I'm trying to build a rigger/hacker who relies on a lynx for fire support. But then I thought, "What about stairs?" I had assumed that a lynx was on tracks while a doberman was a walker so the doberman would be the obvious choice. Less armor for more manuverability kind of thing. So I pull out rigger 3 and find them with wheels and tracks. Do most GMs just gloss over this with a wave of the hand or are people stuck with rotodrones and dalmations for places the verticly challenged drones can't get?
Similarly are things like the search and rescue walker adaptable to combat?
Full Version: Drone Propulsion
I agree that a clarification of propulsion method (Skillwise) would be nice to have for drones.
In the older books the Doberman was described as a tracked vehicle and it is still described as it in SR4.
The Steel Lynx was a bit of both since it had 4 legs with wheels on them and it could stand or crouch, I’m fairly certain it could lock it’s wheels and use the legs to go up stairs – the vehicles weight and design might be a problem in some stairs though.
My short p.o.v would be this:
Doberman: Groundcraft (Crawler)
Steel Lynx: Groundcraft (Crawler) / Anthroform (Quadruped)
MCT Fly-Spy: Aircraft (Rotary wing? / Tilt wing?)
In the older books the Doberman was described as a tracked vehicle and it is still described as it in SR4.
The Steel Lynx was a bit of both since it had 4 legs with wheels on them and it could stand or crouch, I’m fairly certain it could lock it’s wheels and use the legs to go up stairs – the vehicles weight and design might be a problem in some stairs though.
My short p.o.v would be this:
Doberman: Groundcraft (Crawler)
Steel Lynx: Groundcraft (Crawler) / Anthroform (Quadruped)
MCT Fly-Spy: Aircraft (Rotary wing? / Tilt wing?)
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| MCT Fly-Spy: Aircraft (Rotary wing? / Tilt wing?) |
Personally, I portray it as a robot dragonfly.
Alot of drones have half page pics in rigger 1, lynx has pic in fields of fire.
depending on the size, i would rule that a tracked vehicle could manage stairs.
in any event, you could just always use the elevator
in any event, you could just always use the elevator
I am also trying to build a rigger and am wondering what the difference between anthroform and ground craft is. Does anthroform only deal with biped drones or with any drone with legs? Or does the crawling doberman classify as a ground craft?
On a side note, are all guns shot through a drone (even while jumped in) handled using gunnery+agility or the specific gun skill? How does agility help a jumped in Rigger?
On a side note, are all guns shot through a drone (even while jumped in) handled using gunnery+agility or the specific gun skill? How does agility help a jumped in Rigger?
| QUOTE (nathanross) |
| I am also trying to build a rigger and am wondering what the difference between anthroform and ground craft is. Does anthroform only deal with biped drones or with any drone with legs? Or does the crawling doberman classify as a ground craft? On a side note, are all guns shot through a drone (even while jumped in) handled using gunnery+agility or the specific gun skill? How does agility help a jumped in Rigger? |
anthroform drones in SR4 are defined as drones with legs, and possibly arms. not really accurate use of the word "anthroform", but whatever. the kanmushi bug is, iirc, the only anthroform drone in the main book.
the doberman, as a tracked drone, is considered a groundcraft.
all guns mounted on a vehicle (including drone-mounted weapons) use the gunnery skill to fire, regardless of the fact that a rifle and a missile launcher have very little in common. when firing jumped in, you use the vehicle's response + gunnery skill, plus applicable bonuses (hotsim, control rig, specialisation, etc).
when firing from a remote controlled drone (note: this does not mean a drone which is being rigged remotely, it is a completely separate situation) you roll your command program + gunnery skill to shoot.
agility helps a jumped in rigger very little. i suppose if they had a sufficiently high agility and skill, their dice pool for performing agility based tests with their meatbody while jumped in would suck less, but as far as actually driving or using the vehicle in any way... agility does nothing for you.
| QUOTE (Prime Mover) |
| Alot of drones have half page pics in rigger 1, lynx has pic in fields of fire. |
You know, I think it would be really cool if someone important (Adam?) put all the old pictures up on the shadowrunrpg page. I understand why they had to be cut from the books, but there's all this fantastic old-edition artwork out there that has already been made, they already own, all they have to do it put it up on the web as a free resource for everyone. Wouldn't that be great?
Now someone tell me the long, boring, BS legal reason why that won't work.
Ok, so a lynx actually can handle stairs while a doberman probably can't. So what is the point of a doberman? That it is "equally effective during daytime or nighttime conditions"? Or that it comes with a clearsight 3?
So is pilot anthroform a largely useless skill? With one anthroform in SR4, and it looks like 3 walker drones in rigger 3 (but with rules to make your own) it looks like you can get by without it.
So is pilot anthroform a largely useless skill? With one anthroform in SR4, and it looks like 3 walker drones in rigger 3 (but with rules to make your own) it looks like you can get by without it.
| QUOTE (yoippari) |
| So is pilot anthroform a largely useless skill? |
That depends.
Most likely, there are more AFs to come in Arsenal, perhaps androids like the MCT Otomo.
On the other hand, depending on the reading, that skill allows you to ride.
| QUOTE (yoippari) |
| Ok, so a lynx actually can handle stairs while a doberman probably can't. So what is the point of a doberman? That it is "equally effective during daytime or nighttime conditions"? Or that it comes with a clearsight 3? So is pilot anthroform a largely useless skill? With one anthroform in SR4, and it looks like 3 walker drones in rigger 3 (but with rules to make your own) it looks like you can get by without it. |
i would actually suspect that a doberman could handle stairs quite easily. think of a tank, or a tracked construction vehicle. tracks would actually be pretty decent at handling stairs, imo, and would be faster than the lynx at doing so in fact (the lynx would basically have to walk up the stairs, which would be something it isn't particularly designed for).
anyways, the doberman has one other noteworthy advantage over the lynx: cost. it is significantly cheaper (60% of the cost), and thus when you might buy 3 lynxes, you would be able to buy 5 dobermans instead. (also, a drone has a hard time spotting metahumans... that clearsight program is important!)
How big is a doberman? I was picturing them to be roughly the size of a doberman (I was also picturing them with legs) and so tracks wouldn't be as tall as a lot of stairs, that might make it difficult to handle stairs.
I guess I just have a problem picturing drones, thinking they are going to resemble thier namesake more closely than they actually do.
What about riding a drone? Would that require a custom drone/vehicle or just strapping a seat on top of a lynx? I'm doing a dwarf for this for the added will and being able to ride on something the speed of a troll would be nice.
I guess I just have a problem picturing drones, thinking they are going to resemble thier namesake more closely than they actually do.
What about riding a drone? Would that require a custom drone/vehicle or just strapping a seat on top of a lynx? I'm doing a dwarf for this for the added will and being able to ride on something the speed of a troll would be nice.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| anyways, the doberman has one other noteworthy advantage over the lynx: cost. it is significantly cheaper (60% of the cost), and thus when you might buy 3 lynxes, you would be able to buy 5 dobermans instead. (also, a drone has a hard time spotting metahumans... that clearsight program is important!) |
Thats why any rigger worth his salt also factors in the cost of all the autosofts his drones are going to need and a better pilot (10,000Y for R4 chummer).
i figure a doberman is the size of a large dog, give or take. and by large dog, i mean great dane, st. bernard, etc... which, iirc, is larger than an actual doberman. the steel lynx, with a body of 4, is roughly equivalent to the body of a motorcycle, iirc, and i personally tend to use that as a rough measurement.
in any event, track heigh isn't the concern, necessarily. as long as the tracks can extend from one stair to the next, and can get a good enough grip (and i see no reason the tracks wouldn't be made from something like rubber, which should generate lots of friction, and allow the track to 'climb' at first, until it just uses it's tread to drive over the stairs)
as far as riding a drone, it would be possible. most drones aren't built for riding, but you do realise that almost any vehicle (anything with a pilot rating) can be used as a drone, right? (you can't rig them, of course, but you can certainly give them commands, and arguably even remote control them). so, for example, ask your GM if you can have a drone with the stats of one of the motorcycles, only shaped more like a dune buggy or go-cart. honestly, at most i could see minor penalties to handling... and it's probably cheaper than modifying a drone to be rideable (especially if you intend to ride while in hotsim, and your body is like a ragdoll....)
in any event, track heigh isn't the concern, necessarily. as long as the tracks can extend from one stair to the next, and can get a good enough grip (and i see no reason the tracks wouldn't be made from something like rubber, which should generate lots of friction, and allow the track to 'climb' at first, until it just uses it's tread to drive over the stairs)
as far as riding a drone, it would be possible. most drones aren't built for riding, but you do realise that almost any vehicle (anything with a pilot rating) can be used as a drone, right? (you can't rig them, of course, but you can certainly give them commands, and arguably even remote control them). so, for example, ask your GM if you can have a drone with the stats of one of the motorcycles, only shaped more like a dune buggy or go-cart. honestly, at most i could see minor penalties to handling... and it's probably cheaper than modifying a drone to be rideable (especially if you intend to ride while in hotsim, and your body is like a ragdoll....)
| QUOTE (nathanross) | ||
Thats why any rigger worth his salt also factors in the cost of all the autosofts his drones are going to need and a better pilot (10,000Y for R4 chummer). |
program costs are negligible. you buy them once, and spread them around. the doberman's built-in programs are only of interest to a legitimate user who isn't going to hack copy protection, which is the viewpoint i was acting from when i observed the benefits of having that clearsight program.
response 4 is actually free with both the doberman and the steel lynx - see the FAQ for details (and did you mean response 5 costs 10,000 by any chance?). you would have to buy a rating 4 pilot with either, however, which is a cost of 10,000 iirc... but 10,000 spread out between every drone you buy between now and the coming of the horrors... just like the costs of all the autosofts you'd need, it rapidly becomes negligible as you buy more and more drones, since you basically only need to buy it once. (or, for that matter, steal it once, from a corp facility that uses drones for defense... which is also a great place to obtain new drones in general
)| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| program costs are negligible. you buy them once, and spread them around. the doberman's built-in programs are only of interest to a legitimate user who isn't going to hack copy protection, which is the viewpoint i was acting from when i observed the benefits of having that clearsight program. response 4 is actually free with both the doberman and the steel lynx - see the FAQ for details (and did you mean response 5 costs 10,000 by any chance?). you would have to buy a rating 4 pilot with either, however, which is a cost of 10,000 iirc... but 10,000 spread out between every drone you buy between now and the coming of the horrors... just like the costs of all the autosofts you'd need, it rapidly becomes negligible as you buy more and more drones, since you basically only need to buy it once. (or, for that matter, steal it once, from a corp facility that uses drones for defense... which is also a great place to obtain new drones in general biggrin.gif ) |
WHAT?!?!?!??!
Okay, calm down, this is a good thing. But where? Where are the rules saying Pilot and Autosofts are copyable (the 10,000 I was speaking of was Pilot)? Its hard enought to handle all the weird rigger (but not really rigger) rules and now I only have to pay for Pilot and only 5 autosofts ONCE?
Please someone help
(page numbers please?)
hmm... I can picture a rigger working late putting together a "dune buggy" with a detachable lmg turret on top with some light armor plating that fully encloses the pilot with a modified lynx brain (rigger being a hacker and all). The problem is using the same vehicle on runs. Any where they have to enter a building, and the uniquness could be a problem.
Crap, I'm getting back into my over customization mode now.
Ok, so the body 4 vehicle is a scooter. I think I would equate that to be the same as a go-kart. And wouldn't a rigger adaptation allow you to rig them just like a drone? I guess what I'm really looking for is the classic(?) roadmaster rigger's HQ but in a single passanger "pod" kind of design.
I haven't run any of this by my gm who has likely seen this thread already so in case you are there, I'm just exploring options for now.
Crap, I'm getting back into my over customization mode now.
Ok, so the body 4 vehicle is a scooter. I think I would equate that to be the same as a go-kart. And wouldn't a rigger adaptation allow you to rig them just like a drone? I guess what I'm really looking for is the classic(?) roadmaster rigger's HQ but in a single passanger "pod" kind of design.
I haven't run any of this by my gm who has likely seen this thread already so in case you are there, I'm just exploring options for now.
Only if you have infinite time to break copy protection before actually playing.
Jaid is referring to page 228, Source Code and Piracy
Jaid is referring to page 228, Source Code and Piracy
Wouldn't the pilot only be copied for the same type of drone? A Pilot rating for a Doberman is completely different than a Pilot rating for a Fly-Spy.
I know that maneuver is dependant on the drone type and targeting is weapon dependant. I'm not sure if pilot is drone type dependant or not. So having multiple identical drones is usefull for that. Clearsoft, EWar, and Defense only need to be bought once, same with firewall.
AFAIK, in the last few editions and rigger books, the doberman had 6 wheels, and the lynx had tracks.
| QUOTE |
| How big is a doberman? I was picturing them to be roughly the size of a doberman (I was also picturing them with legs) and so tracks wouldn't be as tall as a lot of stairs, that might make it difficult to handle stairs. |
about the size of a push lawnmower. you could probably fit it through a standard single door.
as for the lynx, the only thing that stops that is another lynx.
millspec is awesome like that.
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| Wouldn't the pilot only be copied for the same type of drone? A Pilot rating for a Doberman is completely different than a Pilot rating for a Fly-Spy. |
Despite what the FAQ suggests, by RAW, Pilot is generic and the only vehicle-specific software is Maneuver.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| Only if you have infinite time to break copy protection before actually playing. Jaid is referring to page 228, Source Code and Piracy |
if by "infinite time" you mean "a few hours, assuming you're even remotely competent" or "a few hours of an agent's time, if you're unable to do it yourself" then you got that right...
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| Wouldn't the pilot only be copied for the same type of drone? A Pilot rating for a Doberman is completely different than a Pilot rating for a Fly-Spy. |
I’ve ruled that the pilot program by itself is generic – it’s the ”Decision making” part of the drone. The Autosoft is the actual skill and is needed in order for the pilot to be able to control a vehicle.
If a skill allows for defaulting then I allow drones to be controlled by the pilot at a -1D6 to Dicepool, yes, this means that rating 1 pilots will probably fail any unusual maneuvers. A pilot program in an airplane without the “Aircraft” Maneuver Autosoft will not be able to get off the ground, it lacks the information in how to control the vehicle.
| QUOTE (yoippari) |
| I know that maneuver is dependant on the drone type and targeting is weapon dependant. I'm not sure if pilot is drone type dependant or not. So having multiple identical drones is usefull for that. Clearsoft, EWar, and Defense only need to be bought once, same with firewall. |
I work with all the drone programs are drone specific, and have to be bought for each type (then probably copied for any other drone of the same type).
A Lynx will not use the same Clearsoft as a Fly-spy, different sensor set, and different blind spots.
Again, a Lynx will not manoeuver like a Fly-spy, so defense software will be different, as well as what it perceives as a threat.
And so on.
We've houseruled that commercial Pilots are typically 80% hardware and 20% software. It's generally much easier to get performance out of dedicated circuitry than to use software on general purpose circuitry. Which means that a) Pilots cannot be copied but they can be transplanted. Since a pilot upgrade usually requires a Response increase, aftermarket upgrades are generally a combo.
Shadow-upgrades combine general purpose hardware with lots of software.
Shadow-upgrades combine general purpose hardware with lots of software.
For the program dependancies I'm just going by what the bbb lists as specific to drone types. The only two that specificly say they are different for each drone/weapon type are the maneuver and targeting autosofts. Not that it can't be interpreted differently..
Re: autosofts. Would it be possible to do something like putting dalmation thrusters on a doberman or lynx? Dalmation is large so the thrusters even with the extra systems required should be able to lift a dalmation. However would that now require a custom written manuver to be able to use the movement systems interchangeably?
Re: autosofts. Would it be possible to do something like putting dalmation thrusters on a doberman or lynx? Dalmation is large so the thrusters even with the extra systems required should be able to lift a dalmation. However would that now require a custom written manuver to be able to use the movement systems interchangeably?
| QUOTE (yoippari) |
| Re: autosofts. Would it be possible to do something like putting dalmation thrusters on a doberman or lynx? Dalmation is large so the thrusters even with the extra systems required should be able to lift a dalmation. However would that now require a custom written manuver to be able to use the movement systems interchangeably? |
Sounds cool.
Unofficially, I'd think that you wouldn't need any special autosofts, but you would use two maneuver softs, one for each mode of operation.
This is definitely a check-with-your-GM type issue, though.
Since someone mentioned the look of the Steel Lynx, I stole this from another thread
http://www.geocities.com/samaelsghost/lynx.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/samaelsghost/lynx.jpg
The Coffee Table!! Now I can see where the coffee table descritption comes from. I like that lynx pic.
I'm actually using that Lynx pic for my MSN work icon.
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