Okay I have always had a problem with the fact that the Shadowrun Matrix seems to do things all wrong when you know computers. It seems to go to alot of effort to do things that we can do more easily now (browsing for web pages). I have been pushing for a more realistic Internet instead of the overly VR set up the game has.

Alot of people, including some of my players, are very attatched to the VR stuff though. They tell me that it has to do with the feel of the game for them. They can visualize it better. They also want to be able to browse a simple web page. They see my points but it doesn't feel right to them.

I came up with something that I think makes sense and works on all points. How about if both exist? How about a normal Internet with media and some VR chat rooms and such as I have been describing? You use a commlink to access AR and the Internet. You do all the normal stuff. The mass of people can call up web pages that could be text and graphic and have some VRML type stuff in it as well.

AND have a Matrix that looks like the older editions complete with floating pyramids and solid VR walls with patrolling guards. This would be a form of communication across a quantum domain where energy can be solid to energy there. You can create lots of constucts that take up space. There are jack points and cyberdecks are the devices used to access this space. A Decker is a specialist in Matrix hacking. This is a realm used almost exclusively my the military and the megacorps. There are mostly scientists using the super processing properties of this quantum domain for experiments.

A normal person would never access the Matrix. They would use the Internet as normal. The decker would sneak into the Matrix using stolen cyberdeck technology. An Otaku (Technomancer) becomes someone who can access the Matrix without a cyberdeck. Both the otaku and the cyberdeck have a resonance rating to show how much they can impact the Matrix. The Hacker becomes an expert at Internet and Security hacking and they don't overlap. You could have both on your team if you needed them.

Objects in the Matrix are solid to each other and if you build an object in the matrix such as a body (Avatar) then it can be disrupted with enough force. This means that you can beat the crap out of each other there and it will dump you out. Certain attacks could carry virus Grey and Black IC that would try to inject you with it when you hit a person. The amount of damage you can take would be determined by the resonance of your cyberdeck. You can also create objects with a solidness determined the same way. Your physical skills become useful there so a decker would be physically frail but know kung fu and Kenjutsu.

You couldn't teleport around or turn into energy so you would have a reason to create strange vehicles like light cycles. It would be a combination of Tron and the Matrix but have a more logical reason to it.

You could communicate through your jack point or a relay point to the Internet if you set something up. You could jackout at any point but anything you are carrying would be lost so you need to bring any data you steal to a relay point or all the way back to your jack point (which could lead them back to you). You can't move your jack point or it will loose resonace with the Matrix so you should have your jack point hidden and guarded.

What do you guys think?

I don't like the idea of separating the domains that the technomancer and the hacker(decker) operate in. I mean, sure, you could have both on one team, or if you don't your GM merely keeps the game in whatever realm you have access to, but I like the idea of being able to have characters that can do different things through technology or magic.

I mean, okay, for combat you have Sams and Adepts(yes, I know adepts can do different things.)
For the matrix you have Hackers or Technomancers.
And even to some extent, for versatility you have Mages and Riggers.

That last one requires some explanation. Both can summon beasties to put a hurtin on folks, both can spy on people from distances, both can heal folks(one may be with a med drone, but still, 6 extra dice ain't nothin' to frown at.) Yeah it's a really loose similarity, but I think it's still valid on some level.

Perhaps if both the Internet and the Matrix could be accessed by either Technomancer or Hacker, but each got a +2/-2 to their specialized/restricted area?

Thats just my first gut reaction.

Well as things stand you either have to house rule the technomancers to make them balenced or you get rid of one. The RAW for both sucks.

It is more about being about to have a logical Internet and the VR stuff that people seem to like.

BTW please don't start another response chain of I like the RAW. If you like it the way it is then this thread is not about you.

Maybe he's upset the players have to roll Data Search + Browse to download Pr0n?

Garrowolf,

I think when you say Internet, you actually mean Web. The difference is important. I don't think it's possible to have Internet and Matrix at the same time. The two work very differently. This is a repost, but it's relevant here, I did a piece on this here which I think illustrates the differences between the two and why those differences exist.

But if you're talking about the Web, then sure. But I don't see what the big deal is. You have a web style interface for your AR link and it's all fine. It would be a bit more 2070, voice recognition instead of typing, a virtual head relaying your results and information to you, but doable. Interacting with other personas would appear in little chat windows, etc. Cyber-combat would have to be portrayed differently and I'd impose a penalty myself.

But it's doable. AR is similar in a lot of ways (but the differences would trip up someone from 2007). It would just be boring to me from a flavour point of view if you took it too far.

I guess you could say that the Web is a subset of the Internet if that is what you are talking about.

Why is it strange to have an Internet AND a Matrix. I don't see the point of a Matrix in the first place but people seem to be attached to it for some reason (mostly cool factor).

You can have VR without alot of the silliness of the Matrix. You can just have VR code on your web pages and have VR chat rooms. Throw away most of the hacking rules and cybercombat and agents. The rest would work just fine as an Internet. Yes you would access web pages as AR or in floating VR windows or whatever. Just remove the connection between simsense and VR and move all this silliness about VR being faster. You have a simple and logical advanced internet.

So why isn't this the norm? Because people want hacking in the game and they want it to work like it used to in the game. They think that it looks cool or visualizes easily.

99.999999% of the population doesn't need all that stuff about the matrix. They can do just fine without it. They can play their video games in VR or go to VR malls.

I problem is people think that the matrix IS VR. It isn't. The Matrix USES VR. We can create VR right now and we don't have the Matrix. The Matrix is a lot of bad assumptions based on old beliefs about the development of the Internet. It came from writers with no concept of computers. You don't need most of it and you wouldn't want most of it.

People keep on telling me that the Matrix works that way because it is in the FUTURE. The Matrix may be in the future but the game is in the present. It doesn't fly to me and it requires much too much material to talk about it. In most other games you can write down that you have a laptop or a computer and that is the end of it.

But we have to accomidate interest in hacking for this game because it is a part of the genre. Some people love it. I find it annoying as written because I can't stay in the game. It is like reading a book with rocks that is wonderful scifi until they tell you that the rocket is made of chesse. But they insist that it is FUTURE CHESSE so that is okay. I can't suspend disbelief with the Matrix. It is a huge amount of unnecessary.

So what to do? I rewrote the rules to try and simplify things and keep as much as I could of the hacking. Unfortunately I took some of the feel out for some of my players. So I finally came up with this idea. Split the two. Leave the Matrix with all of it's strangeness another place. Make a normal advanced Internet. I'm going to see how much I can simplify the Internet rules and equipment wise. Then if they want to deal with the Matrix it will live up to their expectations and not give me so much of a head ache.

And no - if it was as simple you wouldn't need a Browse program at all. And no I NEVER have them roll a skill + a program.

And No I wont go play d20 modern. I hate d20 in most of it's forms

If you are willing to get rid of the TRONisms, like "Cybercombat" and the Persona stuff you can do a lot of fixing. But you have to rip out most/all of the underlying rules and fluff. Is that what you are looking to do?

well what I was doing was to have a simple and logical Internet that is reasitic. Then have a seperate "Matrix" that people could go nuts in and would be what they liked.

Garrowolf,

I can't constructively comment on your post because the idea of some sort of alternate dimension Matrix creates a massive reaction in some part of my brain in a way that you seem to suggest the current Matrix environment does for you. I just can't really see it in any practical simulation in my head. (It really does sound more like Tron though. Which, okay, has a certain coolness factor to it...)

I have two comments. I hope they are in some way helpful:

1) I think a lot of Matrix makes more sense if we stop thinking of the Matrix as purely an interface, but rather think of it as a combination programming language and operating system. At some point in its construction certain decisions were made about how user-friendly the Matrix should be, what kind of programs it should support, its basic topology, etc., and since then computer users have been bound by those choices. Thus, node hosts and hackers alike are forced to use a super-high-level programming access in VR in order to setup their nodes or data access. The Matrix has certain built-in operating system values regarding advanced memory/storage allocation across a widely distributed network, virtual machines, virtual construct programs, anti-virus programs, self-repair routines, learning and adapting functions, etc. etc., that help at least partially explain away most Matrix inconsistencies. It also helps explain why no one has to deal with such issues as memory or storage or the location of files or why everyone's software and operating system seems to be universally compatabile. The Matrix was basically designed, not to to function as a better Web Browser, but to be a functional universal Operating System and dynamic programming environment accessible and customizable to every common user. To a limited extent, the Matrix even evolves and updates itself as necessary, purges lost or retired agents, manages communication between nodes, etc.

2) I've noticed that much of the "flavor" of Shadowrun rules comes from its dynamic option building - there are multiple methods to access each system, at least three different character subtypes that can usually be built with that system, and at least one of those character-types overlaps with a character-type from another system. I think if a set of house rules encompassed this interaction and overlap, it would carry a lot of flavor that might otherwise be lacking. Most house rules I've seen and created are little more than "skeletal systems" that players who don't like playtesting tend to get bored with.

3) If you want to, you might be able to explain your alternate "Matrix" using the metaphor of another operating system. Basically "internet" and "Matrix" (you might have to call them different things" would essentially be two different non-compatible operating systems. Some high-end or specialty users use and prefer one which grants certain advantages, while most of the commonners tend to prefer the other more universally-compatible and widely-distributed non-Matrix operating system. Something like that. The parrellels between Unix and Windows here should be obvious and more easily accessible. Alternatively, I could see the argument that Renraku has managed to keep the old VR Matrix in this alternate form and stay in business selling it to high-end users, while NeoNet continues to hold a near-monopoly with their AR system for mass-markets.

i see where your getting at, but you should consider that the ar interface looks neerly exactly like the internet we use today, while still being the matrix. point being, your trying to bring into your game a computer system that doesnt exist inside of shadowrun, it went down with the first crash.

Garrowolf,

Both can work together. Matrix is VR. AR can be matrix or web.


Joe WageSlave goes home, sits in his comfy chair, picks up his keyboard, dons a sensor-glove and his imagelink display glasses. He starts off by checking email. He hits the email button on the keyboard and sips soycaf as a list of emails show up in a "window" floating in his field of vision.


Invisibly to Joe, his persona (GoodCitizen#5 icon) has appeared on the email server. His icon's "download email" animation grabs a pile of letters from his mail box. Another user on the email server could not tell if Joe was in VR, AR or a terminal but they could recognize Joe, assuming his icon was sufficiently modified to be unique. Joe splurged and has his face on the GoodCitizen, though not his beergut.


Seeing nothing of interest, he opens a connection to YaGooVista in a floating window and checks for live sporting events. He selects an UrbranBrawl game and lets it run in the floating window.


Once again in the background, Joe's Citizen icon appears on YaGooVista. Other users can see that Joe is present (much like here on DumpShock) and could talk with him if the wanted to. Since YaGooVista is so busy, however, it is like wandering into Grand Central Station at rush hour.

When Joe selects his brawl game, his icon disappears from YaGooVista and moves to the UrbanBrawlWorld server. This is "following" a link as compared to "open in new window."


During lulls in the game he focuses on his email; mainly catalogs for new AREs. While his attention is away from the Brawl window the volume is automatically reduced but not entirely muted. A stream of "commercials" bombard his Brawl window, which he ignores out of habit.

Done with email, he puts down the keyboard, selects the Urban Brawl window and switches it to POV mode focused on the biker. The video stream is coming off of the biker's helmet cam. Geting into the groove, he switches from "window" mode to surround mode (VR-lite). The window grows until it covers his entire field of vision. His sensor glove pulses with the bike's engines.


The commercials are, IMO, "Chat requests" from Agents on the UrbanBrawlWorld server. They see Joe's icon, run a background check on his account info, and ask him if he'd like to subscribe to UBW Premium (that enables the cameras in the locker rooms) or possibly an icon based on the player whose POV he is using.

Joe decides this is a great match so he pulls out his trode-net and fires up the SIM. Suddenly he can feel the bike beneath him and smell the exhaust. It isn't as intense as full VR but it definitely enhances the ambiance. The game ends shortly thereafter but Joe is still kinda pumped.

He logs onto the UBW VirtuaBrawl system. His system lags for a moment as it switches from the GoodCitizen#5 icon to a KillaBika4(ork) for the game. Joe sets the SIM module to "full" VR (cold-sim, Joe doesn't even really know about hot-sim except as the thing used by BTL). His vision and hearing is completely overriden by the full VR and his body goes limp as the SIM module gets its instructions directly from his brain.

During a lull in play while new teams are being selected, he pulls in his email window to see if anything good has arrived. The window is completely invisible to other players. Joe hides the window with a thought.

During a particularly fierce firefight Joe gets a call. Not wanting to be too distracted, he accepts it as voice only while he plays. It's his mother who simply won't be quiet.

He logs off the game in frustration and his VR environment goes to his Comm's default workspace (Olde English Den-Victorian). He switches his persona back to GoodCitizen and opens a video window to chat with his mother. She dislikes dealing with personas, even if it does have her son's face. Joe's still grubby from work and doesn't feel like having her henpeck him any further than necessary so he insists on VR or voice only.

In order for anyone who knows as much as I do about computers (which is just enough), you're best to remember that the matrix is not the internet, and never was. SR was created in the 80's before the internet we know and love existed. The matrix was an imagined possible way to network computers in cool and exciting way in a possible future. Even in 2nd edition (and maybe 3rd- I don't remember), it wasn't designed for the average citizen user.

One thing the writers could have done is turned the matrix into a future version of the internet, but it's not that either. SR gave up revising their history to keep it in line with our own, and it officially diverges from our own significantly in the 90s. (Technically, before that, but only in smaller events).

The addition of AR was a way to add a new aspect to the Matrix that the average user can utilize the way we all utilize the internet now. You can interface with it on a monitor with a keyboard and mouse, or with AR gloves, or trodes, or an implanted commlink.

That's why hacking doesn't work the way it does in real life. That's why it's not like the internet- cause it's not the internet.

I'm not saying it makes sense, but it's the suspended disbelief you have to use in order to buy it within the context of the game.

Dread Polack

Oddly enough I can agree with most of this and it would work but it doesn't actually solve the problem I am having.

See this time it isn't my issues with the game but my players and my coGM. They like most of the changes I have made and they understand them. The problem is that this part is what has broken the feel of shadowrun for them. They want the cybercombat decking. They like the metaphor even if I don't. Now I have been struggling with this because I will run a crappy game or get into arguments too much when something doesn't make sense to me. It's like being kicked in the back of the head every once in a while. I'm trying to create something that makes sense to me AND makes them happy.

Basically I need to do a few things:

Seperate Matrix type stuff from normal day to day wireless, web, and security hacking.

Simplify the basic commlink stuff for normal users. I have some ideas for this.

Make the Martix stuff more like the 1st and 2nd ed stuff with all the floating pyramids and stuff and make it closer to the novels to make those people in my group happy with it.

I got some ideas and I'll be posting them up here soon for feed back.

Thanx guys

Simple Shadowrun Internet

This is a simplified version of the Internet for Shadowrun. Further hacking rules are separate.

Commlinks and Computers
Commlinks are simplified into a few categories based on their rating. For the most part this rating and what that type of commlink can do are the only factors. There is no response rating. Signal rating is by type. The rating of the device is the system rating and the default for any programs. You don’t need to buy any programs either. The Firewall rating is by type.
Each level will have two ratings. The lower is the standard. The higher rating is for a high quality one.

Virgil (1-2) – This is a small commlink that fits on to your thumb and first finger. It comes with a set of contacts or glasses. It can project AR and work as a PDA, video cell phone, etc. You hold your hand and make a gun sign. A screen will appear in between your thumb and first finger. Video and audio pick ups on your hand cover your side of the conversation. You can see floating windows and all the normal aspects of AR. Most people have these. This comes with a Firewall 4 and Signal 2. .

Proteus (3-4) – This commlink is watch-sized and has several ports for accessing other devices. It can do VR and AR overlays. It is also powerful enough to run an infomorph such as a secretary program. Linguasofts can be run from a Proteus with no problem. You can use a Virgil with this or use a camera in the surface. This comes with Firewall 5 and Signal 3.

Specialized Computers (5-6) – This includes several types of computers that are too specialized for most consumers. Things like servers, Cyberdecks, and Vehicle Control Rigs. They usually have a Firewall 6 and variable signal ratings.

High End Military or Megacorp Computers (7- – These have incredible power and are very hard to hack into. Most of the time they will only have one of these and the rest as servers. They can have rating 7-8 Firewalls and usually have no signal ratings as they are mostly hardwired and require direct access.


The term Virgil comes from Tom Clancy novels. The look of them comes from the Discovery Channel 2057 show.

The term Proteus comes from the Brian Delany White Ship Series. I've been using commlinks for years based on those novels. I just can't help but call them that.