Hey chums.
So I use a hit location system in my games. It's not perfect and it's certainly no more realistic but my players groove on it, so whatever. Problem is, SR canon seems to imply that sniper rifles hit harder than standard rifles due to their ability to place rounds in more vulnerable locations. Obviously that's not appropriate in a hit location-based system, so...
How to reflect the differences between a Remington 900 and a Ranger Arms SM-3, assuming they chamber the same caliber of ammunition?
I've been giving some thought to allowing more aiming actions with a sniper rifle, or just using a different range band, but neither of these seem a perfect solution. I'd be interested to hear what any of y'all have to say on the subject.
-Req
Full Version: Sniper vs Sporting rifles
Just my opinion, putting a bullet in a more vulenerable has nothing to do with the rifle used. True some weapons lend themselves to be more or less accurate, that really lies in the skill of the person using the weapon. You can give a sport rifle to a professional sharp shooter and given a the time to get the "feel" for it he'll hit right where he wants pretty much every time.
Give the sniper rifle to someone like me, well I'll probably hit center mass everytime, but if I need to do head shots well I still would like to think I could do very well but the truth is I don't have the skills a pro does.
What I am saying is weapons have very little to do with hitting vulenerable spots. So I would allow (which we do in our games) aimed shots, like you said aimed shots don't lend themselves to SR but I think it adds more to it then saying a rifle does it. Which will led to every one trying to get sniper rifles to gat an edge instead of etting better skill, shich is where the true edge lays.
Again this my opinion your milage may very.
Give the sniper rifle to someone like me, well I'll probably hit center mass everytime, but if I need to do head shots well I still would like to think I could do very well but the truth is I don't have the skills a pro does.
What I am saying is weapons have very little to do with hitting vulenerable spots. So I would allow (which we do in our games) aimed shots, like you said aimed shots don't lend themselves to SR but I think it adds more to it then saying a rifle does it. Which will led to every one trying to get sniper rifles to gat an edge instead of etting better skill, shich is where the true edge lays.
Again this my opinion your milage may very.
Yeah, I guess I wasn't very clear. I don't like the increased Power. I think two rifles in 7.62mm should do the same damage. Etc. So I'm interested in some way to reflect the differences between the "sniper" class and the "sport" class that are less arbitrary - I mean, if they're both SA weapons doing 9S, and one has availability 4 and the other one 12, something's wrong.
Does Raygun have anything on his page?
What I have been trying to do is convience my GM that sniper rifles should have a much better range. At least for the 121. I believe in real life sniper rifles use a more powerful shell to increase range and accuracy that a sport rifle doesn't. I maybe wrong but I think they should at least get a better range.
What I have been trying to do is convience my GM that sniper rifles should have a much better range. At least for the 121. I believe in real life sniper rifles use a more powerful shell to increase range and accuracy that a sport rifle doesn't. I maybe wrong but I think they should at least get a better range.
| QUOTE (Req) |
| How to reflect the differences between a Remington 900 and a Ranger Arms SM-3, assuming they chamber the same caliber of ammunition? |
But they don't. There's Sport Rifle ammunition, which covers a range between 7S and 9S, and then there's Sniper Rifle ammunition, which has a range between 14S and 16S. The two are noninterchangeable.
Remember, ammo is based on range catagory, not base skill. That's why you can't load your Predator rounds into your favourite Light Pistol.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 31 2003, 03:28 PM) |
| But they don't. There's Sport Rifle ammunition, which covers a range between 7S and 9S, and then there's Sniper Rifle ammunition, which has a range between 14S and 16S. The two are noninterchangeable. Remember, ammo is based on range catagory, not base skill. That's why you can't load your Predator rounds into your favourite Light Pistol. ~J |
But, see, to my knowledge that ain't necessarily the case. In the Really Real World, there are sporting rifles that chamber huge massive cartridges for hunting elephants or whatever, and there are sniper rifles that use good ol' 7.62mm. The whole concept of a SNIPER RIFLE as something different from any old rifle seems a bit arbitrary to me. I don't buy the "all light pistols share an ammo type" - the rule seems pretty asinine to me - and I don't use it. Yes, I'm aware that it's canon. I guess I should've specified that as well. This is one of those "apply reality to the game" issues.
Yeah, I've looked at Ray's page. He includes a sporting rifle that does 8D (.45-70 IIRC?) I believe, and sniper rifles as low as 9S in 7.62. Thing is, I have trouble believing that the "standard" sniper weapon - the only one presented in the main book - penetrates almost twice as well as a large-bore rifle weapon which already hits significantly harder than an assault rifle. It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm on crack. But I remember hearing some years ago (on the old Dumpshock I think) that the difference in range between those weapons comes from match-grade ammo, and the difference in power comes from more accurate placement.
And I'm not really interested in discussing the 121. It's clear that that monstrosity should hit a ton harder.
I'm sure part of it is that a longer barrel lets the bullet accelerate longer, thus leaving the gun with a higher muzzle velocity.
real world snipers and countersnipers (at least in the Air Force and yes we do have snipers in the Air Force) just simply use high modified Remingtons in most cases. Explosive ordinance disposial uses the Berretta only because of the range on it.
A "sniper" rifle is any rifle that a "sniper" would use. Most have bennifits of long range, accuracy (which is a combination of skill, weapon service and weapon type), dependabillity and portability.
A "sniper" rifle is any rifle that a "sniper" would use. Most have bennifits of long range, accuracy (which is a combination of skill, weapon service and weapon type), dependabillity and portability.
Req, what I've done with Sniper Rifles in my games (where I use both calibers and hit locations) is that I've simply given them very high ranges. For example, an average 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester bolt action hunting rifle might have ranges 100/250/500/750, while even a semi-automatic sniper rifle in the same caliber will easily have ranges 150/400/700/1000. In .338 Lapua, it's 125/350/700/1100 vs 150/500/1000/1500.
Under canon rules, that doesn't really mean anything else than 250 or 400 meters more range, since no self-respecting sniper would ever get serious modifiers from range. However, in my games, the base TNs even with Smart-2+RangeF+Magn3 at S/M/L/E are 2/3/4/5, with Scope3 (which doesn't stack with a Laser Sights) they are 4/4/5/6. This means that the TN to hit with a sniper rifle is, most of the time, 1 smaller than to hit with a sporting rifle under the same conditions.
If you wish to keep the changes to a minimum, but to still get rid of the damage difference, I don't know what to tell you. Allowing extra Take Aim actions, like you suggested yourself, might work. Or maybe just give them an additional -1 TN whenever Taking Aim with a SR. Whatever else you do, giving the weapons different range bands should also be on the agenda. I think ranges are the best way to demonstrate the inherent accuracy of a weapon.
You might of course decide that there really aren't any "Sniper Rifles" chambered in calibers weaker than .300 Winchester Magnum, and that in fact most are chambered in something like the .338 Lapua. Then you could make the RA SM-3 do more damage (with .338 Lapua, even the 14S is reasonable), and also have a far greater range (at least some 1200 meters, maybe up to 1500 meters).
Let's not get into the Barret 121, because it's VERY unclear what kind of caliber that's supposed to be chambered in.
For more about calibers and damages, see Raygun's Ammunition By Caliber and Firearms section, especially Sport Rifles and Sniper Rifles.
[Edit]Sniper rifles, on average, don't have much longer a barrel than sport rifles. Thus, they don't have significantly greater muzzle velocities on average. That is not the (main) reason why sniper rifles should have greater ranges in SR.
Easytohate is right about the weapons US Armed Forces mainly uses, and the fact that a sniper rifle is any rifle that a sniper snipes with. The name of the weapon is Barrett, though, not Beretta. Most US Armed Forces anti-personnel sniper rifles are chambered in 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester, a very common sporting rifle caliber, and a few in .300 Winchester Magnum, which is also a rather common sr caliber.
Here are the most common anti-personnel sniper rifles used by the US Armed Forces: The (now obsolete?) M21, the Army's M24 SWS and the Marine Corps' M40A1, not to forget the Navy SEAL's Knight's Armament SR-25/Mk 11 Mod 0.
[This msg really is a work-in-progress...]There seem to be a whole load of sniper rifles employed by US Armed Forces based on the Remington Model 700, and a majority of them are available in both 7.62x51 and .300WinMag, so it's really hard to tell exactly how many .300WinMag sniper rifles there are in the Armed Forces on the whole. They are certainly far less common than 7.62x51 rifles, but they are certainly there. The only .300WinMag weapon that is almost certainly used in large numbers is the Ramo M91A2, used by Navy (Special Operations Forces). Couldn't find more info this soon. Gotta wait 'til someone asks another question, so I can answer it...
Raygun! Get in here quick! I'm not good enough to handle all of this![Edit #6]Or not. Seems things calmed down now...[/Edit][/Edit]
Under canon rules, that doesn't really mean anything else than 250 or 400 meters more range, since no self-respecting sniper would ever get serious modifiers from range. However, in my games, the base TNs even with Smart-2+RangeF+Magn3 at S/M/L/E are 2/3/4/5, with Scope3 (which doesn't stack with a Laser Sights) they are 4/4/5/6. This means that the TN to hit with a sniper rifle is, most of the time, 1 smaller than to hit with a sporting rifle under the same conditions.
If you wish to keep the changes to a minimum, but to still get rid of the damage difference, I don't know what to tell you. Allowing extra Take Aim actions, like you suggested yourself, might work. Or maybe just give them an additional -1 TN whenever Taking Aim with a SR. Whatever else you do, giving the weapons different range bands should also be on the agenda. I think ranges are the best way to demonstrate the inherent accuracy of a weapon.
You might of course decide that there really aren't any "Sniper Rifles" chambered in calibers weaker than .300 Winchester Magnum, and that in fact most are chambered in something like the .338 Lapua. Then you could make the RA SM-3 do more damage (with .338 Lapua, even the 14S is reasonable), and also have a far greater range (at least some 1200 meters, maybe up to 1500 meters).
Let's not get into the Barret 121, because it's VERY unclear what kind of caliber that's supposed to be chambered in.
For more about calibers and damages, see Raygun's Ammunition By Caliber and Firearms section, especially Sport Rifles and Sniper Rifles.
[Edit]Sniper rifles, on average, don't have much longer a barrel than sport rifles. Thus, they don't have significantly greater muzzle velocities on average. That is not the (main) reason why sniper rifles should have greater ranges in SR.
Easytohate is right about the weapons US Armed Forces mainly uses, and the fact that a sniper rifle is any rifle that a sniper snipes with. The name of the weapon is Barrett, though, not Beretta. Most US Armed Forces anti-personnel sniper rifles are chambered in 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester, a very common sporting rifle caliber, and a few in .300 Winchester Magnum, which is also a rather common sr caliber.
Here are the most common anti-personnel sniper rifles used by the US Armed Forces: The (now obsolete?) M21, the Army's M24 SWS and the Marine Corps' M40A1, not to forget the Navy SEAL's Knight's Armament SR-25/Mk 11 Mod 0.
[This msg really is a work-in-progress...]There seem to be a whole load of sniper rifles employed by US Armed Forces based on the Remington Model 700, and a majority of them are available in both 7.62x51 and .300WinMag, so it's really hard to tell exactly how many .300WinMag sniper rifles there are in the Armed Forces on the whole. They are certainly far less common than 7.62x51 rifles, but they are certainly there. The only .300WinMag weapon that is almost certainly used in large numbers is the Ramo M91A2, used by Navy (Special Operations Forces). Couldn't find more info this soon. Gotta wait 'til someone asks another question, so I can answer it...
Raygun! Get in here quick! I'm not good enough to handle all of this![Edit #6]Or not. Seems things calmed down now...[/Edit][/Edit]
Indeed. Just because the odd hyperspecialized eight-foot sniper rifle exists doesn't mean they're all like that.
~J
~J
I agree somewhat that a sniper riffle is whatever you choose to snipe with, but not totally. There are plenty of riffles that are manufactured to be Sniper riffles, heres some of my favorites
PSG-1
and the awesome
MSG 90
as well as the venerable
Dragunov
these aren't hunting riffles. They weren't made to kill deer or elk. They were designed from the ground up to kill men and equipment.
Raygun could tell you better but often times the difference between a sniper riffle and a sport riffle is the ammo. Sure theres sport riffles that are mega powerful, but there the exception not the rule. I am not going to go into the specifics of ballistics because I am sure Raygun will be on any second to clarify the grain differences between a sport riffle and a sniper riffle. I just jumped on to let you know there are Sniper Riffles that are just that, and they are only that.
PSG-1
and the awesome
MSG 90
as well as the venerable
Dragunov
these aren't hunting riffles. They weren't made to kill deer or elk. They were designed from the ground up to kill men and equipment.
Raygun could tell you better but often times the difference between a sniper riffle and a sport riffle is the ammo. Sure theres sport riffles that are mega powerful, but there the exception not the rule. I am not going to go into the specifics of ballistics because I am sure Raygun will be on any second to clarify the grain differences between a sport riffle and a sniper riffle. I just jumped on to let you know there are Sniper Riffles that are just that, and they are only that.
| QUOTE |
| I just jumped on to let you know there are Sniper Riffles that are just that, and they are only that. |
You CAN hunt with a PSG1, or an MSG90, or an SVD. They are not "only" sniper rifles, you can do with them just about everything that you can with a sport rifle. Yes, they were designed to kill people (and, to a lesser extend, equipment). That doesn't mean they can't be used to kill deer, or just be fired as a hobby at a white piece of cardboard.
| QUOTE |
| Raygun could tell you better but often times the difference between a sniper riffle and a sport riffle is the ammo. Sure theres sport riffles that are mega powerful, but there the exception not the rule. |
Just like the mega powerful sniper rifles are exceptions to the rule. Like I said above, the overwhelming majority of anti-personnel sniper rifles used by armed forces world wide are chambered in rounds like the 7.62x51 and .300 Winchester Magnum, which are very common calibers in sporting rifles, too. More proof of this, that intro to sniper rifles makes it quite clear that large caliber (like .50BMG) sniper rifles are rare, and meant for very special purposes, like the Explosive Ordnance Disposal mentioned above, damaging expensive enemy equipment, or sniping people at very, very long ranges.
The sniper rifles meant for killing people under the range of 1,000 meters are most commonly chambered in 7.62x51 (or similar, like all the rifles you mentioned), .300WinMag or .338 Lapua Magnum. I think this is like the 10th time I say it, and I'm quite sure everyone got it the first time, but I like redundancy: Those are all as common in sporting rifles as they are in sniper rifles. Military sniper rifles generally lack weaker calibers than that, but make it up by having more 7.62x51's than sporting rifles have. Military sr's also lack calibers between .338Lapua and .50BMG, but make that up by having more .50BMG's than sporting rifles have (well, okay, a LOT more).
I've had a discussion with Raygun on potential sniper rifle calibers of the 2060s at least once before here on Dumpshock, and I think we concluded (ie. he concluded and I agreed) that larger calibers (like the .338 Lapua) will be more appealing because of trolls and orks, especially for law enforcement. For military sniping, standard military calibers will probably still reign supreme, because of logistic and standardization reasons, and because metahumans are far less common in the military.
But yeah, you're right that many weapons are designed to be sniper rifles, and called such by their manufacturers. But if you decide to hunt with it, it's a hunting rifle, no matter what H&K tries to tell you...
Oh, and here are some links for the PSG1 and MSG90 that might be more informative.
And I'm not even completely sure whether US Armed Forces call the M82A1 Barrett a sniper rifle or not. The official designation is SASR, or Special Application Scoped Rifle, opposed to e.g. the M24 SWS, Sniper Weapon System.
See, there we go. That's what I was talking about.
The range suggestion is a good one, and probably what I'll end up doing. Either that, or representing the higher cost and availability of sniper weapons in terms of integral accessories - for example it's unlikely your off-the-shelf Remington would have a flash suppressor, smartlink, and recoil augs, while a sniper rifle might. I'll probably have to lower the cost of some of the weapons too, 'cause there's rapidly becoming no reason to pay the extra several thousand for a weapon that ain't no better.
Thanks, AE. Any alternate suggestions are of course appreciated but this'll get me off to a start having thing laid out before this weekend's session and the inevitable Hot Sniper Action™.
-Req
The range suggestion is a good one, and probably what I'll end up doing. Either that, or representing the higher cost and availability of sniper weapons in terms of integral accessories - for example it's unlikely your off-the-shelf Remington would have a flash suppressor, smartlink, and recoil augs, while a sniper rifle might. I'll probably have to lower the cost of some of the weapons too, 'cause there's rapidly becoming no reason to pay the extra several thousand for a weapon that ain't no better.
Thanks, AE. Any alternate suggestions are of course appreciated but this'll get me off to a start having thing laid out before this weekend's session and the inevitable Hot Sniper Action™.
-Req
Keep in mind, the caliber of the BULLET is not the only thing to consider when talking about range and power.
Consider this, the M-16 uses what is essentially a .22 Caliber round. (5.56mm is 0.218897638 inches)
.22 Ammo Picture
Those bullets pictured can be used in rifles or handguns.
Take a look at this picture of 5.56mm ammo. Please note the size difference.
Here is a picture of 7.62mm Ammo.
Now, consider that ammunition also has differing grain in the powder.
Consider that sniper ammo has a different grain, longer casing, and quite possibly a larger caliber. Look at the differences in ammo between the differing handguns. Note that there are several differing configurations between that same exact size (exact same caliber, shell) that have differing bullet and grain configurations. Those differences are what make some bullets better at piercing armor, for instance.
Also, sniper rifles are designed to fire that ammunition specifically, taking into account the difference in grain, longer shell, etc. They are designed in a manner that lends to stability of fire and a more true bullet release and path. They are rifled different, and have a longer barrel.
To say that, because Sport and Sniper rifles may use the same caliber they should fire the same, is false.
Edit: and after reading the thread again, it seems that most of this had already been pointed out... I am always behind...
Consider this, the M-16 uses what is essentially a .22 Caliber round. (5.56mm is 0.218897638 inches)
.22 Ammo Picture
Those bullets pictured can be used in rifles or handguns.
Take a look at this picture of 5.56mm ammo. Please note the size difference.
Here is a picture of 7.62mm Ammo.
Now, consider that ammunition also has differing grain in the powder.
Consider that sniper ammo has a different grain, longer casing, and quite possibly a larger caliber. Look at the differences in ammo between the differing handguns. Note that there are several differing configurations between that same exact size (exact same caliber, shell) that have differing bullet and grain configurations. Those differences are what make some bullets better at piercing armor, for instance.
Also, sniper rifles are designed to fire that ammunition specifically, taking into account the difference in grain, longer shell, etc. They are designed in a manner that lends to stability of fire and a more true bullet release and path. They are rifled different, and have a longer barrel.
To say that, because Sport and Sniper rifles may use the same caliber they should fire the same, is false.
Edit: and after reading the thread again, it seems that most of this had already been pointed out... I am always behind...
Yeah, that's pretty clear from the difference between 7.62x51 and .300WinMag (7.62x67). Most people who use Ammo by Caliber and similar systems use 9S for 7.62x51, Raygun puts .300WinMag at 12S.
if you're already using house rules, simply change the "Sniper Rifles" heading to read "Anti-Materiel Rifles". voila.
| QUOTE |
| Consider this, the M-16 uses what is essentially a .22 Caliber round. (5.56mm is 0.218897638 inches) |
Having fired both, I'm well aware that .22 and .223 are very different rounds, despite the similarity in terms of overall bullet diameter.
| QUOTE |
| if you're already using house rules, simply change the "Sniper Rifles" heading to read "Anti-Materiel Rifles". voila. |
Again, what I'm saying is that the sniper rifles presented in SR actually AREN'T anti-materiel rifles. For example, look at the WA2100 from the Cannon Companion. It's pretty clear that it's heavily "inspired" from the current Walther WA2000 which fires 7.62x51. I wouldn't call it an anti-materiel rifle. And I don't see it likely that a weapon clearly based on this design would be rebuilt with a huge AMR round.
Anyway. We're just going to go ahead and drop the power on these guns to fit where I think they'd belong, with more reasonable ammo types.
I'm still not understanding your issues here, but that's ok. Have fun playing your game your way.
~J
~J
That's all right, I don't understand my issues either.
| QUOTE (Req) |
| Again, what I'm saying is that the sniper rifles presented in SR actually AREN'T anti-materiel rifles. For example, look at the WA2100 from the Cannon Companion. It's pretty clear that it's heavily "inspired" from the current Walther WA2000 which fires 7.62x51. I wouldn't call it an anti-materiel rifle. And I don't see it likely that a weapon clearly based on this design would be rebuilt with a huge AMR round. |
The WA2000 was designed for the .300 Winchester Magnum, which is significantly more powerful than the 7.62x51mm (by more than 1,400 fpe at top loadings). Later models were chambered for the 7.62x51mm and the 7.5x55mm Swiss, but as I understand it, the majority of the rifles built were chambered in .300 Win Mag.
| QUOTE |
| Anyway. We're just going to go ahead and drop the power on these guns to fit where I think they'd belong, with more reasonable ammo types. |
Like Aus mentioned, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to assume that most sniper rifles in the world of Shadowrun would use more powerful cartridges than the standards of today, especially considering the potential threats. Bigger beasts, bigger bullets. 300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua Mag, .338 Remington Ultra Mag, .408 Cheytac... in terms of power, all of those rounds fall somewhere between the standard 7.62x51mm and the bigger anti-matériel cartridges.
But if you're going to use cartridges and hit locations, you should also use different ranges. I have an adjusted range table at my site, though it doesn't really have a place that I consider quite right for something like the .300 Win Mag. I'd put cartridges of its ilk at about 1,250 meters extreme.
| QUOTE |
| The WA2000 was designed for the .300 Winchester Magnum, which is significantly more powerful than the 7.62x51mm (by more than 1,400 fpe at top loadings). Later models were chambered for the 7.62x51mm and the 7.5x55mm Swiss, but as I understand it, the majority of the rifles built were chambered in .300 Win Mag. |
Oops. Seem to have missed that. My bad.
I'm already adapting your range tables and stuff as well, Ray. I think the different range bands for accurized vs standard rifles ought to be enough of a difference between Sport and Sniper classes.
Alternate suggestion time:
In Warhammer Fantasy, they have a skill that's called "Strike to injure". The hit location in WHF is also random, but the 'strike to injure' skill allows the player to slightly change the odds of where they hit.
You said that you use a 'hit location' system (which is where all the problems come from, right?) - how about the sniper rifle allows the player to slightly alter where the bullet lands? I don't know how your system works, but shooting someone in the leg while they wear a security jacket is a good way of increasing the power of their shot by 5.
Alternate suggestion two:
You could also 'house rule' that sniper ammunition has been specially designed to hurt people (unlike other bullets, which you know, um, weren't, er). Anyway, you could give them an "after-shock" damage code. For example, if they hit the torso, they do the 9S damage - but the PC also takes a 6M-stun due to after-shock.
The "Alternity" gaming system has this 'aftershock' effect from their guns - to explain why people can be knocked out from being shot in the bullet-proof vest.
In Warhammer Fantasy, they have a skill that's called "Strike to injure". The hit location in WHF is also random, but the 'strike to injure' skill allows the player to slightly change the odds of where they hit.
You said that you use a 'hit location' system (which is where all the problems come from, right?) - how about the sniper rifle allows the player to slightly alter where the bullet lands? I don't know how your system works, but shooting someone in the leg while they wear a security jacket is a good way of increasing the power of their shot by 5.
Alternate suggestion two:
You could also 'house rule' that sniper ammunition has been specially designed to hurt people (unlike other bullets, which you know, um, weren't, er). Anyway, you could give them an "after-shock" damage code. For example, if they hit the torso, they do the 9S damage - but the PC also takes a 6M-stun due to after-shock.
The "Alternity" gaming system has this 'aftershock' effect from their guns - to explain why people can be knocked out from being shot in the bullet-proof vest.
I think it's pretty damn easy to explain why people can be knocked out from being shot in a vest that stopped the bullet, without any "aftershock". National Institute of Justice tests body armor so that in order to qualify as stopping a certain round, there is to be no more than a 44mm depression in the backing material (oil-based modeling clay block on which the armor vest is "worn"). So, to simulate what this might feel like, get some mate of yours to hit you in the stomach through some clothing with the blunt end of a pencil, so that it'll sink in almost 2". Or, if you're really HC, get him to hit you in the chest in the same manner.
Either suggestion of El Machinae's might work to make Sniper Rifles more, but not too much more, leathal than Sporting Rifles. But if the reason why you wish to use caliber-based damage codes and hit locations is realism, then they won't make much sense.
Either suggestion of El Machinae's might work to make Sniper Rifles more, but not too much more, leathal than Sporting Rifles. But if the reason why you wish to use caliber-based damage codes and hit locations is realism, then they won't make much sense.
It's also very possible that the people writing the numbers for hunting rifles and sniper rifles didn't appreciate the lack of fundamental difference between the two.
You _could_ argue that hunting rifles in 2060 use smaller caliber rounds, but expect to get giggled at. With critters like Piasma, I'm surprised there aren't more Barrets making the rounds on truck-rifle racks.
A bolt-action hunting rifle with a scope can be used just as easily on a person as a deer.
One fundamental difference between hunting rifles of today and dedicated "Sniper" rifles is the amount of work and craftsmanship that goes into the finished product and a price tag to match. Sniper rifles are tweaked, customized and put through tests that hunting rifles are not simply because while a hunting rifle should and needs to be accurate, it's not designed to perform at the same level.
Should that really constitute the power discrepancy in SR? Probably not. If you're not happy with the numbers as written, crank up the power as you see fit. Sniper rifles would receive a -1 TN bonus due to the quality of work, but that's just a suggestion on my part.
-Siege
You _could_ argue that hunting rifles in 2060 use smaller caliber rounds, but expect to get giggled at. With critters like Piasma, I'm surprised there aren't more Barrets making the rounds on truck-rifle racks.
A bolt-action hunting rifle with a scope can be used just as easily on a person as a deer.
One fundamental difference between hunting rifles of today and dedicated "Sniper" rifles is the amount of work and craftsmanship that goes into the finished product and a price tag to match. Sniper rifles are tweaked, customized and put through tests that hunting rifles are not simply because while a hunting rifle should and needs to be accurate, it's not designed to perform at the same level.
Should that really constitute the power discrepancy in SR? Probably not. If you're not happy with the numbers as written, crank up the power as you see fit. Sniper rifles would receive a -1 TN bonus due to the quality of work, but that's just a suggestion on my part.
-Siege
sniper rifles already get what amounts to a -1 TN, whenver they're fired at something that is a range category closer than it would be for a normal hunting rifle. just halve the power on your sniper rifles, and you'll be fine. the accuracy issue is already factored into the range table.
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