This is my problem. Jumping into a drone in SR3 used to be a no-brainer. If you wanted performance, you jumped in. A VCR 3 made you a god among men. Even a VCR 1 was a major step up. I'm going by memory - my books are with a new home - but didn't you get a -2 to your target number for each level of your VCR?

In SR4, it's not so simple. Let's go with a medium example. Let's say a character has both skill and un-augmented reaction of 4.

Case 1: Get wired reflexes 2, drive with AR assist and your pool jumps to 11. 3 IP.
Case 2: Get a good comlink and Command 6, go Hot, and your pool is 10. 3 IP. /edit Leehouse is right. 11 /edit no, 12.
Case 3: Jump into a security vehicle with response 4 and your pool is 8 w/-1 threshold. (Sometimes or always, depending on GM) equivalent to a pool of 11. 3 IP. A Control Rig adds just 2 to the pool. Damaging feedback when the vehicle gets hurt. Dumpshock when it goes down. /edit Thank you Aaron. I just read the FAQ. +2 for hot sim.

I guess a rigger could modify all his vehicles to response 6, but that's expensive especially if the GM uses SOTA rules for computer tech. And even then, is that really a god among men ability like riggers used to have with vehicles?

I think I want to create (house rule) a VCR 2 and VCR 3 with +4 and +6 added to driving tests. A really difficult maneuver under really difficult conditions is a threshold 7 test. -1 for jumping in, you'd need 18 dice (and no negative modifiers) to pull it off semi-consistently. To be consistent with SR3 and earlier I think a great driver with a great vehicle and top of the line cyberware should have a half decent chance of pulling off that 7 threshold test. To my knowledge there are no +6 handling vehicles, but skill 6, response 6, and a VCR 3 giving +6 does exactly what I'm looking for.

Here's where I need the most help. What were the prices and essence values of the SR3 VCRs? The SR4 VCR seems to be just the "drive well" part of the old VCR without the initiative enhancement, so I'm thinking I'll subtract out the prices and essence values of the SR3 wired reflexes so I need those too. Is the price difference of the SR3 VCR 1 and SR3 WR 1 times the price ratio of the SR4 WR / SR3 WR (to adjust for cyberware price deflation) anything close to the SR3 VCR ( 10,000)? Is the essence difference between SR3's VCR 1 and WR 1 close to the SR4 VCR essence of 0.5?

Help me out here. Did I miss anything? Is this a crazy idea?

/edit Now I'm remembering. The VCRs had lower essence cost than wired reflexes (naturally because of decreased utility i.e. balance). I guess that part won't work. Was the VCR more expensive? If that math doesn't work either, I'll just have to pull prices out of my hinder as well as essence. Suggestions?

I also don't have my books with me as I am at work but I think the SR3 VCR had a steep increase in essence cost. Maybe it was 1 essence per level or something for standard grade? I think it was a total of 3 for the top model.

-Strobe

...heck, KK4.3 has a pool of 10 / 3 IP when driving and she's a blade/gunbunny adept.

Yeah riggers were definitely brought back down to mortal status in SR4.

Should I even ask why you would want a "god-like" character?

All in all, things are more balanced now. This isn't about making mega-characters, this is about making playable characters in a dystopian future so that everybody can have fun.

Honestly, why would being jumped in make you a better driver? It would quicken response slightly, but unless you have sensory input from every inch of your vehicle, you're not getting the "jumped in" experience that so much of the fluff described. And being jumped in shouldn't make the car any more physically capable than it was with a good driver at the wheel.

I guess I just miss the flavor of the old riggers. The vehicle control rig let them become one with the machine. It was akin to what ASIST allowed a decker to do. I remember reading about the hacker was truly born during the first crash, and I was filled with awe and wonder at the possibilities. It's true now that -given the same skills, comlink, and programs- a hacker in hot VR is little better than a sam using AR. The only significant difference is the time interval while probing the target. Even the data jack means nothing special now. Trodes are just as good. Perhaps you're right and I should leave well enough alone, but I do remember folks arguing to limit AR users to one matrix action per combat turn regardless of how many IPs they had. I don't think I'm alone in wishing for superiority within a character's specialty - that hackers were the unchallenged masters of the matrix and riggers were the masters of driving. To me it is as if mundanes were allowed to call up spirits or use spells (perhaps with a 10,000 wand) with only a -2 to their dice pool. That would make being a mage less special. The way it is now, being a rigger is no more than buying a car and knowing how to drive well. It used to be more.

I guess I don't want everybody to be balanced. I want sams to be really good at what they do and no good at what riggers do. I want hackers to be unbalanced compared to non-hackers. I want mages to be unbalanced against mundanes (wait, they still are). I remember someone complaining about some of the flaws that were priced differently for hackers and technomancers. They asked where do you draw the line? What's a hacker? Anyone with a comlink? That's almost everybody according to the fluff! Do you need a skill in cybercombat? Cracking group? 1? 2? I thought it was fun when PCs in the group got to shine at various points in the run. I never had problems with playability of riggers in SR2 or 3. They were damn expensive, but good at what they did.

You answer your last question yourself. So much of the fluff describes being jumped in as getting sensory input from every inch of the vehicle. Your heart beats with the pulse of the engine. The oil is your blood. You feel the rough concrete under the grip of the tires. Being jumped in didn't make the car any more physically capable, but it did allow the rigger to push it to it's utter limit without ending up as a flaming puddle. That was the old rules. That's the fluff. I think the rules should live up to the fluff. The fluff is the atmosphere that describes the game world I want to live in while I play. I don't think you'd need a million sensors to pull it off. You put in 3 axis acceleration and 3 axis rotation sensors. Wheel speed. Suspension travel. A dozen strain gauges (they're small and cheap). A couple extra cameras and microphones. Maybe a couple extra engine and transmission sensors and you can model the car in exquisite detail. Half that stuff is standard with an autopilot. That's why I miss the god-like SR3 and previous riggers.

there's a problem with that approach, Da9iel, and it's that the game becomes a series of mini-games that only one character type can participate in at a time. if riggers are completely untouchable in vehicle combat by non-riggers, what's the rest of the team do during the car chase scene? if hacking is something only hackers can do, what's the rest of the team do during the datasteal portion of the run?

you could integrate the team by having hacking, rigging, and meatworld objectives that all have to be accomplished at once--if your GM is up to the task of keeping that many balls in the air at once, all the time (not to mention coming up with an in-game reason for it every time). i certainly couldn't do that--running just rigging, just decking, or just meatworld stuff is sometimes more than i can handle.

making specialized tasks doable by nonspecialized characters also allows for more varied scenarios. to challenge a rigger, before, you needed another rigger. now you just need three or four decent drivers. and a team that doesn't have a rigger can be challenged by a rigger without getting their asses handed to them.

I don't think that riggers should become that much more powerful then regular characters. I think that advantages for Riggers should come from two sources:

They can easily control multiple vehicles.

They get some vehicle actions as free actions.

If they are piloting remotely they should get some sort of bonus for the fact that they are not worried about their own life at the time.

I think that they should also be more focused on E Warfare as a seperate form of hacking. That whay they could more easily hack other vehicles but be different from the hacker.

I really want the Rigger to be a seperate character from the hacker but not bog down the system with a completely different rules set. Something simple but useful.

just don't forget that hotsim is still worth +2 dice to the rigger, for a total of +4 dice with the vehicle rig.

additionally, don't forget that you're now looking at +4 dice to all tests, including attack and dodge instead of drive.

you say that sammys can be almost as good while driving meat, well i say a rigger can be better for a mere fraction of the cost. you comment that response 6 is "expensive", well maybe you better compare it to the cost of wired 2. now add in some kind of agility boost.

the rigger will have better vehicle skills (including gunnery), more skills (ie will probably have 2-3 vehicle skills instead of 1) and will spend a lot less resources getting to that point... meaning that the rigger can afford two or three vehicles, and maybe even some drone support. he will have some degree of skill in electronic warfare and the like, as well as some knowledge of mechanical skills most likely.

meanwhile, the sam has blown all his cash on cyber, and has no money for a good vehicle, let alone a half dozen drones with weapons mounted and full programs. he's blown skill points on 3 or 4 different combat skills, the athletics group, the stealth group, and so forth, while the rigger doesn't need to worry about those.

seriously, try and build a sammy who can rig as well as a rigger (or fairly close), on anywhere near the budget a rigger can do it in. go ahead and try to add on all those rigger skills to your sammy build... and understand that the resources and skills involved in being a good sammy or a good rigger means that you are going to be a substandard sammy with almost as good driving ability as a rigger, or a rigger with most of the combat capability of a sam.

(for example: the sammy needs natural reaction and agility of 5 to start, pretty much. the rigger can get by with 3, and some cyber to boost to 5. the sammy pretty much needs 3 IPs in the meat. the rigger can do fine with 2, and can accomplish that via cheap combat drugs. the sammy needs 2-3 gun skills at 4-5, and a close combat skill, plus athletics group. the rigger can probably get by with one gun skill and dodge at 4 (possibly boosted by reflex recorder, but not too likely). the sammy will have a dicepool of about 14 on attack, 7 on standard defense, and 3 IPs... and the fight may have ended by 3 IPs anyways. the rigger most likely has 11 dice attack, 5 dice defense, and 2 IPs. and will have spent a lot less BPs getting there.)

i for one would say that while we can certainly use some vehicle modification rules, and maybe a few more cool toys for riggers, they are going to be a fair amount better than the sammy in vehicles, and not too far behind in meat, simply by taking the basics. the sammy can be close to the rigger in vehicles... but has to go out of his way to do so. i am not seeing the problem. i mean, keep in mind that someone with a vehicle skill at 4 is "expert level" and that a reaction of 7 is literally beyond standard human capability. we are not exactly comparing the rigger to the average joe here, we're comparing him to a superhuman driver. i can't say i have a huge problem with mr superhuman being close to a rigger.

Alright, I yield to the will of the gestalt

Never yeild

First of all, that's a stupid motto. It would cause all sorts of car accidents and similar life problems.

But seriously I didn't think that the +2 for hot sim applied to jumping in. That just means that everyone can be a rigger. All you need is a comlink. Rigger = driver. Hacker = anyone with a hacking skill. It's all degrees of the same thing. There's no one point that you can say someone is or isn't a good enough driver to qualify for the prestigious title of rigger. I have assimilated this information and will now continue my play with sorrow.

Over focus on specialization is terrible for shadowrunners anyway. Over focus on the top end of all dice pools and crying that a specialist isn't any better than someone else who has also managed to specialize in teh same thing in a different way is equally terrible, if only because it is so very narrow minded.

Your Rigger has an advantage over non-riggers. Actually, he has TWO. First of all, his gear gives him a lowered threshold that non-riggers won't have. That's essentially +4 dice to every roll. Powerful mojo, my friend, powerful.

Secondly: No other character has the BP/Karma/Essence/Money to match the rigger in his specialty AND be equally specialized in what they are supposed to be doing. Seriously. Maybe once you toss out 500 karma, then MAYBE the Sammy might have the skills to start intruding on the Rigger's thing.

S'okay. By that point the rigger should be intruding upon the Sammy's Thang too.

As for the driving adept? Fuck him, he's just a rigger with a funny name and huge karma problems instead of money problems. Ok... fewer money problems. Two ways to skin that Rigger Cat.

Of course, now I gotta look at the RAW for VCR's....

Perhaps Arsenal and/or Augmentation will have some new rigger toys, so don't give up hope yet .

...Just to clarify things, KK4.3 is not a driving adept, just a physad who happens to have a 7 Reaction and 1 level of Pilot Ground Vehicle skill with a specialisation in Car (learned with Karma after chargen). The role of the team's driver was kind of forced on her since she had the highest reaction stat & earned enough money to buy a vehicle.

Kind of like when I was back in primary school, I was the tallest kid so I was effectively expected to play on the Basketball team. Hell, I couldn't even time a layup right.

[Edit] somehow when first I clicked on Submit Post after writing this didn't get added in the queue (thank the spirits for the History menu in Firefox).

...never give up, never surrender

I kind of am with Da9iel on this. In previous versions of SR I enjoyed playing riggers. Yeah they were a huge drain on resources, but damn they were fun. Heck with a rigger controlling a vehicle, a sammy riding along could usually use his full initiative and as suggested either fire out the window/gunport or man the turret/pintle mount. With the advent of Bioware, Riggers could also hold their own outside the vehicle pretty well (Most of mine had at least a rating 1 Synaptic accelerator).

There is also something about being "The Best of the Best" at what you do which is why I still have some issue with skill caps. Other than the awakened, most characters become homogenised e.g. a Sammy can also be a very capable Hacker and a Rigger (or the other way around).

Yeah running decker ops as a GM was a pain, but there were alternate rules to speed the process up. The thing is The basic mechanic used for wireless hacking could also have worked with the old hardwired system. You could throw out the cumbersome Programme size attributes and work cyberdecks similar to commlinks relating to programme load and performance while still keeping the "mystique" of the old matrix alive.

The same could hold true for riggers. Godlike may not be the best of terms. It is more like being a star athlete, the guy who flew an SR-71, a NASCAR/F1 driver, or a WWI or WWII ace. The best of the best.

True, Wireless Hacking in SR echoes the trend current in RL but RL is boring, I live it everyday 24-7 just like everybody else does. Years ago when you walked into a coffee shop and opened up a "portable" computer (with a blazing 16m of RAM) you turned heads. Today I can look around the cafe and see at least a half dozen people with open notebooks working on homework, presentations, or reading the latest headlines from halfway around the world. Don't get me wrong, I think the wireless revolution today is a good thing (I wouldn't be writing this right now if it were not so). However it has also further demystified the computer which only 35 years ago was something buried in the cellar of a University math research building and understood by awkward looking guys wearing black plastic rimmed glasses with sliderules on their belts.

This is why I like the diversion of FRPs. For a couple of hours it is fun to shed the mantle of the day to day office drone to become that ghost in the machine, or an asphalt burning king of the road and know what you are best at & few others can do. People can say what they want about fantasy & being something you are not, but isn't this why we all play the game in the first place?

@ Butterblume: I do agree, Arsenal & Augmented could very well change all this.

Honestly, its all about how you rp. Riggers are still scary, theres just more ways to be a Rigger. You want to do all of what you just said, roleplay it as such. Description of an action can go a long way and aids the GM a great deal.

I also think the distinctions between VR and AR are simply not enough.

Bye
Thanee

I think that there should be NO difference between AR and VR, but I think that there should be a much bigger difference between implant and trode and gloves.

Me too. What were you thinking? A flat -1 or -2 dice pool penalty to trodes and gloves? That would keep the high end from getting higher. Or a +1 or +2 for DNI use?

Well I think that the DNI should get a bonus and let the trodes and gloves just be access.

I was thinking of maybe focusing alot more on direct signal use for riggers. Basically it maybe too much of a target or too easy to jam for using the matrix as a relay. What if actual security vehicles wouldn't connect with the Matrix and used high powered signal systems with small drones as relays.

Yes a person could use thier commlink to call their car. You might even want your roach drones to send you e-mail.

I think that it would be more interesting if drones and such normally used direct signals or existing instructions instead. Then it becomes about E Warfare instead of hacking. It has it's own set of things but can be kept simple.

Then you could do something like have a bonus or penalty based on clear signals versus jamming.

Maybe turn a VCR into something like a specialized computer focused on this kind of thing. Not just a box with a bonus. More like an E Warfare panel with remote control systems and very high signal.

Maybe someone who knows more about that could add to it ( or make it make more sense)

@ Aaron: We both missed something. Just read the FAQ. +2 for hot sim applies when jumped in. I missed that. I mentioned 2 more dice for a control rig a little later in that paragraph. You missed that. The control rig is optional for a rigger. You can jump in without one. That's why I only mentioned it as an aside.

@mfb: I was actually talking about SR4. You get as many actions as you have while in a vehicle. I too thought it was stupid to be limited by the rigger in SR3. I'm also not considering changing the basic control rig. Buy-in is still 10,000 and 0.5 E.
/edit Strike that. Buy-in is still the cost of a vehicle + trodes for "crappy riggers." You can jump in without a control rig in SR4

I think the big thing in SR4 is that you don't have to have a rigger to have a pretty good driver. In the 2050s (SR3), anyone who wasn't wired was likely to eat a wall if the driving was dicey. In the 2060s Joe WageSlave drives his car in VR using a trode net and his stock Comm, which boosts his reaction time (multiple IP) and makes driving easier (-2 threshold). Runners can go hotsim for an extra +2 dice and a sometimes-wheelman can justify the 0.5E for a control rig for yet another +2 dice.

Just like you don't have to be a wired samurai to be an pretty good shot. Of course, a "real" rigger will be able to use a wide variety of vehicles/drones just like a "real" samurai can use an array of weapons.

It is much more a of a job description than an identity now.

...hmmm KK4.3 with trodes and driving in VR...?

Nah, given her "expertise" with a commlink she would become more dangerous behind the wheel instead of less.