I started a thread a few weeks ago about Drain and the Platelet Factory and it started an interesting dialogue. I also did a quick poll on how you all made your characters....

So I thought I would bring up another question I have a few basic Templates I use for characters I play. I personally dont like to min maxing but like to spread myself out almost to the point of uselessness. However, I wanted to share some of my minmaxed templates to see how wrong you think it is.



1st Template (I am broken!!!)
Adept, human
Agility 5
Reaction 5 (6)
Str4

Unarmed 6 (2) Specialty (martial arts)

2 - Increase Reflexes
.5 -Counterstrike Lvl 1
3 -Combat Sense Lvl 6
.5 -Critical Strike Lvl2

Dice to Block- 20 dice
Dice to hit after a block- Net hits +14
Base Dv 4

2nd template (Overcast it)
QuickHealer
Platelete Factory
Symbiotes2
Damage Comp 3
Power Foci 2

3rd template (864 meters per combat turn)
Magician
Magic 6
3 Bound spirits force six (manipulation)
Spell Levitate
Cast at Force 12- all 3 Spirits grant dice to aide casting the spell

Hits 12 Times Magic 6 =72 meters Per combat turn
But thats not Fast enough that plane might get away
Summon a force 12 air spirit and use movement

Heres the real question do you need the "flight" Skill like air spirits have?

What's broken about your counterpunching dude? He... counter punches people. What does he do when for example, his opponents decide to shoot him in the face instead? He apparently rolls 6 dice to dodge the first attack, and only five dice to dodge the second. If he's up against someone with an AK and a laser sight, he's looking down the barrel of probably a ~9 die attack pool (or worse) - and any hit is going to hand him 8P + net hits even if they are firing FMJ out of that thing.

Sure, in a boxing match you win against anything short of a great dragon, but so what? Against an opponent with even marginal cybernetics and an off-the-shelf weapon from an RUF pile-o-guns you don't even win.

-Frank

Actually that template still allows him to dodge....

12 dice to dodge not including a dodge skill is better than most.

Add in a Dodge skill of 4 and you have 16 dice to dodge....

It also allows him to move adding threshold and close the space

then the close combat happens.

Reread Combat Sense.

Actually, I know Combat Sense, I hadn't noticed that you had Combat Sense.

But yeah... you're still going down if someone shoots two bursts of AK bullets at your face, especially if they are shadowrunner quality. It's a build with Magic 6 and all it is is "pretty good" at killing people two at a time. Every round you can probably do a bunch of damage to someone every combat round.

But you won't even kill someone during any combat round. Yeah, you roll 14 dice plus an additional maybe 5 or 6 dice with your unarmed attacks - but your base DV is only 4. You're averaging 4.6 hits on the base dice pool and if you've successfully blocked an attack you're looking at an additional hit or two. Even best case scenario, you're only looking at a base DV of 4 and 7 hits. Then they roll their close combat defense dice (Reaction + Close Combat), and then their damage resistance test (Body + Armor). And if they can come up with a total of two hits on any of that, they don't take enough damage to take them out.

Compare and contrast some ExEX coming out of a Predator IV. Probably a much smaller dice pool, but the base DV is 7, and they fire twice a turn. And that's compatible with having Synaptic Booster II. A basic pistolier is a lot deadlier than an unarmed combat specialist, even this one.

Indeed, if you really wanted to rip people in half, I'd suggest finding something to sell so that you could have Critical Strike 6 - at least that way you'd do enough damage with your fist to rip a car in half like a Street Fighter bonus stage. Of course, even then I'm still going to put your character down as a secondary threat if there's CT in the room with an FN-HAR.

That's the basic plight of all melee specialists - people use guns because guns are awesome. They have a higher rate of fire and do more damage whether you have magic powers or not. You may be able to get your hands into areas where you can't get guns - but that's the reason you're doing this. Not because it's numerically impressive.

-Frank

Gun V. Fist

I am not saying that the template is better than a gun. I am saying that this template gives a hand to hand concept a fighting chance.


assuming that they have 3 points of recoil and Smartlink
+2

they most likey have an average of 13 total dice

they fire the first burst with no recoil modifers
at 13 dice

Template is running towards them dodging
+2

16 total

on second burst

the smg has a -1 for recoil

12dice

Template has a -2 15

Next phase
smg 13 dice
template 14dice
smg 11dice
template 12dice

next phase
smg 13 dice
template 13dice
smg 11
template 12


since i didnt add any modifiers for range we can either assume the combat turn is over or at some point the template is face to face with the smg.

I would have to say that they have more than a fighting chance.

As for a character with a 6 in magic....well I'll make another post on my theory on the special attributes on Edge, Magic and Resonance, because it'll get to long.

and the average on the base dice pool is much closer to 6 hits on the counterstrike itself. but you are correct on a plain old strike.

if you get creative such as using a touch attack (shock glove) and Called shot we are looking at a much different scenario.

First Template:

Any adept with Combat Sense of 6 will be tough, defensively. Kudos for realizing how well it combines with Counterstrike. But no Killing Hands? This character will be effective against mundane opposition, but much less so against spirits. For close combat builds, I almost always get either killing hands or a weapon focus (the latter adding 2 more dice to attacks).


Second Template:

The best at doing what is rarely an optimal tactic. If you need more successes, you are usually better off using Edge than overcasting.

Third Template:

That's a lot of summoning, along with overcasting a spell. It would have to be something pretty important for a character of mine to use such a risky tactic.


Overall, well thought out, but not game breaking, or even that cheesy. SR4 rewards hyper-specialization, as long as you don't overspend hard maxing for those last two dice or so. But there are also plenty of ways to challenge such characters, so they won't be invincible by any means.

man, comon guys. a ninja isnt built for straight up combat with fully prepared enemys. thats not what a ninja does. he would wait for the enemy to go to sleep or take off his helmate to chug a can of synthahol then he would stab the guy in the face. thats just what ninjas do, cus thats how they roll.

Ah, stabbing in the face is so un-stylish. Attack the enemy from behind and slit open his throat or even better: break his neck.
That said, you should think about Improved Skill.

But the real question is who would win: Ninjas or Pirates.

Discuss.

So it occurs to me this guys is not a Ninja, he is Remo Williams.

Dodging bullets until he gets into hand to hand range.

On a side note:

Am I interpreting it correctly to assume a character can get full dodge protection against all incoming attacks and only would have to give up half of his actions at worst?

As in the case:
Combat starts.
Someone shoots at Remo who declares full dodge as an interrupt action while he’s walking/running up to the shooter.
Remo’s action comes but he already used it on a full dodge, and he continues to get full dodge until his next action.
Meanwhile shots may or may not be incoming, but he’s still got the higher dice.
Then Remo’s second action comes up and he uses it to attack someone.
Then when the next incoming shot comes he again declares full dodge as an interrupt action and loses his next.
Etc.

Yep. Multiple IPs are good for more than just killing things faster. It's not quite as useful against enemies who also have multiple IPs. Keep in mind, though, that if "Remo" has Reaction: 5 (7) and Combat Pool: 6, he will be rolling 13 dice when he is not using full defense. That's plenty agains most normal grunts.

But you lose a die against every subsequent incoming attack, so your dodge could be worn out...

Toxic Mutant Ninja Zombies are always an option, too.

Right of course, but you loose all your actions that way, not just half.

What I'm curious about is if there reall is a time between when full dodge runs out and your next action begins. I think, and I don't have the exact wording handy, it is something like you get your full dodge until your next action.

So what is someone delaying an action looking for to trigger that point in time when your are after full dodge but before your next action.

Yeah, it's sort of metagaming. But so is trying to loose only half of yur actions for full dodge .

When the opponent delays his action until you act, you can either act or go full defensive. The point about metagaming was, the opponent doesn't actually know when the char is going to act.

DR: I think that there is a different part in the Full Defense description that has something about "an interrupt action" or some such, where you don't actually go on full defense as your action, but instead you can go on full defense whenever and it uses up your next action, whenever that may be.

My thought is then if you get to keep that defense all the way until you act again then on that next action you act. If after you act even if it is a split second then you just declare full defense as an interrupt action again.

Hence Full Defense 100% of the time and at most using half your actions.

You know, it doesn't really matter. If you sacrifice your next action for Full Defense, you add a skill rating to your defense pool, and then your actions don't refresh for an entire extra IP. Until your actions refresh, you are down 1 die on your defense pool per attack on you that has occurred since your last action.

So if you skip your action on the second IP, you'll be down 2 dice per opponent who shoots a bullet at you with each of their simple actions on the first IP over where you would have been had you simply taken your action on the second IP.

So if you are facing two guards, that's -4 dice and you're adding your Gymnastics skill. If you're facing three guards, that's -6 dice and you're adding your Gymnastics skill.

Sure it "works", it just doesn't work.

-Frank

Well, I considered what Frank said there. It would really be –4 dice for each opponent shooting at you since if they have as many or more IPs as you do they would get to go twice for every action you actually take while keeping your full defense bonus.

So I did some probability crunching. Take a Remo Williams adept. Give him 20 dice as a reasonable maximum for defense against incoming ranged attacks. That could be done a couple ways:

Reaction 6 natural + 1 for the increased reflexes power and say 2 for boosted reaction for 9 and he’s at his augmented maximum.
Dodge 5
Combat sense 6

That’s 9+5+6=20 dice pool for defending from a ranged attack while under full dodge.
If you don’t like the boosted reaction take a specialization in dodging bullets under reaction and you get the same thing. You could even do one better if you take the quality to allow your reaction to be one more. But I’ll assume 20 for a basic start.

Now, a group of guards (professionals, so Agility 4 and pistols 4, start shooting at him while he’s trying to advance into melee range.

The following table is the probability of being hit at least once based on the number of incoming bullets. (Losing one die for every incoming shot)

Okay, so consider the above as walking up to a group of veteran guards rather than general guards...

Or professional guards with smartlinks.

Wow someone actually included probability thats awesome you rock Kudo's. Good talk guys!

So over all opinions on the templates?

Id play it would you?

I'd be curious how much the numbers change from wide bursts.... that 8% would certainly climb. :-/