I'll caution you I have no experience with riggers in this edition. In previous editions my groups have all found riggers and drones to be too unbalancing increasing the lethality for games. My first impressions for SR4 was very simliar, but I haven't played with them yet. I strongly considered giving drones two actions instead of three, but I haven't played with it yet. I'm just putting that out as a caution. Would it be possible to play next weekend or won't everyone be ready that soon?

Assuming the dentist doesn't send us out for a dozen new adventures in doctorland, I should have at least one character ready. However, with three people completely new to the system, and two people caught up in the trials of the medical system, I don't think anyone on my side excepting myself will have a complete character, much less two, by this Saturday. My wife recommends next Saturday, which will give us more space to do things nice and proper.

We may have the house ready for a character building session this coming Sunday, even if most of the party isn't ready for actual gaming. Around what time would we be aiming for? The weekend after is Easter weekend, so we need to plan around the resurrection of our Lord Dunkehlzan and all that. So Saturday will probably be best, as Sunday I'm going to be returning to my wicked ways after 40 days of abstaining from computer games and beer. What time is good on Saturday? After that point, my life should, in theory, return to a more or less regular schedule, which means the house is open whenever is most convenient. Speaking on behalf of three of the players though, bedtime around 10:30 is common (a lot of morning birds, I know).

Are we aiming for biweekly or weekly? How long will the sessions be? The two friends who didn't show up for the meet vote biweekly.

My wife wants me to say she's likely to be regularly distracted during the games because of kids (who you met). I doubt it'll play that much of a role though.

In regards to food, in previous games we've tried both rotating who brings food and people just feeding themselves. We're on a tight food budget, so we probably won't order out, but everyone else is, of course, welcome to. If people bring food to share, my wife says she will make the base dinner and it'll work like potluck. If people want to take turns bringing food, that's an option, or if everyone just wants to eat beforehand, that too is fine.

Oh yes, probably should have mentioned this earlier, we have kitties and babies, so if anyone is allergic to either, that will be a um.. conflict. We can kick the kitties outside for the session, but you know how cats are.

How many additional people are we talking about? I thought it was just the ones who met at the diner. We could also do an intro run, nothing that would take long combined with a character building session. As long as people come with an idea of what they want to create I can help create characters. I just created a character this weekend and it only took about 30 minutes. But then again if you try creating hackers or riggers it would probably take considerably longer. If everyone only has one character for the first session that's fine. We could get an idea of what additional characters we need after that to round out the group.

I was thinking we could play Saturdays starting between two and four and we could finish around 10. I was aiming for either every other or every third week. Also, I talked to my brother in PA and he said he might be interested in coming down every now and then to play. I hope it would be okay with you. I can certainly vouch that my brother is relatively normal as shadowrun players go. I guess I'm just eager to get this started. If we can't start this weekend Easter weekend should work just as well. Let me know.

CerebralFix never got in touch with me, but I'm speaking on behalf of two interested players. So in total we should have 6, discounting the cats.

I'll pass on the suggested times. I personally don't have any problems with them.

The times sound alright. But I'm in agreement with nezumi, that if we have a session this weekend, we should make it a character building session. And then we can use Easter weekend to start the actual game.

I'm not sure I'll have any characters ready, I had an issue with my computer and have a pdf version of the book. But I'm up and running, but today wednesday and thursday are out of the question for making a character.

Nezumi: included in the six are: Wandering D, you, your wife, myself, and your two friends? or one friend and 6th's brother? Just wanting clarification.

The first one is correct, two friends. With Dragon's brother it would be 7.

Wow, that's a big group, but doable. One thing I haven't seen yet; is anyone planning on playing a hacker? From past experiences, that isn't a character type that is going to be necessary all of the time, but at least 85% of the runs will need one. Just a thought. It probably is a good idea to get together for a simple character building session because of the group size. Sat late afternoon/evening works better for me. My wife works from 4 to 10 so I can easily make it between those hours. I still don't have my Street Magic back yet, but I have an two copies of the main book (the original print and the collectors edition). I don't prefer to, but I could bring them both if there is a shortage of books.

I’ve been fooling with a bunch of character ideas including; a Druid(wild probaly) ork mage, an invisible way adapt, and an adapt hacker. My favorite so far is the Druid mage but my hacker is just about ready to go if we don’t have one. I’ve got a copy of 4th and a copy of Street I can bring.

I'll go ahead and make one. From what I've seen, it isn't too expensive, so he can still be a hacker and something else. So probably hacker and shaman.

Alright, so after Easter weekend we can do every other Saturday from 4-10? Will you still be able to make it this coming Sunday, or should we nix that and just go straight to a regular schedule?

I'm all for a character building session this weekend. Then starting next week.

I was thinking Saturdays. I usually have a very early morning on Mondays and would prefer to play Saturdays. Other than that we could always do a character building session this weekend for whoever shows up. Even if one or two people can't make it, I'm sure it will be worth it.

Like I said, THIS Saturday will be unavailable. Next one will be fine. We just have to know if this one Sunday is okay or not.

Related, looking through, SR4 seems to be short on mental flaws. What value would you give for things like amnesia, invisible friend, hallucinations, personality disorders, etc.? You know, the FUN flaws that GMs love.

I've brought up a character concept here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=17071&hl=

And would like your input, oh my GM, my GM.

Basically, what happens if a technomancer decides he prefers the hardware, and goes that direction, being both a technomancer and a hacker? What happens if his resonance goes to 0? Can it ever be brought up again?

Sorry, I must have missed the part about this saturday being unworkable for you. I don't think a Sunday afternoon character building session would be too much to ask. Then switch to saturdays.

As for personality based flaws. Yes, they were removed from SR4. Probably because they were taken advantage of too much. With small groups they are easier to keep track of, but they can be a challenge to enforce. If you don't role-play up to the flaw, the worst I can really do, as GM, is not give you karma for role-playing. Other than generally get pissed off and hold a grudge against you character . And it gets more and more difficult to keep track of them in larger groups. On a personal level, as a GM I was relieved when they were left out of SR4. However, several of my own characters that I converted from SR3 to SR4 had some of these flaws, and when I recreated them I didn't include the personality based flaws. With that said, I will consider then on a case by case basis, but I ask that you not make me consider too many of them because of the problems I have already mentioned, that of keeping track of them with larger groups and enforcing players to role-play the flaws.

You guys are killing me with parts of the rules I'm not use to. Technomancers I have not even read the rules for yet. No one in my PA group has even acknowledged their presence, therefore, you'll have to allow me to read through the rules when I have a chance. Riggers, I'm modestly familiar with. That is to say, that I've played with them in all previous editions, well two and three but not one, and have always thought them to be over-powered. I've read over them in SR4, but have yet to have a PC use them. So far, I've thrown a few drones against the parties as opposition, but I haven't had to try to maintain game balance by having one as a PC. At this point, I might reduce the actions a drone can take on it's own down to two, but allow a rigger who is directly jacked into a drone to continue receiving three actions.

I would say once magic or resonance is dropped to zero, the character becomes a burn-out and loses that set of abilities. At least in SR4 you don't risk losing magic or resonance if you take enough physical damage to drop the character like they did in previous editions.

yeah, you burn out

Alright, I'm going through this and putting stuff together. I do hope you're the sort of GM who is more into roleplaying than simulationist gaming, because I'm definitely making more of a character than a perfectly tuned and specialized set of numbers. Unfortunately, that means I'm coming up short in a lot of areas, and I suspect I'll be throwing 7-9 dice in my chosen areas of specialty oftentimes (and sometimes less).

That said, I've hit some issues that I'll need some guidance on (beyond the fact that I'll be a technomancer using a comm-link to do everything, and using normal hacking skills for the most part. That, BTW, is a very serious karma hole. I'm putting in the technomancer thing solely because I think it makes for an interesting and troubled character, but I'm blowing a lot of build-points to get abilities I really can't possibly use, especially when I have to learn many of the skills twice. Blah.)

Basically, I'd like to know the following:
1) How hard will it be to disarm things like electronic locks and the like with an electronics toolkit and 9 dice (before other modifiers)?
2) Where is the pacifist flaw?? That was an awesome flaw and they dropped it! How much would you be willing to give for that? It seems pretty severe, about on the order of combat paralysis (20) or perhaps a little less
3) I'm assuming there's a 'human poser' flaw which they just didn't bother mentioning, since there are elf and ork poser flaws, and both of those sub-groups suffer regular and heavy racism, while for the most part humans are considered 'normal'. I assumed it was 5bps. Is this a problem?
4) Do we need the firewall program, or is that just for hosts?
5) How hard is it to steal a vehicle? In SR3, with reasonable electronics b/r skill, it generally took about 15 minutes. Is that still the case? What else do I need to be wary of?

That's a lot of questions, but here goes.
1. Actually one of my current characters does this and it's not usually a problem, but you are limited to needing to be there in person, it generally is more difficult and time consuming, stuff like that.
2. Yeah, I kind of miss the pacifist flaw too. One of my characters that I re-created using SR4 rules had to drop this flaw. You can still role-play that aspect of a character, but you don't get build-points for it. Also, I started a thread a few months ago proposing a variant of the Combat Paralysis flaw that is -10 and affects you in your meat-body, but not astral space, matrix functions, or when jacked into a vehicle. Perfect for mages, rigger, and hackers who get the deer-in-the-headlights reaction to combat in the meatworld, but a top-notch in their area of expertise. There were two levels of pacifist from SR3, which did you want me to consider?
3. I've never heard of a "human poser" flaw and I don't really see that being appropriate. Simply put, humans are normal, whereas elves and orcs have developed a unique culture of their own. And humans who emulate that are looked down on by both races. There is a "human looking" edge for 5 points, but that's going to cost you instead of giving you points.
4. Firewalls are a necessity, but they come automatically with the Operating Systems. Check out pages 213, 215, and 319 of the main book. That's a program everyone would consider getting at a high rating because of the risks of being hacked. I would think the average person would get a decent rating because they don't want just anyone to have access to their bank records, or other personal information.
5. I've never had characters try to steal a car before. I'd think 15 minutes might work, but in shadowrun time there are more security cameras, matrix operated street grids, RFID tags and a million other ways for them to find the car again. Simply put, stealing a car might work in a pinch, but would generally not be a good idea to use for extended lengths of time if you are in a populated area.

In general, I encourage players to create characters they will have fun playing, but I prefer they create characters based more on concepts they will enjoy playing instead of basing a character concept on taking advantage of a loophole in the rules. I will always tailor the opposition so it will challenge the group as a whole. Remember role playing is not a contest to see who "wins". It's about having fun and creating a character that is more than just numbers on a page. I would certainly not go as far as to say that it's an artform or anything. With well rounded characters I generally take it a little easier on if they are in a tight spot, but am less forgiving with characters who omitted just about every useful skill in order to max out their combat skills. I'll have to read the section on Technomancers, but I'd probably let you get away with not learning the skills twice. We'll see, I'll probably read the rules tomorrow after I get home from work. I'll make up my mind then. We can always go over it more during the character building session if that's still on...

Let me clarify my firewall question;

There is a firewall rating that comes with the commlink. There is also apparently a firewall program listed separated in the book. Is the firewall program something I'd add onto my existing firewall, or is it something for hosts, like IC and the like?

I was going to take the total pacifist flaw; he cannot kill anything, even in self-defense. He will use non-deadly methods, or will run away. He doesn't consider agents or IC intelligent, however, and the one caveat is that he would be willing to kill anything which is objectively and demonstrably evil (Hitler is not objectively evil, nor a mad dog, it would have to be more evil than that, like a genuine devil or a horror. I bring this up because, with spirits and the like, such a creature is possible.) Go ahead and assign a point value if you think it's appropriate. As it stands, I'm having a very difficult time scraping up enough points to make a character who isn't completely incompetent. Right now he has almost no cyberware, no weapons skills, only half of the real hacking programs, no hacking skills beyond the skill group at 4, almost no skills beyond 4 in general... Kinda not so great Am I just having trouble going from making real professionals in SR3 to more "street level" in SR4?

The firewall program is an upgrade/replacement of what the commlink comes with.

I read the rules for Technomancers and I'm still considering them. At first I think they are underpowered, but with considerable room to grow. I'm not sure what prompted you to want to create a character who is a cross between a hacker and a technomancer. It certainly doesn't seem to be overpowering. My initial thought would be not to many you learn the skills twice, but Learning the technomancer equivalent of the skill would give you half the rating as a mundane equivalent of the same skill. I'd consider it a form of defaulting. Personally I think starting with a technomancer, by itself would be a little weaker than a full hacker. It's your character, and it should be interesting. Anyway, shoot me an email letting me know when and where to meet because I assume you don't want to post you address on the thread (I know I wouldn't).

Sorry folks but I’m not going to make it tonight.

However I did want to see what you all think of an idea I’ve been tossing around. It’s a magical tradition called “The Travelers”. There philosophy being magic is created from the tapestry of life and only by going out and fully experiencing all of its diversity can one grow in enlightenment. Founded in part off the bards and wandering sages of old they travel the land gathering as many stories and telling almost as many wherever they go. They believe heavily in the power of stories and patterns and there pantheon consists of spirits like the Ronan, Mystic, Bard, and Ambassador. They rarely stay in the same spot for long but on occasion one settles into a city for a few years and spends their time getting acquainted with the different subgroups within it before moving on. Mechanic wise I’d probably go with a drain attribute of intuition.

My character would be a journey man newly set free from his teacher in a city he’s never been to, with a few dollars in his pocket and the name of an old acquaintance of his teachers.

If that doesn’t work for you just let me know and I’ll go back to being a druid .

Well, since you have the magic book, I'll let you create your own tradition. But keep a couple of things in mind. First, if you create it, it's going to be rare, therefore very hard to find an initiatory group for, and your own description of the tradition would make it all the more unlikely. I do consider intuition drain based traditions to be at a considerable advantage, because intuition is probably the most useful attribute for a mage. Just let me know what spirits you want and what spell category as well. Otherwise your background sounds interesting. Not many of the characters so far are mages, so your character might be very needed. try to flesh out the tradition then send me the stats when you can. We will have our first session in two weeks on the 14th. That should give you enough time.

Why is intuition useful for a mage?

I'm still fine-tuning the character you saw on Sunday, switching points around here and there, you know how that goes. I am in the process of rereading the magic rules to create the mage character. That may take longer.

Question, in the spirit pacts, why do you have to spend BPs to get the pact where the spirit takes your body at night? That sounds like a disadvantage! Shouldn't the BPs spent on spirit pact be based on how useful the pact is, not on how powerful the spirit is?

intuition is used toward initiative, on both the physical and astral planes; whereas logic is used to cap the number of foci you can have active. I just find that more useful. I think there are other reasons, but it's still early nothing else comes to mind until I get my coffee.

Spirit pacts could be interesting if played right, but I don't get the impression the developers thought them all the way through. If you see one you want, I'd be willing to assign a different BP value plus or minus.

So I've posted the tradition idea I was fooling with at the below link. Thoughts and opinions are welcome.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=17199

The tradition looks good. I'll see you all tomorrow.

I'm running a bit late but should be their by 4:30, were still going 4-10 right?

2pm, but you already know that.

My mom informed us yesterday she's coming up from Guatemala for four days and is leaving on Sunday. As such, there is a bit of a scheduling conflict on my side. If Saturday 2pm is all we can do, I'll keep the game then, but if we can move it, that would make life a lot easier. I do apologize for any inconvenience.

How are the following alternate times?
Sunday 2pm
Saturday 4pm
Saturday 10am (don't keep to that one, I haven't checked that it's okay with OUR schedule yet, but I'm throwing it out there).

Sorry for the confusion. If none of the times are good, we'll stick with the normal one and I'll push other people around instead.

The Sunday time sounds good, but so does the 10am on Sat. Either would work well. This time I'll have less directa action and more of a investigative/problem solving run for you guys. I'll see how you do.

Well, I'm out of town this weekend, so none work for me

I could make Sunday but would need to leave by 10 at the latest.

Nezumi, so when are we getting together. I'd be right next to Wandering_D walking out the door at 10pm Sun if we did it then. My brother won't be there this time and without Dr_Dro that will leave us with a few less players, but that fits in well with my idea for the run. Anyway, let me know when we are playing...SOON.

We'll say Sunday at 1:30. Sorry about the craziness, Marc really needs to get his act together.

(This is Leah FYI)

I apologize for not making it Sunday, I wound up getting lost.

"Wandering" D with a traveler character? ;P It's alright, you were missed though.

Is everyone ready to play again this weekend? I'm thinking meeting around 2 again on Sat. Let me know if everyone can make it.

If everyone else is up to it, we can manage Saturday. Might be a little messy around here, but we can manage.

I won't be able to make it.

Apparently 6th Dragon called and cancelled the game for today

Yeah, sorry, there just wasn't enough people available. How about next weekend? I would prefer Sunday early afternoon, I could to Sat if that is better for everyone else.

This weekend is busy. The weekend after, Saturday at 2pm?

6th, you suggested next Sunday, thats the 10th, I didn't realize that, but I've got something planned for that afternoon, but Saturday the 9th is good for me.

actually, this coming weekend in general is bad for me.

Can I get some confirmation as to whether anyone but myself will be here this weekend? I need to know whether I need to tidy up or not.

As far as I know we are still on for Sunday, plan to start around 1pm. It's a shame Dr Dro can't make it, but we haven't gotten together for a couple of weeks now. See you then.

I'll have to double check. Last night I was commenting to my wife, thank goodness we don't have a game so I can tidy up! Our vacuum was in the shop and now we have no dumpsters in our apartment complex, so the house is a mess as a consequence.

As you know, Dro won't make it, no word from Wandering D down there. S&P will make it, but they must leave by 7, so it may be a short game. And as I said, the house will be a mess.

For future reference, I do appreciate the longer head's up time, since it gives me more time to prepare and make plans.

Game again this Sunday! Who is going to be able to make it? As an aside, this will likely be the last game at our house for some time. My parents are coming up in two weeks and after that we're hoping to move before the end of the year. I wasn't a very good host anyway though, so I doubt you'll be too upset.