My group has been doing some immersion therapy with the magic rules in SR4, and we found a stumbling block. The rules seem to imply that a perceiving individual still needs astral combat to fight back against threats on the astral plane

Any input?

P. 184

Astral Combat
"Astrally perceiving and dual natured characters use their
Physical attributes and skills to fi ght opponents with a physical
body, and their Willpower + Astral Combat skill to fi ght wholly
astral entities."

Is thsi what you are asking about?

OK, I wasn't able to find that paragraph. Looks like the new guy was right.

Thanks!

Of course, if you have a weapon focus you can fight astral entities with your physical weapon skills. At least I am pretty sure you can.

The same with the killing hands adept power I believe....

I would assume that it still requires you to use astral combat + willpower even if you have a weapon focus or Killing Hands.

A mage carrying a foci into astral certainly won't be using blades in a world where mass and inertia don't mean anything near what the mean in the physical.

The reason you need astral combat is because you're opponent isn't bound by the same gravity/mass/inertia rules as a dual or physical opponent is, as a result you have to know how to handle that. The tool you use is secondary.

i might consider allowing the willpower based attack to work in the astral though, instead of having to use astral combat (note that you cannot default on astral combat, technically... which just seems wrong to me, but oh well).

this means that even if you don't invest in astral combat, you still aren't completely helpless. it also means mages can't just go ghoul hunting in the astral with near impunity.

in a world made up of mental energies, i would expect combat to not be so much about physical acts, but channeling ones inner mental strength towards the goal of hurting someone.

so in effect, astral combat can be a skill of focus and concentration. about how to best channel said energies.

I generally rule that Perceiving characters can use either their astral combat skill or relevant combat skill (unarmed, blades, etc) whichever they prefer at the time. However, Projecting characters always use astral combat even with a weapon foci.

Back in SR3, you could use normal melee combat skills if you were only astrally perceiving, not projecting, and I disagreed with the change in SR4. I would probably house rule it like Xenith.

Regardless, if spells like mana bolt are still ranged in the astral if you're only astral perceiving you're just asking to be brought down. Unless there are wards around or you're in tights spaces an enemy mage can come in at any range and any angle and zap you. If you're a mage you might have a chance to zap back, but a physad with a weapon focus is screwed.

In short make sure you keep yourselves covered with counterspell die.

If someone using astral perceiving can affect astral forms with willpower+physical combat skill then that means physical skill in a physical weapon somehow translates into skill in astral combat. A physical combat skill just isn't going to help you when trying to do damage to astral entities. Astral Combat is a whole new different type of combat. It is like the difference between using a sniper rifle versus a blade mechanically, but so much more. Think of Astral Combat as a different kind of weapon.

If what Xenith says is true, then there is no reason an astral projecting character shouldn't be able to use their blade skill in the astral as long as the weapon focus is a blade or they are using a weapon resembling a blade in their astral form. Also, what do you do about firearms. It is very obvious in the rules that there are no projectiles in the astral except for some rare magical cases. So that means I can do a willpower+pistols attack while I am astrally perceiving. Physical combat skills do not help at all in the astral.

The RAW seems to state pretty clearly that when you still occupy your meat (not projecting) but are astrally perceiving, you use your normal physical skills. I see this as being because while astrally perceiving you are effectively dual natured, and thus must move your body to move your astral reflection.

Astrally projecting is a completely different kettle of fish to just astrally perceiving.

edit:noticed that I'd actually failed to mention the use of weapons against spirits, despite actually intending to. Mundane weapons cannot affect spirits and astrally projecting mages, as they aren't actually present on the astral. Weapon Foci have an astral form, so can be used. I don't believe guns (even if a GM allows guns as weapon foci) can be used as the actual bullet being fired would still be mundane; and it would deactivate as soon as it left contact with the user. Ditto for bows.

EDIT: Removed due to talking bollocks.