Does the seperation between individual targetting and area targetting spells bother anyone else? I understand where they're coming from in saying that it takes more concentration/control to limit the area of a spell than it does to just bust it out at full strength, but you don't see a similar modifier for casting a spell at a lower force do you?

I think my main annoyance is at having to buy a spell twice if I want to be able to use it on an individual and groups.

There is no modifier for casting spells at different force levels, because you can cast any spell you know at any force level (up to twice your magic).

Err, I'm not sure I explained myself very well. I understood why it is possible to cast a spell at variable force levels. I'll try and clarify my question:

For many spells there are two seperate versions, one for area and one for individual targetting. If you wish to use the spell on a single target but possess only the area version you have to limit the area of the spell by sacrificing dice from your dice pool thus risking it being less effective. This annoys me. I don't like having to pay for a spell a second time just to be able to use it on a single target without sacrificing a bunch of dice from my dice pool.

I was wondering if any one else felt similarly.

Ah, I see.

Well, I don't feel annoyed with it, even agree with it

It is one way of making sure that magic doesn't become too unbalanced.

Your allready more powerful then that street sami with a gun, now you want to have to learn less spells? Yeesh, kids these days

Magic is already powerful enough without letting mages buy one spell for both area and single targets. So no, it doesn't bother me.

I guess I'm a powergamer at heart

You can use a single target spell on multiple targets. Of course this is less effective then simply using an area effect version fo the same spell.

Then again, why not buy a generic spell for 3 BP that allows you set all the effects as variable at the time of casting.

Even better, get that spell for free when you buy that pesky 15 bp positive quality Magician.

The 15 BP allows you to be a mage, but does not give you any spells.

This is a change from previous editions.
You have to buy your spells (at 3 bp), and are limited to twice your spellcasting level of spells at chargen.

Actually I agree with Tomothy. I think that it is silly to have so many spells that are almost the same as each other. I don't care cost wise. I could see paying more for variable effect spells. I think that you should have a smaller number of variable effect spells.

It doesn't make you a power gamer. It is also not a good way of balencing magic. It's like saying that you are balencing people that use guns by having them buy two guns instead of one with a selector switch.

You could conceivably (with hefty GM fiat) design a spell that is variable like that. Area or single target. It would just have a higher drain value than both the area and single target spells. I wouldn't see any problem with that.

Why would it have a higher drain value? The drain would be variable depending on the effect. It's not more powerful effect. It is just one less spell to write down.

I've got a great idea. Let the spell be cast against a single target (with the standard drain for the single target version) or against an area (with the standard drain and effects for the area effect version), but in order to maintain game balance, we'll make the spell cost twice as much to learn.
It's brilliant, brilliant, BRILLIANT!

Okay, tongue-in-cheek sarcasm aside, this is probably the best option. If it really bothers you that much just allow the spells to be lumped together in one package, but keep the sum cost for them all unchanged to preserve game balance. But you're really just taking away the option to buy a cheap single-target spell.
If you really want to get spicy, let them learn the 3-version spells (touch, LOS, area) for only 2.5 times the regular cost, just like skill groups.

Different weapons for different jobs. A single target spell is like a sniper rifle while an area spell is a grenade.

What about touch range spells, which would be like a knife? Those would seem to be the least valuable, until you end up grappled.

The division makes sense to me. It all depends on how you want to play your mage. If you want a couple of mass carnage spells during a run, then go with area spells. If you want to hang in there longer or need to pick just certain targets out of the crowd, then use single target spells. If you prefer stealth and getting up close and personal, use touch range.

Most mages will eventually have a variety of these spells. I'll usually take an area stun spell (stun for lower drain), a stun and physical single target spell, and Deathtouch for close in combat. The other spells would be supporting spells fromthe other categories like healing and detection, with a couple of illusion spells thrown in.

In SR3 it helped that you could go on an astral quest to reduce the karma cost of learning a spell.

hmm, based on the spell design rules i can think of a way to design variable spells with variabel drain based on what options you use.

however, i would most likely build a system where you buy the individual parts of the spells. so that to have a fireball you have to know how to cast a combat spell, with area effect, as indirect and with elemental aspects.

and for each kind of spell (combat, detection, health, illusion, manipulation) you would have to now the modifiers all over again because they interact differently.

and you have to know how to cast the base spell type before you can pick up any of the modifiers.

hmm, i wonder if combat spells should get free stun or free physical damage. maybe leave it up to the caster or his/her teacher? most likely any official magic school like mit&t would teach stun spells as default if they teach combat spells at all...

maybe also throw in a system where casting a spell you have not paid points for (as in the normal way) you have to improvise. requiring a extended test with a threshold based on the number of options you want to add. so, coming up with a simple one target combat spell with default damage type will be quicker and simpler then coming up with a area indirect with elemental effect and the other kind of damage

Hmm, well after reading a post dealing with this subject on the boards I've started allowing Mages to cast spells that they haven't actually learnt, with the following rules.

-1- The mage has to spend Edge in order to do so.

-2- The spell is always overcast at the highest force possible.

-3- The mage may not use his Sorcery Skill, but they can learn a meta-magic that I haven't actually designed yet to add their Grade to the Dicepool.

*Edit*

If you don't like the idea of going Mage: The Awakening with magic like I did perhaps you could allow a Mage to spend Edge in order to cast a different version of a spell he already knew? (Manaball instead of Manabolt, ect...)

On page 173, SR4 under area spells, it says that a caster can reduce or expand the area of an area effect spell by withholding 1 die from the spellcasting test per meter. So, if a mage cast a Force 5 Powerball spell, which would have a base 5 meter radius. The mage needs to reduce the radius for whatever reason so they withhold 2 dice from the test to make the spell's radius only 3 meters.

Since in SR4, the spell's radius is determined by the spell's force, you could cast a lower force spell, but that would only make it easier for the targets to resist it. Withholding dice will limit successes, but the spell will have to be resisted at full force.

I was using a system that reduced the number of spells to a number of spells based on what they did. Basically you learned spells and elemental effects. Each spell you learned that had an elemental effect was based on what it did. All spells and effects cost 5.

Spell Ice Sheet became elemental sheet. Then there was elemental strike which covered bolt and ball type spells. If you didn't add anything then it works as a stun attack only.

Then add an elemental effect for +2 drain:
Air – Increased knockback and area effect wind secondary effects. Bashing damage
Lightning – Electrical Damage (½ impact armor)
Fire – Fire Damage, can start secondary fires
Ice – Either freeze someone in place, act as ice knives, or ice sheet
Metal – Shards of metal doing lethal
Stone – Flying rocks doing additional bashing

I also made it where you could add more then one but each type added +2 drain, +1 damage and additional secondary effects.

I also removed a few spells like increased reflexes and reaction. I also capped magic rating at 9. Magic users weren't too powerful in my games but they had a different power breakdown.

Number of successes is limited by force

*bangs head on the wall*

I can only plead fatigue due to a new born for forgetting the force limit to successes on casting spells.