Although I agree that the boost for the matrix to come from cyberware, I think that should be the rating of the datajack instead of an encephalon. I know it is a reflection of how prevalent datajacks are but they should really cost more. The more through put, the more dice you get, but decks should also have a rating ...and the lower of the two ratings would determine your init dice.

rating essence price
1 .1 2500
2 .2 5000
3 .5 15000
4 1 35000

If you want to be novahot ... you would defintely get more invasive wires to pay the price for your craft. I would submit that the encephalon could give you a reaction boost in the matrix.

Can someone please explain to me why there is only a +10 reaction limitation in the matrix? Think we can pull the lid off of this? Have subprocessors on the server that will give a comporable boost to IC so that PC's are not cake walking

Im going to add my support to the idea of an installed cyberlimb having a default str and qui of racial max. I mean it makes sense, your replacing puny flesh and bone with high tech alloys and mystery power sources. If you want to exceed that, sure, but its going to get vastly more expensive unless you get a full cyber torso to brace all that against. After a point what good is having biceps that look like cars parking, when every time you flex your tearing your pecks apart.

I also would like to see a reason for the obvious vs synthetic bit we have going on now. Obvious would perhaps be cheaper/stronger/faster, where as the synthetic would be the more expensive, but essence friendly choice (but have less ACU).

As for the Enecphalon, I remember it being substantially more badass in Sr2...

...I believe in addition to adding to task and hacking pool, it also increased intelligence by +1 at level 2 & +2 at level 3

Eyeless had the gist of that KK, since well they have been here for a super long time ...

but here is what is says

Huh, so it had a, what would that be, a limited skillwires set/knowsoft link in addition to the SR3 benefits? Hmm. Interesting, though to be frank I still think the Math SPU is cooler. And that, right there, is the problem: as it stands the Encephalon is basically a far more expensive and invasive version of the SPU, with a few minor benefits attached that aren't really all that great. I'm reminded of, well frankly like 90% of the magic items in D&D.

I think the sr3 version of the encephalon is well, stupid. and sr2 version is a little limited.

I think that it would allow you to multitask in a huge way. You can perform multiple operations at the same time. I was pretty sure that some actions in the matrix are exclusive actions (meaning nothing else could be done at the time) but ... I think the encephalon should be able to process these exclusive actions for you and allow you to perform other actions as required. i.e. not sure if it is exclusive or not, but decrypting a file..... if it was exclusive the encphalon can continue to crack it while you take on that pesky tar baby. it would not give you extra actions ... but it would process exclusive actions for you. the extra hacking pool is ok, although a math spu is better bang for the buck.

Heey, now there's an idea! Maybe the Encephalon can take over control of various monitored operations for you, without having to sacrifice the action(s)* necessary to maintain it. Each level, besides providing another point of Int for skill-learning purposes and the Task Pool, would take over another monitored operation for you. Or maybe two per level, with the max. Encephalon rating at 2? That way, cost would be the same as SR3 prices.

This way we can go with that tiered datajack idea above. I still think the first level should cost 1,000Y, just to underscore how easily available it is, but the rest should step up more quickly:

Hm, still thinking those prices don't scale well. Maybe...

I am fine with those essence and price costs .... I was expecting to hear everyone freak out at them. I suggested that once before ... about a year ago, and I am just getting over the nightmares and no longer cry myself to sleep.

I think that deckers don't really pay enough for their craft other than time.

Time and/or cash. But then, paying in Essence isn't such a big cost either, unless you plan on being a decker/mage.

Or a Decker/Samurai, or a Decker/Rigger, or really anything else but a Decker/Face. Lots of other archetypes use that sweet, sweet Essence.

~J, posting while half-conscious

Point. Well then Kag, what's your opinion on the proposed new Encephalon and levelled Datajack?

• One. The early Encephalon was Really powerful. If you had it, you could skip on getting a knowsoft, (you'd still need a skillwire system, if I recall correctly. Books in a different building and I'm not hauling a double wide typing paper box of books around, to cross-check at this time.) It added to Int, (which effects reaction, remember,) gave you limited Knowsoft ability, datasoft ability, and a task pool. (And if you believe Fastjack, allows you to multi-task.)
  
  Granted, a full point of essence JUST for a one point increase of Int seems absurd, but that quoted text came from a SR1 book, when muscle replacement was still a common choice.
  
  I don't recall the thing being able to partially replace the VCR, however.
  
  
• Two. I remember the variable datajacks. I don't know why they got rid of them. Probably because bandwidth rules made so much sense, but who wanted to sit and factor that into an already math-intensive dice-roll game.
  
  
• Three. In my mind, putting the datajacks close to where they were linked up was an early tech solution to the problem of laying wires. You're doing clerical work? Stick it in the temple. Fewer wires to lay, (with gene-tinkered bacteria guided by a magnetic hologram, remember.) Oh, a driver? Let's just stick it behind the ear so it's closer to the VCR processor. Now, with the cheapening of the tech, such that the expense of putting it anywhere you want would probably be trivial to the total cost of the datajack, I figure it's now more a matter of culture. Truckers and TBird pilots stick their jacks behind their ear so you know who they are. Everyone else goes with the temple solution. My opinion only.
  
  Of course, they do price the wire to run DNI linked gear elsewhere in the rules...
  
  
• Four. Something to remember about cyberware is...if the authors couldn't think of a criminal use for it, or one that appealed to the setting, (nightlife), they didn't write it in. SR1 and ShadowTech had gear just for rockers and reporters that was left out of later editions. Cybernetic control of an instrument for one, and a smartgun type cyberware for camera control for another. There is bound to be other cybernetic enhancements that never made the shadowfiles, just because they only made life easier for civilians, or livible for a tiny minority. Synthetic or bio-engineered pancreas's anyone? How about a cybernetic kidney?
  
  
• Five. Someone complained that some things cost essence out of proportion to how much brain connection it has. Essence was presented as being tied to how invasive the system was. Getting your bones electroplated is pretty invasive.
  Of course, we can all realize out of game that the real point is game balance.
  
  
• Five points. I better skip the rest. It'd just kill the thread to flood it with too much opinion at once. I don't want to do that.

Of course...I would like to propose one piece of overlooked cyberware. the DNI recessing datajack. Think, and it retracts out of sight. Perfect for those social circles where even a skullplug is considered uncouth, and you don't need a separate dongle to get use out of it. For game balance, it should be a bit more expensive than the induction model, (since with it, you can lose the dongle,) but probably not as much as actually sticking a datajack in a body cavity with a separate DNI tie-in.

Good luck,
Graiser

[edit: Replaced non-functioning HTML tags with equivalent BB tags. Then to clean up spacing, (I hope,) and clarify one bullet.]

1 it was ok ... but not really over balancing. Sure it allowed you access to knowsofts but you still have to have memory or a chipjack to run the thing, and it's not like a level 1 encephalon would allow you access to a rating 6 knowsofts.

The skillwires were for any related skill, where you required physical activity.

so you could design a car with build and repair ... but cannot perform an oil change as that would be an activesoft .

There was nothing about it replacing a VCR anywhere. (I think we were talking about it performing the exclusive actions that a rigger requires for him)

Variable datajacks only factored in I/O which as you said was more math, but I think tying response increases to the jack makes sense. more invasiveness for more speed.

Why get a cyber kidney, when they can grow you a new one. that was right from shadowtech. You could also get the nymphrytic screen which was cyberware that helped with filtering, also shadowtech. 1st ed.

The recessing jack is basically a subdermal jack. which is in the system.

flood flood flood .... keep posting more ideas, make for less rewrites later.

To stay slightly on topic here, do the Encephalon and tiered datajack look okay as is? Does anyone want to propose a different price? Let's put it to a vote, and if these changes work (along with the changes to initiative they imply) then we can move on to cyberlimbs and the VCR (though we should have a Vehicle thread for that too)

Going once? Going twice? Shall we move on to cyberlimbs?

I need to actually think about this one, so it may take a few more days but don't let that stop you from considering cyberlimbs.

~J

I also have to put off reviews of equipment. I'm sort of in the "treading water" stage, due to problems at home. But continue on and I'll get back to it.

This thread, and the other SR3R threads are being moved over to Community Projects. The original Shadowrun 3rd Revised thread will remain in the Shadowrun forum. They're getting quite a lot of traffic and are sticking to the top of the Shadowrun forum, but would be more appropriately placed in Community Projects.

From a gaming, dark-cyberpunk, standpoint, ignore what I'm about to say.
From a why-not standpoint...

I know why they aren't in the game, but if we developed ASSIST-interactive cyberlimbs and 'trode-rigs, SOMEONE would put the two together. Especially if there was some non-recoverable essence loss with installation.

Then fewer people would have permanent limbs, as they'd get a replacement cloned after the loss, and use a "loaner" in the meantime.

The only fix for this would be if cyberlimbs were superior than natural limbs in enough peoples minds. Either by being significantly cheaper, or providing significantly more capability. Additionally, if that capability wasn't typically non-threatening, a cyberlimb would be the mark of a criminal.
If the cyberlimb was typically cheaper than a flesh limb, it'd be a mark of the down and out.

With the above in mind, I'd recommend making cyberlimbs cheaper than flesh, period, making them inconceivably stylish, (in the pattern of many current fashions that are derived from a wrong-side-of-the-tracks subculture,) and making most additions for cyberlimbs free, including a free router and DNI hookups for what it contains.

Just food for thought.


Edit:
Assign some additional essence that a cyberlimb may act as a cost adjuster to. This could easily be based on the same ratio as enjoyed by cybereyes, (that is, that a cybereye will hold an additional number of mods of essence equal to some value.) Personally, I'd either go with a number that is less than the cost of the arm itself, or more, but with the proviso it usually only absorbs half the cost, not the whole thing, like smartgun links used to be.

Even if it were more, significantly more, enforcing the capacity unit rules introduced in SR3 SHOULD reduce too much twinking, but some elements should not fit anyway. Say anything over 2 essence automatically is brainware exclusive and can't be installed in a cyberlimb or torso, with only a price-reduction available with a cyberskull.

Nothing else to say about mental init boosting, and the encephalon bs. the tiered datajack? Okay, then, so back to cyberlimbs

Sounds good.

I'd go with the maxiumum unmodified limits for the given character, (6's for human), as the starting ability. The skeleton would probably adapt to the extra strength in a matter of weeks, within limits. As should the other musculature.

I suggest, if you go with your initial idea, giving some lesser kickback for metal-laced skeletons as well.

Remember, even if you CAN lift it with your arm, if you can't stand with it, you're stuck. It doesn't matter if your spine can take the abuse or not, at that point.

Good luck,

Graiser

My problem with the 'cyberlimbs have a natural strength of a bazillion, but software puts a cap on it' is that any he device amount of strength increases the cost and weight of a the arm in question. If we assume attributes are on a bell curve, less than 9% of the (human) population has a natural strength of 6 or above. So 92% of your customer base would prefer a cyberlimb centered around a strength of 4 or 5, which can then be toned down with software from there. Producing your Strength 5 cyberlimb reduces the cost of the arm and increases the ergonomics of it, without greatly reducing your customer base, so that should be 'standard'. Strength increases above that cost extra, since their modifications (but probably don't require essence costs for a good, long while).

Quickness is a different issue. Given how quick electronics are, I imagine a quickness of 6 is just as cheap as a quickness of 1 arm, so why bother making it anything less than 6 and using the software cap? The only real weak link is between the arm and the natural nervous system. The stronger the pathways, the quicker the arm.

So IMO, arms should have a strength/quickness of 5 by default. Strength additions go up to 4 levels, costing relatively little money and no essence. Past that the price goes up quickly unless you have a cybertorso to connect them to (and there's still the risk of breaking your legs or whatnot if you're trying to lift a car). Quickness additions... I don't know, I imagine they'd cost nuyen and essence for all levels, but don't require a cybertorso ever.

Thoughts?

In this case "quickness" means speed and precision of movement, which I certainly don't see being constant-cost over that range.

~J

Eh, maybe I'm just seeing artificial muscle as developing more quickly over the next 60 years, and the value of mass-producing the same high-power muscle over and over being better than having to custom-build even a few pieces.

Look at how microchips are made these days. Even though many brands are sold at several different speeds, they are all made in exactly the same process. In fact, the manufacturing process for a 2.4GHtz processor is EXACTLY THE SAME as a 2.8GHtz processor; they are literally the SAME CHIP! The only difference is that the 2.4 GHtz model isn't tested quite as rigorously, and the limiter it has in it reduces it to a lower default clock speed.

This, I imagine, is what cyberarm manufacture will be like in the 2060s. By then making muscles stronger than human will be so trivial it won't even be worth making something weaker, rather like how noone manufactures 486s anymore. Everything is made the same, and can run at the same high level, at least in theory, but the higher-priced, higher-Str/Qui models will just have a slightly higher QC standard--thus not taking as much potential damage when run harder--and have limiters built into them, limiters that can be bypassed

I can accept that about logic chips. I can't about hardware.
The way I see it is you might swap out the servos of your arm for beefier ones, or you might slap on some booster units that tie into the same control circuits.

They're right about the stronger arms weighing more. They might also tax the power distribution system more.

Since you can get equivalent, (at least I think so,) results from ganged smaller units, I don't see manufacturing the larger units, so much as making them more upgradable.

I like your idea of making essence-free upgrades cap higher.

Two things to consider.
One. You have two parallel nervous systems. One is dominant when you're at rest, (and allows for more precision.) One is dominant when you're scared, nervous, spooked, etc, (and generally is cruder in its control.) Supposedly, just tying into this existing system would allow even the most ridiculously overdeveloped cyberlimb to function with full fidelity in the range of conditions a natural limb would. Of course, spook the guy with the jumped-up cyberlegs and you might be prying him out of the ceiling tiles.

Two. Even if this weren't so. I can't see many people not having that software override DNI equipped, so they can call on the full potency when they are conciously aware of needing it. Need to lift a car? Deactivate override. Brace shoulder (so the back isn't doing the work, the arm is, working as a glorified jack.) Flex.

However. I do agree that speed should require better equipment. This doesn't have to be essence-intensive right from the start, however. The initial stages could be better interpretation software and hardware for what signals are already being fed to the arm. The latter stages would be when the person would need a wider bandwidth to the brain itself.
And as for reinforcing...I could see a guy with a superfast arm giving himself a cramp, or tearing a non-associated ligament, trying to use that arm at full speed. Imagine your pair of super-legs turning that corner as fast as you asked, and giving you whiplash as a result.

Perhaps just leave it as written, but raise the "racial maximums" for cyberware to something 2 points higher than unmodified. Anything over the new maximum needs additional work, (and essence) to pull off.

So a human can have that shiny new arm peaked out to 8,8,8, but to roll one stat up to 9, he has to pay more essence.

Edit. Oh. Also make sure those initial stats are racially adjusted. No sense in a troll getting a puny starter limb with initial stats at 4. They should be B6,Q3,S5, for instance.

I, on the other hand, think we should concentrate on how we want the gameplay to work, and then fill in the rules and the flavor text to fit. Frankly we have no idea what cyberlimbs will look like in 60+ years because according to SR game history we are about to have a number of technological revolutions, each of which entirely redefine how replacement limbs work and are created. First off we have the neural interface revolution, resulting in, by 2060, machines that can not only seamlessly interface with the human brain, but can in many cases improve it. Secondly, we have nanotechnology and biotechnology, both of which completely changes how things can be produced in ways we can't currently fathom.

Trying to second-guess how 2060's era cyberlimbs will work is about as vacuous as people in the 1940s trying to second-guess how computers will be manufactured and will work sixty years later. Hell, even twenty years ago Bill Gates was predicting that the Intel 80286 processor would provide more processing power than a person would ever need. Now we have cell phones with more processing power than a 286, and we've got quad-core P4s being created for end-user PCs.

I expect similar things to happen to cyberlimbs when future-age biotechnology and nanotechnology come to manufacturing. (Edit: bah, hit Post instead of Preview): By this I mean that I expect that the world of 2060 will quite certainly surprise us in what is not only possible, but economically viable, and we shouldn't limit ourselves to merely what we can reasonably project to happen with today's manufacturing paradigms.

If you agree with that, then it would actually be better if we reasoned from the top down, going from how we want to have the game function and fashioning flavor text to fit, than starting with out own preconceived notions about what tech in the 2060s will be like and attempting to fashion game mechanics based on these notions. For myself, speaking purely from a gamplay standpoint, I personally wouldn't want to have to deal with unbalanced attribute contributions from cyberlimbs unless I was willing to make the effort. This is why I'm proposing a system that doesn't force the player to deal with unequal attributes, for the players with cyberlimbs who don't bother to screw with the limb much, and even with those who do bother to screw with the limb, but only at the times when they're attempting to make that extra effort to actively turbocharge said limb.

Most of the time, it wouldn't matter.

If a person is picking up something with both limbs, and one is significantly stronger than the other, average the results. If a person is going out of their way to use their "master" hand, give it full benefit. If they're doing something that is typically a master hand activity, like holding a gun, give it full benefit.

As for flavor-text, I agree. However, the flavortext needs to make enough sense to the semi-informed that it doesn't break them out of their suspension of disbelief.

A good example is the old "ShadowTech" book. This book was written by a couple well-educated people, who knew nothing more of nano-technology than a name. They invented a class of bioengineered bacteria around this name, to do the task true autonomous nanotech would be put to.

A few years later, during a rewrite, this was corrected.

Ideally, the flavortext should follow the game design, but still sound plausible enough, as written, that people can accept it.

To that end, since cyberlimbs are supposed to be a core part of the game-world, and since cyberlimbs and natural replacement limbs cost such similar amounts, (with natural limbs being superior, as they don't consume essence,) there needs to be some "cool factor" to cyberlimbs such that people would get them electively. Starting out with stats higher than natural is one such way. "Cheap" access to higher stats, is similar. ("Cheap" in that you don't have to spend time in the gym acquiring/maintaining them.) Room for gadgets is naturally a third, but cyberlimb gadgets, collectively, have to be sufficiently non-threatening, with sufficient broad appeal that the guy with a tool tied into his arm isn't a freak.

Personally, I'm in agreement with Case, (the main character of William Gibsons "Neuromancer"), when he decried implanted wristwatches as a pointless alteration. Want a watch? Wear a watch. No benefit from having it welded to your bone. Thus, their has to be something extra-beneficial about implanting watches, or sensible, and practical, people won't bother with them.

Oh, and you want a reason for dropping the base quickness for a trolls cyberarm to three? Well, I did so, because the base quickness for a troll is 2, so 3 is 1+. A decent flavortext would point out the difference in the high-torque motors usually implanted in basic troll arms, and how you can get better, for a price.
No, I wasn't saying the limbs would be 4,4,4 on a human, but stick them on a troll, and they'd suddenly be 6,3,5. Rather, I figure all cyberlimbs need to be fitted to the user, and thus a troll would automatically get a troll arm. This troll arm would have a baseline of 6,3,5.
Actually, for non-synthetic, the frame would probably be crafted to order, or fabricated on sight, with the interface, power systems, and servos snapped in from standard stock. Synthetic would have to be customized or everyone would notice it. It would be the wrong color, even if only by a bit. I don't remember if the SR3 rules spoke of racial modification prices for cyberware, but I've just assumed all cyberware would be priced as if not.

I've just been catching up with all the posts on SR3R - very interesting indeed. Probably goes to show when I last checked in here

One thing that's really caught my imagination is the handling of reaction/initiative boosters and the conversation around that, the encephalon and how it relates to rigging and decking.

I like the idea of having the "mental" speed boost, which is then limited by the interface the deck/drone (or whatever), but I'm not entirely sure that it should come purely from the encephalon. I was also interested in how this interacts with something like wired reflexes, but then I realised that maybe the solution is to have a set of modules...

The first would be a "mental reaction boost" - this actually handles the speed increase. From there I can see a "rigging interface" - out through a datajack; a "decking interface" - again out through a datajack and a "physical interface" - to the body wiring. The body wiring, interface and brain component would equate to the same level WR as today; the brain component and rigging interface = VCR; the brain component itself replaces the response increase for a deck (although obviously the deck itself needs to have a correctly rated interface). In any case where the components are differently rated the lower rating applies.

I can see this working pretty well and allowing some great mix and match characters without breaking the existing system - after all WR is just a package deal on three components etc (exactly the same way as smartlinks were modularised without changing existing characters).

Obviously things such as the encephalon, chip/datajack (and potentially even skillwires) could interact with such a system as well. For some reason the idea of modular, multi-function, reusable cyberware components really excites me. I can see issues about how this would work in conjunction with other speed enhancers, but I guess they could be mostly resolved by simply making them mutually exclusive.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

So you're looking to take wired and break it into three components that can be installed as a group or as individual bits? Why not just take wired as the physical reaction bit and say the encephalon (or whatever piece of ware you care to name) is the mental bit?

If you're interested in breaking the VCR up into the vehicle interface and the mental boost, many people already play it that way. I know people who say the VCR only provide an initiative boost and decrease to vehicle test modifiers, but you still need a second datajack as an actual interface.

I think codifying things a little bit more and letting you mix and match, so a VCR plus an encephalon plus a datajack is better than some other combination would be a lot of fun, but by my reading, rather than scaling down the devices you've mentioned, I'd think they already were scaled down (wired doesn't increase mental initiative, VCR doesn't include the actual interface, etc.) The only change I can really imagine is breaking the VCR into TN modifiers and initiative boosts (which doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me). Thoughts?

I think we're looking at this the same way - I get the impression that you're looking for the encephalon to the be the "master controller" for this system, whereas for me it's just a component to interact with it (or, on reflection the speed-bonus module is a co-processor (like the Math SPU))

To clarify what I intended starting with the WR example - I'd split the current system in two components - brain and body - together (for WR2) they'd cost ~165k and use 3 essence. The body component is useless by itself (unless skillwires could take advantage...) and you could mix levels - the interaction happening at the lower of the two levels. The same brain component would form part of a VCR (with a "VCR adapter) and the matrix response boost (in conjunction with the "deck adapter".

That way, a rigger needs only add the "deck adapter" to his config to become a decker, which is cheaper and more essence friendly, but at the same time the VCR "package" he has is functionally identical to the core system VCR. The reaction/initiative increase comes from the speed module, the ability to use that in a vehicle, plus the TN benefit comes from the VCR adapter. In all cases, without an adapter/connector the speed module is almost useless, but it's the source of most of the bonuses and advantages!

Hopefully that makes more sense. I'll see if I can knock up a system diagram for it

The only real change happens for deckers - moving the response increase internally will require some essence that they currently wouldn't use, but that's maybe not a bad thing. One of the greatest benefits is the increased flexibility of the cyberware.

quick and dirty diagram

Any other opinions on how to deal with cyberlimb stats?

I'm also requesting proposals for an unbalanced strength system that doesn't suck. Not that I have evidence that one exists, but if you think you have one, I want to hear about it.

~J

What's wrong with them?
Here are the relevant rules from M&M & Cybertechnology for everyone's consideration.

Man & Machine

Cybertechnology

Proposal:

Cyberlimbs default to the user's natural Strength and Quickness. Enhancements will have three cost levels—one for improvements up to the Racial Modified Limit or natural attribute (whichever is higher), which will be very inexpensive and cost no Essence, one for improvements up to Racial Maximum, which will be relatively inexpensive but cost Essence, and one for improvements above Racial Maximum, which will cost more along the lines of current improvements (expensive, in other words). Exact prices will come soon. Increasing the natural attribute beyond the RML (and thus reducing the price of a previously-purchased enhancement) will enable a relatively low-cost adjustment by a cybertechnician that will free up the Essence hole that would not be spent had the limb been enhanced after the attribute increase.

The unbalanced rules may not be as bad as I thought, having given a few days of consideration to them. However, another issue now needs solving, since highly-cybered characters are now feasible: a simple divide between "cybered" and "uncybered" attribute for things like skill improvement no longer makes sense. Can a character with four cyberlimbs, a cybertorso, and a cyberskull be said to have a natural Strength or Quickness? How do we resolve this issue? One way might be by making the Cybertorso change the whole ballgame, but I'm not sure that's a good solution.

~J

For the purpose of skills, I would say that strength should be a function of averages (of only the appropriate limbs if necessary). For example, firing a gun is a function of the two arms, so having a quickness 9 arm and a quickness 4 arm would result in an average of 6 (13/2). Unarmed combat is a full body skill, so it would be based off all the limbs over 4 (do torsos and skulls even have strength?)

Alternatively, we may want to arrange it so skills are more impacted by the lowest limb. Fighting when you have a 'bum arm' (Strength of 1 while the rest of you is strength of 4) is significantly harder than just having a full body with strength of 3. Having a single cyberarm with a strength of 20 while the rest of your body is at 4 shouldn't seriously benefit your learning anything short of how to win the hammer game at the carnival.

There's skills, but there's also pool. Why would the Quickness of the muscles that a full borg doesn't have any more impact their Combat Pool more than their souped-up cyberlimbs?

For skills, at least, if it weren't for muscle aug we could just go with an average and not ruin the specialness of bioware. Unfortunately, the existence of muscle aug makes the skills and pool benefits very important as a differentiator—we could just throw it out, especially since that route can now be taken with a strength-auged cyberlimb, but I'd want to hear more opinions.

~J

But why would that still be true three, six, eighteen years down the line? And why doesn't it apply to Muscle Toner?

~J

I would divide attributes by 4. I don't see any significant reason why the torso or head should be included, and it makes the math a little neater (plus makes cyber less pricey).

I agree that pools should be an average of the limbs. Muscle aug simply applies to ALL limbs.