Troll Weapon Rules - Super Size it please!
by Garrowolf

According to the standard rules, any weapon can be up sized for Trolls at a percentage of the base cost of the weapon. The issue is left at that. Unfortunately, any real consideration shows that idea to be quite absurd. Let us take a more silly consequence of this rule - Hold out pistols.

The point of a Hold Out Pistol is loss of impact at the exchange of concealability. Now we super size it for Trolls. There goes concealability. We get a huge handle with a tiny round. The weapon can't be manipulated by the Troll sized hands well even if it has a Troll sized trigger. Forget trying to load the bullets. Trolls have huge hands and reduced tactile sensitivity (a logical result of natural dermal armor). It would be like one of us trying to load a .22 with Space Suit gloves on. Okay so we have a clumsy weapon to be used in a life or death situation. Even someone with Troll intelligence will not likely own them. Therefore we have no market so no production. The same argument exists for light pistols.

Now let's think about this from an armorer's point of view. Here we have a limited market with unusual conditions but paying customers nonetheless and they are restricted in their purchase choices. Instead of modifying existing frames for thousands of guns it would be smarter to design a series of guns with Trolls in mind. It would be much more cost effective and it would please the customers more.

Okay so what is the difference in making a gun for a Troll then for a Human? Size and weight are the biggest factors. These have always been sticking points for armorers as they try and give as much bang for the buck but not weigh down the weapon so that it drags the aim or tires the user. This limiting factor opens up considerably for Troll weapons. This leads to caliber. Now you could build a pistol with each of the available calibers and let a bunch of Trolls come in a choose them. How often do you think the lower calibers would be picked? So we can ignore all of the smallest calibers from the beginning. Then we have to consider Troll strength. We can safely ignore any lighter and weaker metals and plastics. These things would have to be sturdy and have some punch.

Firearm Design and Customization rules changes
There are a complete set of Troll base firearms frames. The Metahuman Design option is dropped completely. Dwarves have no trouble holding standard weapons because they have larger hands for their size. All Troll firearm frames come with Melee Hardening and Barrel Extension automatically. They have increased power to reflect larger rounds being used. They also have larger standard clips. They FCU is larger to reflect the greater amount of space available. The Weight increase reflects the heavier metals used and the heavier balance and barrel needed for Troll hands. I have separated the automatic from the revolver because Trolls have developed an affinity to huge bore revolvers that are different enough to warrant a different frame listing.

Troll Automatic Pistol Frame
Power - 9
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA
Concealability - 3
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 20
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 2.5
DPV – 200

Troll Revolver Frame
Power - 11
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA
Concealability - 3
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 8
Ammo Load - Cylinder
Mounts - Top, and Under
FCU - 1
DPV - 180

Troll SMG Frame
Power - 7
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA/BF
Concealability - 3
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 40
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 2
DPV – 180

Troll Shotgun Frame
Power - 9
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA
Concealability - 2
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 15
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 2.5
DPV - 210

Troll Assault Rifle Frame
Power - 9
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA/BF/FA
Concealability - 1
Weight - 8
Ammo Cap - 60
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 3.5
DPV – 300

Troll Polearm Rifle Frame
Power - 9
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA/BF/FA
Concealability - N/A
Weight - 65
Ammo Cap - 60
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top
FCU - 2
DPV - 320
Has a Bat'telh mounted along the bottom (see below)

Heavy Weapons
Trolls can use all non-vehicle mounted weapons as portable. They can be modified for their hands and with hip braces and straps.

Troll Melee Weapons
Trolls have long discovered that it is fairly easy for them to pick up a large post or part of a car and bash their enemies. Sometimes the improvised weapon can't put up with their activities though. A long lost skill was resurrected to answer the need for heavy Troll melee weapons. Troll weapons tend to be very heavy and thick, many able to go right through a small vehicle. They don't go for the standard polearm design of a pole and a blade at the end because they end up in to close a range to use the blade too quickly. They use arms that are similar to bat'telhs and daiklaives and many fantasy designs that before now no one would be able to wield. The Troll Bat'telh is basically a weapon with a long bladed edge that is wielded similar to a Klingon Bat'telh no matter the specifics of the shape. The Daiklaives are huge oddly shaped swords that are wielded partially like swords and partially like axes. There is no chance to conceal either one. Only Trolls can wield Troll Melee Weapons. These weapons are not usually of the highest quality but they are made of modern alloys and are tough as shit. Parry is not an option unless you are augmented or an Ork or another Troll. Most strikes are likely to cause knockback. The rest just break you where you are. These weapons also tend to have an axe like edge to them as a sharper edge would not hold or work as well on the large metal objects they tend to hit with them.

Troll Bat'telh
Reach 2
Damage (STR + 2)D
Weight 60
Cost 900¥

Troll Daiklaive
Reach 3
Damage (STR + 3)D
Weight 60
Cost 900¥

Troll Axe
Reach 3
Damage (STR + 1)D
Weight 60
Cost 800¥

Game Balance
Now you may not like these rules because they make the Troll too powerful. Well, you don't have to use them if you don't want to. You can be a coward and run away from the big nasty thing or you can face it and be smart. FASA made the Troll that large and powerful. It's not my fault that they stopped thinking once they got to Troll sized weapons. I balance them with the fact that they are on inconvenient size and I still use racism as a factor. They are mainly big stupid thugs in my game with some of them rising above that. This is not just because they have an Int penalty but because the culture does not give them opportunities for education or advancement. Everyone thinks of them as big dumb brutes and so they act like that. I am very tired of gamemasters not even thinking about the consequences of the size and strength of Trolls. Personally a Troll Muey Tai Kick Boxer scares the piss out of me! How about an all Troll Go-Go gang! I would move!


Joten Arms - Troll scale weapons manufacturer
Joten Arms produces a series of weapons specifically designed for Trolls.

Joten Arms Thunderclap
Automatic pistol that has become the Troll Standard.
Conceal - 3 Ammo - 20c Mode - SA Damage - 9S Weight 5 Avail - 3/72 hrs Cost - 1000¥ St. Index - 1

Joten Arms Hammer - 9
Troll scale revolver
Conceal - 3 Ammo - 8cy Mode - SA Damage - 11S Weight 5 Avail - 3/72 hrs Cost - 900¥ St. Index - 1

Joten Arms Auroch
Huge automatic pistol with enlarged special clips.
Conceal - 2 Ammo - 40c Mode - SA Damage - 9S Weight 5 Avail - 3/4 days Cost - 1200¥ St. Index - 2

Joten Arms Titan 58
Troll scale SMG w/ laser sights
Conceal - 3 Ammo - 40c Mode - SA/BF Damage - 7S Weight 5 Avail - 4/72 hrs Cost - 1400¥ St. Index - 2.5

Joten Arms Foehammer
Troll scale Shotgun
Conceal - 2 Ammo - 15c Mode - SA Damage - 9S Weight 5 Avail - 3/4 days Cost - 1050¥ St. Index - 1

Joten Arms Boomstick
A new favorite - a combination of a combat shotgun and a underbarrel grenade launcher
Conceal - 0 Weight 7 Avail - 8/6 days Cost - 1200¥ St. Index - 2
Shotgun: Ammo - 15c Mode - SA/BF Damage - 9S
Grenade Launcher: Ammo - 8m Mode - SS Damage - grenade

Joten Arms Tempest
Troll scale Assault Rifle
Conceal - 0 Ammo - 60c Mode - SA/BF/FA Damage - 9S Weight 8 Avail - 8/72 hrs Cost - 1500¥ St. Index - 2

Joten Arms ThunderPike
Troll scale Assault Rifle with a Bat'leth mounted underneath.
Conceal - 0 Weight 65 Avail - 8/6 days Cost - 2200¥ St. Index - 2
Rifle: Ammo - 60c Mode - SA/BF/FA Damage - 9S RC4
Bat'leth: Reach 2 Damage - (Str+2)D

Wouldn't it be simpler to bump up the concealability of weapons when used by a troll? So a light pistol has the concealability of a hold-out (and therefore, in every way, serves as a hold-out except being, well, better), a heavy pistol now serves the light pistol role for a troll. The problem is that there are no BIGGER weapons, guns that require more strength to use than a human can muster. There's no 'troll heavy pistol', a super-heavy pistol, if you will. I've created one in my CP2020 'conversion', and I've modified it given your thread to make it more useful for trolls, since your idea makes sense.

So yeah, rather than make up new weapons design rules, which are very complex, increase concealability of all weapons by say +2, create the new weapons class, Very-Heavy Pistols (VHP). Everything else scales up fine, Assault rifles are a troll's SMG, LMGs are a troll's assault rifle, MMGs are a troll's LMG. HMG's are still unusuable. Similarly, assault cannons are a troll's rifle, and anything bigger is still unusuable.

On the subject of melee weapons... I could see making a set of weapons that have a minimum strength and size requirement. Not sure if I'd set them to D damage though, for balance sake, although you're right, they can't be hidden, so they're only useful in the barrens, and they're just as likely to come up in the hands of gangers as those of the PCs. An interesting idea. Would you mind terribly if I stole it?

As the mouse man said the troll size weapon thing was probably just to simplify matters.

Now, would it be more FUN to have this category of troll weapons which are all huge and overpowered? Hell yes, it would be FUN, but the FASA people probably didn't want to do it because of game balance issues, not wanting to have to make redundant metahuman copies of all the weapons already on the books, and not having to deal with giant Berzerk-anime style melee weapons with reaches of 3 and Dikote. I remember in the back of the SR2 rule book the authors didn't recommend powering up melee by 1 damage level or a certain amount of Power because "who wants to deal with a troll who can be oh so powerful in melee".

That being said, if we decided that we wanted to have fun with Troll largness and that we weren't going to be devastated if game balance shifted, if Trolls had a practical monopoly on melee combat, and if we had to write up and stat dozens of new weapons, sure, I agree, let's go ahead and make all kinds of fun troll weapons.

I mean, think about it this way. If a human wants to shoot you very very dead he might take a really long rifle chambered in .300 WinMag, .50 BMG, 12.7, or Lapua Magnum cartridges, lie prone with really good form, and put one round in your head from a kilometer away. But a troll is so big maybe he's actually big enough to handle a gigantic revolver in NATO 7.62 or something. And this giant revolver can be hidden under the Andre the Giant Holocaust Cloak that the troll is wearing. For the troll it's just a revolver so he can quickdraw it and then crack crack, your head has seriously just disappeared because he doubletapped you in the face with 7.62 rounds from 1 meter away. I mean, don't tell me that wouldn't be hilarious and fun.

A troll submachinegun could be chambered in 5.56 and could basically be more like a SAW from our perspective than a submachinegun. However, the troll is so big that he has no difficulty manipulating the SAW-like weapon with as much agility as a human could manipulate a submachine gun. Imagine having a teammate who had the agility of a SMG wielder but the firepower of a machine gun operator.

In fact, why should we stop at guns? Trolls are so large and so strong you could probably encase them in, like, modern day plate mail. Have most of the armor be spectra or whatever as per normal, but you could put hardened plates of vehicular armor on his chest and back, though, so that his vitals would pretty much be untouchable by small arms fire.

A troll hand grenade could be like a mortar shell.

I suppose you'd have to give trolls some weaknesses, as well, so that everyone wouldn't just always play as a troll. I'd consider giving a -1 TN bonus for shooting at a troll to reflect how he's a huge target. I'd also make it difficult for a troll to seek cover during a firefight. And armor and firepower nonwithstanding a troll should still be pretty dead if someone shoots him in the eye with a Barrett.

I wouldn't give trolls the armor bonus. While they're strong enough to carry heavier armor, they're bigger so they need to carry more. In general, the rule is the larger the animal, the less efficient a lifter it is, so bigger trolls are losing the fight and, if anything, would have to wear THINNER armor to keep at the same level of encumbrance as a smaller character. But the different is so minor, I don't think it's worth the book keeping.

The primary costs with being a troll are not combat-related, but related to just about everything else. Social penalties should be huge (haha). Not only are trolls ugly and stupid, but they're intimidating too. I wouldn't want them in any restaurant I eat at. Trolls should have serious penalties to sneaking, and heaven forbid they try to discretely climb through ventilation shafts or whatnot. Trolls really make pretty lousy runners, although in a merc campaign, they could more than carry their weight. And don't forget most buildings are made with 7-8' clearances, while trolls clock in at closer to 9'.

In other words, trolls are like vindicators. They're big, loud, impossible to hide, but if you need something dead... They do it well.

Actually I think that there is a -1 TN for shooting Trolls in the game already.

It's not new design rules - it's cannon companion. It's just a new template.

I give the Trolls a bonus to conceal but the base rating is there from the book system.

They are powerful yes but they are limited in other ways. I also use the hit location system I put up on another thread. It makes it plenty deadly all around.

My group always just kept troll-sized concealability the same. Yeah, there's more gun to hide, but there's more body and clothing to hide it around. Same with armor. They need more but can carry more, so we call it even. Even if it's not strictly canon, it's fair and simple. While there's no bonus for having huge, troll-sized rounds, there's no penalty for having huge, troll-sized weapons. There are no complaints since trolls get their bonuses (boni?) in other areas.

Just as a little reference bit on the side, in ED , there were troll swords that did to extra damage. Didn't put off the system any that I ever noticed. 'Course it was a different system.