I seem to be overspending on my rigger/hacker/general techie. I have used almost all my bp but I feel like I need a couple more drones, a little better van, some more fluff items (AR sound, etc...) and a couple of "spare" skills like artisan for some random chance use, possibly along with forgery.



I know I need to cut back to get a couple more drones and arm them, I'm just not sure where. As it is I can still afford the sensor equipment to upgrade the dones and van, but I need a couple other things like... ammo.

...after discussing the issues with several other players in my group we agreed that riggers in general were essentially given the "royal drive shaft" in the SR4 rewrite. They are no longer as unique nor as specialised as they once were, which IMO is a shame. As I mentioned in other threads, given a decent Reaction attribute and enough skill any character (even a mage or adept) can pretty much be just as good a wheelman as a "rigger" under SR4 rules.

But this character isn't just a wheel man. He is the one that does the matrix legwork, he hacks security systems from both in and outside the building, he forges fake ids and liscenses, he hacks the grid to control traffic flow while someone else manually drives.

True, anyone can buy programs and karma up skills, but isn't that true of most characters? I would like to see riggers be a lot more seperated from hackers though. Possibly enough to learn and find a sr3 game, but for now I'm sticking with sr4.

Your character sounds a lot more like a hacker than a rigger IMHO. But then there is relatively little difference between a rigger and a hacker except skill set. (Rigger has more pilot vehicle skills and high levels of EW, gunnery and the like; Hacker has lots of cracking and electronics). Sure, you can be skilled in both, which is cool, but it's eating into your BPs.

You took Cracking Group 3, Cybercombat 4, Hacking 4.

using 4bp each to bring cybercombat and hacking up a level. Keeping the group there for bp tracking during creation purposes.

So realisticly hackers and riggers are not really combineable at creation? From what I have read it is common enough to combine the two "classes".

you can do that at chargen??

It doesn't say anything against it that I can find, just that if you increase one skill it breaks the group and cant increase it as a group anymore.

If you are a rigger that is going to be jumped in, then you need skills and to buy up your drone response. When jumped in your dice pool is Drone Response + Skill.

So a Rigger/Hacker who is VR, will need to buy program, and buy response to get the most dice for the program + Skill while Hacking, and Response + Skill while Rigging.

I don't think you are supposed to be able to buy a skill group and break it into individual skills all at character creation. If you want cybercombat 4, hacking 4, and EW 3, it should cost you 48BPs, not 38BPs. Else the maths becomes all too confusing, and the principle behind skill groups is defeated.

Still, if your GM accepts such a convoluted method of character creation, who am I to say no?

I figured it was just a way to keep the karma math easy and that breaking it up at chargen was normal.

I forgot about upgrading hardware. I figured I could copy the pilot and firewall programs. I also have a spare commlink on my regular sheet with decent respnse but a signal 0 for my pan that is seperate from my reglar comm. Ok, so besides upgrading sensors I'll need to buy a couple of response chips at rating 4 (same as pilot) or higher and possibly signal chips or sat links.

'Tis a generous GM that lets you copy your programs that easily.

But then I also see that you're planning on running the whole 'Commlink Daisy Chain' that has been discussed to death here on DS. I personally hate it, as it either makes you hack-proof (and by extension, so can all the NPCs, rendering a hacker PC pointless) or is simply a headache for the GM who has to keep track of what is running from what commlink, where any Matrix attacks are coming from, and what they can affect.

Well, as the GM in this instance, I'm going to have to rule against breaking up the skill group at chargen the way you have. Personally I don't think it's a big deal, but I have three other character sheets in already, who didn't go that route. And you'll need to buy each program seperately at chargen. Sorry... I think this is like the third time Ive had to say no to you already...

I'm not doing any daisy chain. Actually I'm not even sure how to do the daisy chain thing as I haven't followed hacker threads too much until now. I'll just have two seperate commlinks with two seperate fuctions, one for controlling personal gizmos (smartlink gun, goggles, earbud, probably just datajack the van), possibly with a skinlink, the other for hacking and such. I didn't think anything of breaking up the group since with reading the rules, hopefully not in munchkin mode, I thought that was what was ment in the first place.

The other "no"s were just "do you use non SR4 book stuff" type of things that are really gm dependant. This is the first gm ruling type of thing.

Ok, so I'll redo the programs and some skills then get back to the topic of "what can I scale back/what else do I need".

just adding to the list:

i'm not sure if you can buy rating 6 autosofts at chargen. in fact, i don't think you can buy rating 6 autosofts, period. certainly, you can't get any use out of them at chargen...

anyways, my advice:

obtain a set of skillwires. instead of buying the mechanics group at 2, buy a couple of skillsofts (honestly, do you really need watercraft or industrial? at most, make it 3 skillsofts, and ditch watercraft). perhaps add to that list disguise, or maybe even the entire stealth group?

you won't really be able to create fake IDs or licences. it is specifically stated that it requires large organisations dedicated to such things to be able to make one, and it's going to be much cheaper, easier, and less time consuming to simply buy them imo. you certainly don't have any contacts that are going to allow the possibility... as such, i recommend lowering or even removing forgery, since you have no accompanying skill to allow you to forge something (forgery would allow you to create a fake mona lisa, not a fake ID, generally speaking, anyways). if you really want to be someone who makes fake IDs, you aren't looking at forgery skill... you're looking at high hacking skills/programs and lots of contacts.

ask yourself: do you really need demolitions? use it to boost other skills instead. like your combat skills, which are going to be woefully inadequate. additionally, consider some specialisations: automatics(SMGs), gunnery(ballistic), and groundcraft(wheeled) for example.

don't buy signal 5... buy a satellite link for 500 nuyen instead (just saved you a couple grand, iirc). swap out defuse for decrypt (encryption should be much more common). dump the IC (copy the agent later, or something, instead).

consider replacing the bulldog with the hovercraft. a bunch cheaper, iirc, and better in a few ways. of course, this is dependant on your GM feeling that hovercrafts are not uncommon and highly noticeable also, consider investing more in dobermans/steel lynxes. these should be your main combat drones, because they come with a built-in weapon mount (2,500 free nuyen), response 4 (savings adds up quick on that one), and free autosofts which means you can start off with a copy in each drone rather than having to spend a few hours before you can use more than one drone in combat. consider picking up a few smaller drones for reconnaisance (especially indoor reconnaisance... the iball is a good choice, and comes with some limited combat options, and i am also a big fan of the fly-spy). with all the BP you've saved, you should have more BP to put into resources by now. if you still haven't gathered enough, then i recommend you add in another negative quality or two. i'm not sure if addiction(adrenalin) is even legal, actually... consider addiction to a combat drug instead, maybe?

I hadn't fully read the forgery entry before. It looks like it can be used to imitate wageslaves and other company men through the use of nanopaste instead of just a false id that still gets your face on camera. So I think I'll keep it since I already have the software to do a bit with forgery.

I was thinking about skillwires for some extra flexability, especially with athletics. I've already needed industrial and possibly nautical mech. with my other hacker/rigger (which I guess I should have done some more reading for him). Autosofts do list 1-4 don't they? I was working off of the table on 228. It doesn't list the 1-4 there but I just checked the regular table on 321 and it does show 1-4 there. More changes I guess.

Demolitions was in part so I could make an expensive but effective "smart grenade" with a iBall and explosives. That I have mentioned to my GM already. I'm assuming I'll have a drone with a big gun and a lot of bullets. I do have disguise 2 already but higher is better.

How does a sat link work when communicating with drones in a building with anti-wireless wallpaper? Regular signal works within distance and LOS, right? Does sat link require near LOS to a satilite or is it just a really cheap long range signal? I thought I had decrypt... I don't.

According to rigger 3 hovercraft have problems with sloaps due to loosing the air cussion. I'm also not sure about hovercraft for other practical, unwritten reasons. I guess that is more GM info. I would like to use some rigger 3 stuff like a roadmaster, but not this game, SR4 book only.

I realise that a lot of these responses are justifying my choices but I'm still thinking about some of them like demolitions and those mechanic skills. So thanks for the critique.

you've needed nautical mechanics? man, that's weird... didn't think anyone ever actually needed to work on boats, ever.

as far as your smart grenade, i recommend you just buy missiles. or normal grenades and a toy remote control car... remember you can wirelessly detonate grenades already (sounds crazy, doesn't it?)

anyways, i still recommend you use skillwires instead of all those skill points. you're not likely to need to spend edge on the skill anyways...

strictly speaking, sattelite links simply give you a signal rating of 8. presumably so that you can establish 2-way contact with a satellite, but it works for anything.

once again, ask your GM how he runs hovercraft. he may, for example, assume that they've found a way to disregard the slope problem.

and the problem with your autosofts, is that you have rating 6 autosofts listed. 3 of them, in fact. as you noted, the table goes to 4.

now, i would probably allow you to code your own (anyone willing to go through that amount of time deserves the boost), but they aren't generally speaking available, and are not available to starting characters, at least.

[edit] oh, and as far as looking like a company man or whatever... that's what disguise does, silly. not forgery. forgery lets you use artisan skill to make a fake <whatever> that looks authentic. you could forge an expensive painting, for example, or you could modify a ford americar to look like a '57 mustang (or is it '67 that is the famous year for mustangs? not being a car person, i wouldn't know), or you could create a symphony that is supposed to be written by beethoven but was never published or something.

also, on another note, i've just now noticed... you have no social skills. you may want to consider fixing that... at the very least, get some skillsofts. the ability to lie, and fit in (con and etiquette) at the very least are almost essential to being a runner. [/edit]

Oddly enough the first run (still going on) we are stealing a crate from a 3 aztlanians (can't remember right now but at least one blood mage and one adept) who are using a spirit to accellerate their cargo ship. I havn't needed nautical yet but for hacking the ship it would likely come in handy.

Didn't realize you could wirelessly detonate grenades. Just dropping a grenade and a camera could be evil.

I've rearanged some programs and reduced the autosofts (which I get are limited to 4 but the place I was at when writing them down just have a price up to R6 with no mention of a rating 4 cap) and I'm pushing the 50bp equipment limit. 32k in drones, 37k for a vehicle, 61k commlink and programs (autosofts listed in drones now), and 62k in cyber/bio (though 30k adrenal pump is debateable) really wipe me out cash wise. If I weren't the only techie I could save quite a bit of money but as it is...

Bp wise skillsofts are entirely more efficient than actual skills so with the limited cash it is just turning into a balancing act.

Oh, and autosoft availability is ratingx2 so IF a rating 6 existed it would still be starting gear.

I would agree with Jaid about the adrenaline pump. While it isn't bad, you essentially are saying "I want to be very powerful and then keel over afterwards a lot" by using one. For a sammy that ain't bad, for a rigger you can do a lot more damage raking the enemy with a few drones. If you want a similar effect just run a novacoke addiction or something. Especially for a starting character that isn't of a great amount of use compared to how expensive it is.

The adrenal pump and associated addiction were always a bit iffy. I could always replace the addiction with something like weak immune system or perhaps codeblock.

The Smart Firing Platform lists a pilot, sensor, and targeting autosoft as 3. And the alpha is only ¥1700 so that is ¥300 for ammo. ¥2000 for a ¥600 autosoft and some autonomy from a drone seems questionable. How would it's initiative passes work with the drone? Would the drone get it's own init and passes and the platform get another init and 3 more passes?

I've dropped the IC, adrenal pump, and switched to the everglades which saved about 50k. So I have 10bp of extra stuff and 4 more bp after that for skills etc...

Think of a smart platform as a drone with a gun and no wheels. It's not a drone turret.

So it is it's own drone stats and it isn't nesecarily "connected" to the drone it is mounted on. Makes sense. But isn't that sorta cheating, mounting a drone on a drone?

It's a firearm accessory.

"Smart Firing Platform: Th is is a non-mobile robotic tripod
(see below) equipped with a remote-control pivot that allows
for a 180-degree fi ring arc (and a 60-degree inclination).
A smartgun-equipped weapon mounted to the platform can
be fi red remotely or by the platform’s Pilot. Th e platform is
equipped with Pilot 3, Sensor 3, and one Targeting autosoft
(see p. 240) at Rating 3."

"Tripod" is the word to look at.

sure, and firearms accessories can be added to firearms. and firearms can be added to drones with weapon mounts.

the net effect is that, when mounted on a drone, a firearm with a smart firing platform works an awful lot like an automated turret. sufficiently like an automated turret that you could change a few words of text for flavor purposes and call it an automated turret, i would say. considering it costs between 40% and 100% of the drones it can be added to, i can't really say it seems terribly unbalanced either (i don't recall turrets being quite that expensive compared to the drone's cost in SR3 at least)

as written, the drone and the platform would have different initiative scores, and separate initiative passes.

this means that, for example, your drone can take a full defense action for it's first two actions in the round (third action should probably be spent on not crashing, but it's up to you) while the smart firing platform shoots stuff for all 3 actions.

it would also seem reasonable that, for example, they could share sensor data, and potentially even have teamwork tests for active targetting or otherwise actively using sensors, imo. this isn't explicitly mentioned, however, but like i said, it seems reasonable.

But it's a man sized tripod. Not a drone sized tripod. It probably stands at least 2 feet tall also. So unless you have a large drone I, as the GM, wouldn't let you mount it onto another drone. But I would allow you to mount 2 or more on that hovercraft though.

P.S. I've personally started to treat hovercraft more like landspeeders/spinners than air-cushion vehicles.

and a regular ares alpha doesn't fit into a drone mount either, i'd be willing to bet.

i tend to operate under the assumption that when you buy a gun for your drone, you're buying a version to be used with a drone, and it wouldn't really work for a person to use normally. likewise with accessories. sure, you couldn't take the tripod off your troll's LMG and put it into a drone's weapon mount, but then again unless you modify the mount, the LMG, or quite possibly both you aren't going to be able to mount the LMG on the drone either.

Voiparri: Get rid of the Sniffer 3 program and buy a Radio Signal Scanner 6 micro-sensor. You save about 1200 , you get a higher rating Sniffer program and it's more "legal" (4R availability vs. 12R availability).

actually, it's the exact same amount of legal. both are restricted. and when it comes down to it, the number part of availability is just how long you have to wait, or whether you can even get it at all, for that matter... the letter tells you how legal it is.

Drop the mechanic skill group and demolitions. Use the points you save to get contacts who have these skills (or get skillsofts).

ok, current sheet is here. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pqU...ih8xe834xjHMXWw

It isn't standard but it makes for easy upkeep. the bp/nuyen total is on the equipment page.

I've dropped mechanics getting skillsofts instead. I'm thinking about dropping heavy weapons since "I" don't use HW, just gunnery, right? I dropped demo, increased automatics, and used a couple other suggestions.