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Aaron
So, in Really Old Shadowrun, anybody could contract HMHVV and become a vampire, even metahumans. Neato.

In the Third Edition Critters book, it states that "vampires are humans and metahumans infected with HMHVV." Gotcha.

In the Fourth Edition Critters section, it states that "vampires are humans infected with HMHVV." Hm. That's weird. So which way is it? If I had, say, a troll with HMHVV, will she always become a Dzoo-noo-qua, or might she just become a regular ol' vampire troll?

It's possible that the Sixth World Wiki has the best reconciliation, stating that "Humans, and in extremely rare cases, other metatypes, become Vampires." (italics added)

Does anybody have anything canon on this? Or just a well-founded opinion?
Jaid
iirc, the 'strain' of 'HMHVV' that creates vampires will always create banshees when it affects elves, dzoo-noo-qua when it affects trolls, wendigos when it affects orks, etc. of course, this is shadowrun, and nothing is 100% certain, and after all that elf could *theoretically* become a normal vampire (more or less anything awakened has variations to it), but generally speaking... i would assume that when they say something like "HMHVV creates vampires", they mean vampires as in creatures which drain essence, not necessarily vampires meaning the specific type of HMHVV infected creature.

of course, like i said, it's hard to be certain of anything in the sixth world...
nathanross
I believe vampires are all originally human. I kind of forget the exact species, but I know elves become banshees (my first character became a creature of the night). Give me some time with critters and Ill be back with the list.

One note to make however, is Nosferatu. In all the books Ive read, only humans can contract this strain and survive, however, it is hinted in "The Vampire Conspiracy" in the original Threats book, that some other metatypes have survived the transformation.
Patrick Goodman
Damn, but I want to get Running Wild back on the schedule....
fistandantilus4.0
You and me both. Nice to see you Patrick.

Someone refresh my memory. Who/what was that elf that needed to have a specific bloodline in one of the novels? Was he one of these "rare other metatypes" vampires, or was he a nosferatu?
Malicant
He was a Nosferatu, if I remember correctly. And he needed a special bloodline for the protagonist to track him down to his Evil Castle thingy. biggrin.gif

Novels don't need to fit into rules, this ain't D&D, yet wink.gif
Pthgar
Meh, I stick with the SR3 multi-strain HMHVV. I like the variety. I call all of the resultant creatures "vampires" as a class of essence draining creatures and specific infected meta-humans by their "strain" name. I thin AH has a good overview.

Hi Patrick.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
So, in Really Old Shadowrun, anybody could contract HMHVV and become a vampire, even metahumans. Neato.


Yes. Vampires are "humans or metahumans", Ghouls are "humans or metahumans", Banshees are "Elves", Wendigo are "Orks", Dzoo-noo-Qua are "Trolls", and Goblins are "Dwarves".

In third edition they stopped talking about the Elves and Trolls who become Vampires, but to my knowledge it has never been officially retconned - just downplayed. There are still totally blood-drinking Orks with Fangs, though I doubt they have much clout in Bucharest.

-Frank
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
You and me both.

To be fair, I mostly want it because I answered most of these questions three years ago when I wrote that section. Now I have to wait and bite my tongue a lot when these things come up because (for the moment at least) I know the answers, but I can't tell them.

Of course, once the book does get back on the schedule and we have to do some of the hefty rewrites many of us feel will be needed, it might answer a whole new set of questions. This does not include, in either case, any of the new questions that might come up.

Time will tell, I suppose. And thanks for the welcome.
Patrick Goodman
By the way, I've given up trying to glean much from the boards since my return. Has there been any talk about vampires, et al, being gimped in 4th edition?
Ancient History
Padraig! Good tae see yer!
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
To be fair, I mostly want it because I answered most of these questions three years ago when I wrote that section

Yet another book lost along with SoLA. *sigh*

These might help your search:
Vampires

Vamp no enhanved Attribute Power in SR4

How would Vampires be implemented

HmHvv and Vampires

Hope those cover some of what you're looking for. I don't know about gimped though. Adding essence to their magic rating, combining with some of the new blood magics can make vampires pretty nasty. The new version of regen can be pretty strong when boosting up their magic rating.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Yet another book lost along with SoLA. *sigh*

Not actually lost, though; it was decided when 4th edition was put on the table that Running Wild would become the critter book for 4th edition. It's just a matter of when it's going to get back on the schedule (at least as I understand it; the whole schedule has been pushed back lots, you might have noticed).

Thanks for the thread pointers; that's exactly the kind of stuff my search-fu didn't manage to come up with. To be honest, I haven't had the chance to play in a game yet and see the SR4 vampire in action, so I can really only visualize how they work by their stats and vicariously watching other people use them.
fistandantilus4.0
I've had the pleasure of taking on a few PC vampires as a GM. They can be handled in the game, but the ones I've ran games with have all been adepts , thank God . They were very tough. Beginning character vamps held their own with very experienced characters.
Denicalis
Well then, O Dark Mage Elite, there were no problems with the PCs being too brutal? As in, allowing a vampire into your game didn't hideously unbalance it or anything?
fistandantilus4.0
Actually no, suprisingly. ("Dark Mage Elite"?Little snarky tonight ? Or am I just being sensitive?) One was a single player game, so no way to unbalance it against the rest. Another was actually a nosferatu that didn't use the influence very much, and, was , of all things ,a gunslinger adept. As I said , his character was beginning, and the rest were a lot more advanced. Around 500 karma IIRC.

I'd had one other that I ran in SR3 with a character who wanted to play a vampire that was a bit more trouble. But he was a mystic adept, so he had so many things to sink karma in to, it really wansn't much of an issue.

The Nosferatu wasn't a very "nice" character, but he'd been with the team as a normal meta before, then changed, so they kept him around, and kept him in line. The second was pretty tame as these things go. He had a high charisma and social skills, so he'd just feed lightly off of vamp groupies he found in clubs.

So to answer the question, no, no balance problems.
Denicalis
(Snarky? No, just a doff of the cap to your name. Takes me back to my days of reading all about Raist and his rise to power.)

See, I'm always worried about incorporating vamps into my games out of fear of having a player decide he's going to be Lestat, or Alucard, or any number of bad stereotypes. I like the idea of playing one, but again, fear of it going down the wrong path. I might have to draw up a character design for an infected, though, just to see how they work out. Thanks.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
(Snarky? No, just a doff of the cap to your name. Takes me back to my days of reading all about Raist and his rise to power.)


Oh ok, I'm just touchy tonight then. Good on ya' mate. I always thought Fistandantilus kinda got the shaft though. So much more he could've done *sniff* had he just been given the chance *sniff*.

I found a number of ways to balance a vampire PC. First of all, making a BP cost of 15 or so helps, as it limits their BP to start. Especially when they invariably become magically active. I think another one of the key ingredients to keeping them from getting out of control, is vampire hunters.

I've acutally ran a vamp hunting campaign on and off for a few years now. The female vamp that was in the solo game is also a vamp hunter (and an adept). They've met other vampire hunters. So the very real threat of being hunted down by a NPC or PC vampire hunter helps keep them in line a bit.

The Nosferatu finally went over board at one point, and the STAR ended up trackng him down to his doss. He caught wind of it from a contact though, just before going home, and spent the next two years hiding in London. So checks and balances can go a long way.

But for themost part, I dont' find them any more unbalancing than a strong/ experienced magically active character. But that may be because the PCs didn't have a lot of oppurtunities to feed then go directly in to combat.



Denicalis
Well, the cat was the master of all dark magic for a while, but yeah, I see your point. He really did get shafted.

And I can see how hunters could balance it. Playing a hunter character would be a bit of a blast, come to think of it. I haven't played in a few years, so I'm just getting a feel for the new system. Maybe I'll have to make vamps into one of those little forays into new stuff. Hell, if I can do a mage who is all face, with high charisma, control thoughts and manipulate appearance spells, why not a vampire who sucks essence?
fistandantilus4.0
I make vampires with pretty low stat adjsutments. The hardest thing t oadapt for is the regeneration. But against intelligent opponents, this isn't all taht bad. Shoot someone and gets back up? What's the first thing that happens? "Drek! Shoot 'em in the head man! *Bang* "cool, it worked".

Everthing else is something that can be duplicated by magic, with the exception of the magic increase from feeding. But , as I said, hadn't really been a problem.

The hunter campaign has been a lot of fun over the years. Seen a lot of PCs come and go. It's not as bad if you're playing a magically active characters, but being mundane, you have to get creative.

One of our hunters usees mainly an assault shotgun with Big D shells, so that the bring keeps the regen down until he can just blow them away with Ex-Ex in an SMG. Working in teams helps a lot. But they can go down pretty quick. My vamp hunter (Richter wink.gif, no whip though) almost died from one vamp throwing a real high force mana bolt at him, and he's been around a long time. Drones help a lot. A good drone rigger can do a lot against a vampire, especially when working in a team.
Denicalis
I'm suddenly reminded of the team of vampire hunters from Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust. One character who sits in the van and commands the light spewing spirits, or in this case, drones that fire off simulated sunlight or fire.

As for regen, every character I've ever played has has one reaction to something that regenerates. "Oh. Frag. GET THE MAGE. WE NEED FIRE."

And yeah, man, I wish I could find a decent online group for ShadowRun play, because my local market is pretty tapped out by nothing but munchkin players who want to find a minigun they can conceal in a long coat. Ugh.
ludomastro
QUOTE (Denicalis)
And yeah, man, I wish I could find a decent online group for ShadowRun play, because my local market is pretty tapped out by nothing but munchkin players who want to find a minigun they can conceal in a long coat. Ugh.

Sorry. I know how you feel. That's why I love DS.
Denicalis
Yeah, mate. That's why I migrated back here. I'm thinking that I'll stick to online for a bit. At least until I get settled in Montreal and can maybe get my feet wet.
The Entropic Wizard
Hate to break into everyone's oldboy reunion (no badness intended... kinda cool seeing all the freelancers and the old-schoolers jiving), but I've been playing since SR2, and I've always thought that HMHVV was completely strain-based. As in one strain will affect only certain metatypes and give certain results; i.e., the Kreiger strain, which, to my understanding, affects all metatypes and turns them into Ghouls. The other types would be the basic strain, which only affects humans and turns them into vampires, and the strains that produce banshees, dzoo-noo-qua, and goblins (I forgot the Orc one).

Am I right here? Or am I misfiring neurons?

BTW: I've never even heard of the Nosferatu bit.. which is surprising. That's one of the only SR rulebook related bits I've read on Dumpshock so far that is completely unfamiliar to me... eek.gif
Patrick Goodman
Your neurons are misfiring, but it's a confusing subject, so no worries.

Basic HMHVV produces vampires, dzoo-noo-qua, banshees, wendigos, and goblins in the appropriate metatypes (human, troll, elf, ork, and dwarf, respectively).

Strain II, Jarka-Criscion, creates bandersnatches, loup-garou, and one other that escapes me at the moment, but it's early yet.

Strain III, Bruckner-Langer, is allegedly lethal to all but humans, and produces the nosferatu (basically a super-vampire).

Strain IV, Krieger, affects all metatypes and makes ghouls of them.

That help any?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Patrick)
Your neurons are misfiring, but it's a confusing subject, so no worries.


Hell yes it is, the nomenclature is all wrong and has been since the Paranormal Animals books threw out HMHVV Strain 2. Carl Sargent really fell down on that one. HMHVV isn't just some cool sounding letters that signify "a magical virus" - it's literally a piece of scientific notation that indicates that it's a virus that affects humans and metahumans and causes vampirism.

The fact that Carl threw a bunch of extra things in there which infected things that were neither humans nor metahumans, and subsequently Tom Dowd threw down the whole Krieger's fiasco where there's some stuff that affects humans and metahumans but doesn't cause vampirism.

QUOTE
This is a Type II Apple... it's a kind of orange.


With the nomenclature not followed - of course it's going to be horribly confusing.

-Frank
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Hell yes it is, the nomenclature is all wrong and has been since the Paranormal Animals books threw out HMHVV Strain 2. Carl Sargent really fell down on that one. HMHVV isn't just some cool sounding letters that signify "a magical virus" - it's literally a piece of scientific notation that indicates that it's a virus that affects humans and metahumans and causes vampirism.

*sigh* I really want to get Running Wild back on the schedule....
The Entropic Wizard
Ah, excellent. Thanks for the info, Patrick. Nice to get that bit straightened out, and from a reliable source. I've always liked the risk that HMHVV (nomenclature notwithstanding) provides to PCs. It makes them a bit more nervous about taking that ghoul/wendigo/dzoo-noo-qua/wendigo/goblin-hunting run.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (The Entropic Wizard)
Ah, excellent. Thanks for the info, Patrick. Nice to get that bit straightened out, and from a reliable source. I've always liked the risk that HMHVV (nomenclature notwithstanding) provides to PCs. It makes them a bit more nervous about taking that ghoul/wendigo/dzoo-noo-qua/wendigo/goblin-hunting run.

OK, that's a sentiment I don't share or understand. Vampires are really bad ass in every edition (in SR1-3, because thir physical attributes are stupidly titanic, in SR4 because they cast spells like regenerating great dragons). But you don't catch vampirism within the context of a shadowrun mission any more than you get inhabited by an insect spirit.

The time it takes to infect someone is measured in minutes and hours, and combat is measured in seconds. The only way to get infected is to to lose and get captured, stripped, and taken to the vampire's sinister lair in chains. Then the vampire can spend the time to slowly but permanently drain your Essence away until you die (after which there might be a newly created vampire).

Getting killed with Essence Drain is like getting killed with a chihuahua - it's possible, and it's really disgusting, but as long as you're in a position to do something like move your head it's not actually a threat.

HMHVV is not an infection risk to Shadowrunners. It is an excuse for there to be more people who can fight the shadowrunners on an even level.

-Frank
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