recinded.

QUOTE
Did anyone believe Ares when it said the bug spirits were all gone from Chicago? How did they know?

A lot of people did, because the bugs stopped showing up. Ares probably knew better though.

QUOTE
How do people explain the recent reintroduction of Or'Zet, without thinking of Sperethiel as another language from the 4th world, since the Or'zet codex was written with ancient Sperethiel on it a la the Rosetta Stone?


A lot of people still think Sperethiel is a recently made up language, and Or'zet the same thing. Robert Page, as I recall, has never given the book over for study. look at what Tolkien did after all with languages.
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