I have two types of players. Those who have played previous editions of SR have an extreme and irrational fear of hacking. (well, maybe not entirely irrational) As well as those who haven't played SR previously have an extreme and irrational fear of hacking. (because they don't want to delve into yet more new rules)

My goal is to simplify hacking even more, but hopefully have the end result be comparable.
So here's my idea:
1) All common use and hacking programs are easy enough to get that I'm willing to assume everyone has all of them.
Considering the copy protection rules, and the fact that any of my PC's hackers always end up buying everything and distributing it amongst the group anyway, and always get them at their System rating or higher, I don't think it's worth keeping track of. You still need to track how many are running because that can affect your Response. There's just no excuse for anyone's commlink not to have edit, scan, and all the other common use programs. Anyone can get hacking programs too, but they're still legally restricted, for what that's worth.

2) Ratings for common use and hacking programs are therefore irrelevant, and not even worth keeping track of.
They were always limited by System anyway, which was limited by Response, so ultimately it came down to the hardware they're running it on. Program rating was never a consideration for Response slow-down anyway.

3) OS are still limited in that unless they want to pay to have something rare and/or pseudo-custom i.e. not in the book, requires purchase as per the normal rules, their System will still be limited to the Response, and their Firewall won't go above a 3, since the stock OS don't go any higher. I'm willing to accept that 3 is the practical Firewall limit for something commonly available. If you want better security than that, it has to be rare so that not everyone knows the tricks.

4) To compensate for lower overall costs, the cost of commlinks is increased. Multiply the cost of the commlink by the Response rating to find the new cost.
Cheapo commlinks are still cheap, but a hacker who wants SOTA still pays a comparable cost to what he paid for a commlink and programs per the RAW.

5) Since there is no more program rating, all hacking tests are Attribute+Skill, the relevant attribute for everything I can think of right now being Logic.
Consistency with the core mechanic is good.

Overall, hacking pools will probably get a little bit bigger (not more than 3 dice), since Logic will likely be larger than program rating, but at least Logic matters now. You still have programs in the game, and you still need to manage your memory to prevent Response loss, so the planning element of hacking is preserved. Costs are changed a little, but I tried to compensate to preserve balance. Complexity of the system has gone down, overall, but hopefully power levels haven't changed much. The end result of this hopefully isn't much different from the end result of the standard system.

For the time being, let's not think about Technomancers. I mean it, stop thinking about them! I have some thoughts on them, but I'll get to that after you're done telling me why this is horrible and game-destroying.

So I'm looking for feedback in the form of tweaks and/or unforeseen consequences.

• I like it. Very good points all around.
  
• Using Attribute+Skill ignores program ratings. Yeah, you knew that. But that completely defeats the purpose of tying ratings to System or Response now. What's the point of either of these attributes? Just the amount of simultaneous programs? That doesn't seem like much... so now the comlink attribute ratings have higher costs and less use/need.
  
• Restricting Firewall is likely going to cause an increase in all the annoying "tricks" players are going to try to "invent" to improve their security against hackers; most notably use of agents and trying to tier their comlinks.
  
• I thnk having Firmware upgrades for the Firewall ratings might be a good idea. Sure, software is abundant and comlinks can't handle higher Firewall ratings, but both of these problems could be solved if you get your hands on these chips...

Cetiah:
Thank you.

Response still determines initiative. System still determines the amount of programs running before response slows down (and a few other things, IIRC). I agree that the commlink ratings are deemphasized, but I think they're still far from useless/irrelevant. All in all, yes, this definitely puts more emphasis on the Hacker and less emphasis on his tools. IMO, that's a feature, not a bug. When the hackers attribute and skills are the most important thing, you can have an amazing hacker that can still do pretty well with a poor deck. I think this helps to get away from the script-kiddie thing.

Firewall isn't any more restricted than normal. Perhaps I didn't explain it well. All I'm saying is that you can have any OS for free, out of the book. Of course, none of the out-of-the-book OS's have a Firewall higher than 3. That's not my restriction, that's always been there. If they want to track someone down and buy a better one from a shadow contact and/or write their own, they're welcome to. But they'll have to pay the normal costs for it, they don't get it for free. Anything common enough that you can d/l a cracked copy from a warez site is common enough that it's exploits are well known which effectively translates to Firewall 3 or less. That's all I'm saying.

So you're saying treat Firewall more as hardware than as firmware, thus dodging the copy-protection issue altogether? That's not a bad idea. You could conceivably do the same with system. Hmmm, definitely worth thinking about.

Okay, now that I understand the firewall stuff more, I like it. I would still like to see System having a bigger role but I understand why you made the choices you did. It has too big a role in RAW and I feel too small a role in yours.

But I like it. It's simpler, it's convinient, it makes sense, and it doesn't take anything away from the functionality of the system. I'll probably work these suggestions into my custom hacking rules.

Thanks for the feedback.
System not useful enough, huh? Hmmm, could be. Let me look at the book and remind myself of what all it does.
.....
It's still controlling response loss, it's still limiting subscriptions, it's still limiting program rating for other programs (like Agents), still contributing to matrix condition monitor.
I'm not going to argue with an opinion, but for me, I think System is still useful enough.
Dare I try to tackle Technomancers?

Before I get into technomancers, another issue. Just because there's no reason for PCs not to acquire every program, there will still exist situations where, for whatever reason, a commlink does not have a program. I think the simplest way to handle it is with a hefty DP penalty for trying to work without the appropriate program. Say..... -4 dice? -6? Too high? Too low? Thoughts?


Okay, for technomancers:
Since program rating for common use and hacking programs has been dropped, complex forms should also ignore rating. We'll just treat them like spells for learning them. 3BP or 5 karma. For hacking, they'll use attribute+skill, just like everyone else. Should that attribute be Logic or Resonance?
The purpose of threading was to increase dice pool, so it'll still work the same. If they thread an existing complex form they get extra dice to use with that complex form.

What about CFs that the techno doesn't have? Well, go with the same rule as Hackers. You can try it, but the DP penalty sucks. Threading a CF you don't have is exactly the same as threading one that you do, the only difference is that there is STILL that large penalty for not having a proper CF that you're working against.

I think sprites should be relatively unchanged, though.

So the two questions that arise here are:
What should the DP penalty be for attempting an action without the appropriate program? I'm thinking in the -4 to -6 range, but I'm really not sure.
What is the linked attribute for Technomancers when they make their attribute+skill tests? I'm thinking Resonance, but I'm not sure here, either.

Feedback appreciated.

Moon Hawk You can make it simplier then that and still work.

Response as the only limiter. You don't need two traits doing the same thing. Don't bother with response drops. Just tell them that they can't run infinite numbers of programs. The rest is too much detail.

System as the basic package that comes free with a commlink. Just roll your system rating for all the programs you bought. Add that as a equipment bonus to Atrib + Skill. Simple. You can have things over your system rating but not your response. Firewall is the same as system.

Hacking programs can be made into a single hacking equipment bonus. Pay karma for it based on the hacker spending time writing his own programs. Limit the bonus equal to their skill rating.

When they hack advanced systems roll a SOTA roll. Each success lowers the hacking bonus versus that system. Legwork ahead of time or slow hacking tests ahead of time can reduce this penalty.

Thats a simple way.

Okay in Raw you have Response as the primary limiter. Then System is limited by Response. Then you have programs limited by System.

I think of Response as being the CPU and the RAM. It is the thing that sets the top speed on things. They have said that System is the OS.

So if you get Windows you get a certain basic set of programs. Linux comes with a set of programs.

I think I understand what they are talking about with system being a limiter but I think that it is more of a hold over from the early evolution of Windows. By the 2070s I think that the basics will be worked out and you will just be getting smaller or larger packages based on what you buy. The company sells all the different versions but gives you more if you pay for more.

But if you get a better media player or browser or whatever then you have something better then what the system came with. This would be like having a system of 3 and a Browse Program of 4.

In order to make this work like it does in RL then you just remove the system as a limiter and just make Response the limiter.

So you can declare the common use programs as a part of the System. Then all your players have to do is write down the programs that are not common use or the ones that they have higher then their system.

If you want to keep Response as a way of limiting your programs then do so as normal.
Another option is to assume that the common use programs are not a drain on response and lower the limit on programs past that.
Another option is define certain programs as a major drain and certain programs as an incidental drain. Things like edit don't have an effect. Agents might drop the response one for one because they are so complex. Etc. Have different types of programs have different effects and then ignore the Response x whatever stuff. That would make it quicker to figure out and it would be a good way to keep agent use from getting out of hand.

I also moved subscription lists from the system rating to the program rating. The command program rating is the determining factor.

Don't worry about the Attribute + skill thing. It is a subject of several other threads.

I see what you're saying with limiting programs by response instead of limiting them by system, which is really just limiting them by response in 95% of cases anyway. Yeah, that's probably a good idea.

Including common use programs as part of system? Makes sense, but I'm already talking about giving those to everyone, so there's no real difference there. The only difference is your suggestion of not having them drop response. I shy away from that for 2 reasons. 1) It's not really realistic. Even if I just open Word, and WMP to watch a video, and everything else "common use" at once I'm still going to see significant slowdown. 2) That means every hacker is going to have several more applications running at once, which is going to have effects on game balance, and I'm trying to avoid that.

I don't like the idea of having different programs cause different amounts of response degradation. Again, that's moving pretty far away from the original rules, and to me it sounds a lot more complicated. I want less lists of things, not more.

Moving subscription lists from system to command is a very neat idea. It certainly makes sense with drones and stuff. It sounds a bit odd that you can't log on to a single webpage (which is, IIRC, an active subscription) without it, though.

Anyway, as a fix to my technomancer ideas above:
Fading is normally physical drain when the techno is gaining lots of dice, and stun when gaining only a few dice, relative to their Resonance.
As a rebalancer, for my proposed HR, when a techno threads they get extra dice equal to hits, as normal, but if that exceeds half resonance (rounded up) the drain will be physical. They can forego some of the successes rolled, if they got more than they wanted, to keep drain more manageable.
Otherwise, with my above rules, a techno who has a complex form can be rolling 6 dice more than normal without any physical drain (where as in the old system if a techno has a good rated CF they're taking physical drain if they raise it much at all).
This is probably the biggest deviation from core rules in terms of the effect it will have, but if threading drain weren't changed at all I think a techno threading a CF that they already have is much more powerful than the old system. It limits a techno threading a CF that they don't have a little bit more, but since they can still almost completely negate the -4 penalty for not having a program (assuming high resonance: 5ish) without taking physical drain, I think it's a good fix.


So I don't know. Only two people have found this worth responding to. I don't know if that's a very good sign, or a very bad one.

I think that it is probably because we have had a lot of threads about this (many of which were started by me ). Those that are most open to house rules about it are cetiah and myself at this point I think. Besides if everyone commented about it you would have to wade through pages and pages of people debating on IF you should change rules at all or why oh why are you taking their toys away, etc.

Smaller threads are often better.

So I have an idea that might help out or may cause more problems (who knows)

I had this in a different thread but I think part of this might be relavent here.

Commlinks and Computers
Commlinks are simplified into a few categories based on their rating. For the most part this rating and what that type of commlink can do are the only factors. There is no response rating. Signal rating is by type. The rating of the device is the system rating and the default for any programs. You don’t need to buy any programs either. The Firewall rating is by type.
Each level will have two ratings. The lower is the standard. The higher rating is for a high quality one.

Virgil (1-2) – This is a small commlink that fits on to your thumb and first finger. It comes with a set of contacts or glasses. It can project AR and work as a PDA, video cell phone, etc. You hold your hand and make a gun sign. A screen will appear in between your thumb and first finger. Video and audio pick ups on your hand cover your side of the conversation. You can see floating windows and all the normal aspects of AR. Most people have these. This comes with a Firewall 4 and Signal 2. .

Proteus (3-4) – This commlink is watch-sized and has several ports for accessing other devices. It can do VR and AR overlays. It is also powerful enough to run an infomorph such as a secretary program. Linguasofts can be run from a Proteus with no problem. You can use a Virgil with this or use a camera in the surface. This comes with Firewall 5 and Signal 3.

Specialized Computers (5-6) – This includes several types of computers that are too specialized for most consumers. Things like servers, Cyberdecks, and Vehicle Control Rigs. This is what most hackers build. They usually have a Firewall 6 and variable signal ratings.

High End Military or Megacorp Computers (7- – These have incredible power and are very hard to hack into. Most of the time they will only have one of these and the rest as servers. They can have rating 7-8 Firewalls and usually have no signal ratings as they are mostly hardwired and require direct access.

Basically this way you have a use for the lower level ones. Response ratings are nominalized but still there. You only have to write down the basic fact that you have a Proteus or a Virgil.

System came with Analyze, Browse, Command, Edit, Firewall, Media Player, and Scan if you needed to refer to specific programs. I understand that you may not need this part.

Response
This limits all the software on the computer to its rating. If the software is rated higher then the Response then it drops down to the Response rating. You can have programs with a rating higher then your System rating but not your Response rating.
You can run a number of programs, equal to the Response before the Response is lowered. For every Response number of programs you run you lower the Response by 1, beyond the Firewall and System programs. Agents are a resource drains. You can run one agent and one IC on your commlink, and they will count as programs each. After that every agent, pilot, or IC on your commlink drops the response by 1.

This simplifies the Response but also makes is so that the common use stuff is taken into acount in memory.

Then I had a Proteus have multiple chip jack / datajack ports. People kept their IDs on datachips. They could then hot swap them if they needed to. They weren't on the commlink itself so they were not easily hacked but could still be used quickly and then put away.

Any of that useful to you?

I like it but make darned sure programs still have to be loaded within the limits of Response and System to maintain balance. One of the major points of a bigger commlink isnt so much number of dice but a measure of your ability affect your world versus not being affected as much. Otherwise a hacker with edge or adept 'improved ability' reigns supreme from a CHEAPER rig his opponents will usually be limited in using.

Specifically if I can only have 12 programs loaded on a commlink with all ratings at 6 running a Reality Filter I have to pick a mix of utility and defense that doesnt exceed 12 programs total. Sure, thats an upper end scenario and if a enemy hacker crashes the Reality Filter I'm in a bad way but hey, even 12 is nice. Giving all programs for free and always loaded is uber.

Well I use a different system of hacking for my games. It is based most on thresholds then dice pools for most programs. Basically each program either creates a threshold or removes a threshold. Defensive programs usually create a threshold. Firewall for instance creates one. Exploit negates that threshold.

There is another threshold that is called security that I have as well. It is based on how security conscious the user is. This serves the function of a matrix perception test on the part of the user or system. A hacker has to spend part of his time always hiding what he is doing. They are also having to get around alot of passwords and tight security procedures to get their work done. This acts as a threshold on all of their actions when they are hacking. Basically if they roll below the security rating (1-4) plus whatever their exploit didn't supress of the firewall then each point of that acts as a automatic success for the system to perceive you. However your stealth hides the first "rating" of successes from the system.

Basically all of this is handled in a single roll by the hacker and the GM doens't have to roll:
Firewall supression
Exploit
Security on the part of the user
System Perception Tests
Stealth Test
Alarm Levels

Hacking can be covered in a few rolls this way.