A few spells with Force-linked effectiveness (such as several health spells) are part of most starting spell lists.

Why would a dedicated min-maxer Awakened type ever choose to take any spells - other than those whose effect is not dependent upon Force - at less than maximum starting level? Why wouldn't you want to learn Heal (for example) at maximum?

Sure, you can take more starting spells by dropping their Force level (and effect): but if you want potency in your spells and choose to include any starting spells with Force-linked effectiveness, wouldn't it make sense not to spend the karma (in effect twice!) to raise them later?

Some spells that are not combat related have little need to go above force 3, some only even need 1 for common use. If you get any spells at less than 6, always go with the odd numbers, drain rounds down.

For minor uses, force 1 magic fingers is enough (even a wimp can open an unlocked door). Force 1 create food makes one meal (or was it day?) worth of food. Force 1 fashion allows decorative changes to non-armored clothing.

As for heal, if you have biotech(first aid) and force 5 heal (exclusive for learning cost, so 3 points) you can lower the injury level by one then remove up to 5 boxes of the damage that still exists. This method also lowers the drain from the heal spell, but requires more active skills.
(and what fwank said)

The true min-maxing comes through careful use of fetish and exclusive limitations. If it's a non-combat spell, exclusive is a no-brainer. If it's one of those spells you'll probably never find your life depending on, fetish is another good one.

Heal and Treat are the one spells we make exception for at the start - you want to learn it at force 10? Sure. Have a sorcery and magic rating of at least 5 (half the force of the spell, and in the interests of at least a passing nod to the chances of them being able to learn the spell in the first place), and you can have it.

Reason? It doesn't upset game balance and keeps characters alive a bit longer. The mage still has to drain it at 5D if she casts it on someone with a deadly wound, and get enough successes to make it worth potentially knocking the mage out, never mind the chances of doing it if they have cyber and god forbid some bioware as well!

But with the others... well, I can see what you mean, but imho your spells should fit what you would be likely to know at the point of starting play. Have a background story that fits. Why would a wilderness shaman, only just left the stix, know a spell like improved invisibility? When have they needed to hide from machine more than man? if they have both to be on the safe side, that's one thing (and more spell points), but not if they just had that. Unless they had a backstory to back it up which didn't conflict with their other choices, of course...

In short, if you make it all about the character (enforce 20 questions, it really really helps) the question doesn't really come up.

Back to the question at large: "Why would a dedicated min-maxer Awakened type ever choose to take any spells - other than those whose effect is not dependent upon Force - at less than maximum starting level?"

Good question.

If they're smart, Drain. Some of those spells are VERY hard to drain, especially area affect and damaging spells. Some of them are also very hard to cast and you need to split your dice very carefully and often suffer in one way or another for it. Dumb min-maxers often then die because they're too stunned to protect themselves. But min maxers aren't usually dumb, they're usually quite cunning. And they hate to look stupid by passing out every other combat turn. So they're careful.

A true min-maxer looks at the spell effects, and buys the coolest of the not-force-dependent ones (e.g. increased reflexes) at low force FIRST. They can always drop them later to free up points. Then they buy the force dependant ones they really want or that need to be high force because of the target number to have a chance of working (like Imp Invis) at Force 5 or 6 (5 if they want more spells, 6 if they just want to make the drain worth it). Any left over they buy at Force 3 or 4.

Then they use starting resources if they have them (and its a min maxer, so you can bet they will) to buy extra force points if they want them to bond some sustaining foci with, and any leftover to buy some normally harder to find force 5 or 6 formula with for when they've got some in game karma and access to the metaplanes, and they're set to go.

Speaking as a shameless min-maxer when creating NPCs, a min maxer doesn't just look at each thing in isolation - they'll look at it in connection with other things they have min maxed, and they'll do it in detail which is what makes them potentially unbalancing. But if you start enforcing 'match it up with your background - and I mean REASONABLE background mr walking corporate cybermancy tiger/troll shapeshifter experiment!' type rules, they end up instead having a very specialised character. A munchkin at what they do, perhaps, but not much cop at anything else. Some min-maxers hate this, and instead unintentionally end up with a very balanced character because they want to get the best all round performance.

But to be honest, I have no problem with a min-maxed characters. It just means they are more likely to be specialist. That's good. It means they depend on their team mates to cover the angles they can't and if they dont' act as part of the team in shadowrun, they're gonna get everyone hosed. The other players will take care of it in short order!

Another good reason is to not get stuff at 5/6 is because some people like to diversify. You simply don't get enough spell points to do everything you want to do, and people like me prefer to have a lot of tools to be inventive with rather than be a one trick pony (FYI, I rarely play combat monsters, I'm more into the puzzle type of game). So I'll have my lvl 5 stunbolt, but I'll also WANT invis, heal, glue strip, acid stream so on and so forth. Only rarely will I be using these in a situation where I absolutely need to do the greatest effect on the first try, and at low levels I can easily resist drain. So I'll take my whole bag of different spells at levels 1-3 and rely more on repeated successes (acid stream level 1 vs. a steel wall will win out EVENTUALLY.....) Plus you can generally supplement level 1 spells with your sorcery pool. You can't do that with level 0 spells. (Of course, this will not apply to combat and 'one try only' spells like heal).

Just a quick reminder, guys, you *CANNOT* use magical healing then first aid, so unless your character has a doctor's office somewhere, it's one or the other (SR., p 127)

But you can use first aid then magical healing.

~J

The Increase (Attribute) spells, when purchased with the intention of quickening them or placing them in a sustained focus, need only be learned at a Force Rating equal to half the number of successes you expect to get on your Spellcasting. If you expect to find a way to cast Increase Quickness with 18 dice against current quickness 5 (TN 5), you only expect 6 successes, and thus +3 affect. Obtaining a Rating 3 sustaining focus and learning the spell at Force 3 gives you just enough to utilize all the successes when you roll the expected number. Many would get a Rating 4 and learn it at Force 4, for those castings where you get lucky, while others would rather spend the same amount and most assuredly have two attributes increased by 2 instead of just having a chance at one attribute increased by 4.

Clairvoyance Extended Range at Force 1 lets me see walls and rooms and weapons resting on tripods even if it all the people resist the spell.

Oxygenate at Force 1, NOT exclusive, lets me save 2 or 3 lives from drowning.

A detect spell (e.g. Detect Bullet), obtained just for the purpose of Anchoring, needs only be learned at the force I'm willing to put it into the focus.

Mindlink, extended range, only needs to be learned at the communication distance I'm willing to pay for. It's simply linear. Someone on another thread talked about getting MindLink at Force 1. This typically lets you communicate with a friend out to a distance of 5 or 6 meters.

Occasionally I take Treat at Force 1 or 3, with LOS modifier, to be able to instantly remove tiny boxes of damage from our Samurai on point during the battle. It removes his wound modifiers, and if he gets additional wounds later in the battle those can be treated with a second spell after the battle.

I never use Exclusive for any spell I intend to cast into Astral Space, into a Sustaining Focus, or will Quicken. Exclusive would prohibit those uses.

Ah, yes I see it now. For thast part at least ::smirk::

Kagetenshi is most correct. First Aid can come in very useful if you have a medkit. (Or for those who enjoy rolling against high target numbers because they lack proper equipment at the right time.) Stabilize or lower them by a wound level, and then got o your Treat or Heal spells.

OurTeam has a great point too, you only need to lower a Sam's damage by one or two boxes in the midst of battle in order to keep them effective. Although I don't believe a Heal or Treat spell will bring them any lower than whatever that initial Treat or Heal brought them down to.

There's a reason anyone with the biotech skill should spring for the Savior medkit

Uhm - re drain, it was my understanding that you could always choose to cast the spell at a lower Force than what you had learned it at (perhaps specifically for drain purposes?). However, by learning the spell at a higher Force, you have the option for if or when you need it.

My understanding of the rules is very much like yours. You may cast your spell anywhere from Force 1 up to the maximum rating at which you learned it. And this will directly affect your drain calculations.

Likewise, if a spell is learned exclusively so that it is a cheaper cost when you originally purchase it, the total force of the spell is used when calculating drain. Therefore a Force 9 Manabolt (ex) at base damage Moderate would incure a drain of 4M. Where as a straight Force 7 Manabolt at base damage Moderate would incure a drain of 3M.

Hey, you're right, you can use first aid first... learn something new... (I blame my old GM).

I'm pretty sure you guys are right, you can cast spells below the level you learned them at. However, if I'm learning Stunbolt and I want it to be pretty strong without fetishes or making it exclusive, but drain is still important, than I know I will pretty much always cast it at level 5 rather than level 6. After all, why risk taking an added level of stun damage just for 1 more point of power? So in that case I'll intentionally limit myself to level 5 and get an extra spell point.

Everybody's got their own tastes and preferences. 6 is good cause getting a force 7 is fairly pointless since a defending target need only roll 6's to match your 7's automatically. I prefer the full Force 6 on spells like that because the drain is wortht he extra punch, as with a stunbolt or ball especially. The higher the target number that your target has to resist, the better for you in the end. And Force 6's are a lot easier to learn than Force 8's.

Besides, Stunbolts and Stunballs reduce drain power by 1 anyway, so in effect: A Force 6 Stunbolt has a drain of 2(DL) even if cast at its highest force, and your target still has to resist 6's. Sometimes the extra step can be worth it ^_^

Quick question: If I have a heal 6 and someone is only lightly wounded, what's to stop me from casting it at force 2?

Sunday

There is no reason to cast Heal or Treat at a force higher than the number of boxes you wish to heal, unless your GM says you have to in order to use extra successes to reduce time. My interpretation of the spell description is that you don't even need to do that. Simply use a force sufficient for either the number of boxes the target has, or the highest number you think you might obtain on the spellcasting success.

E.g. Healing a Samuari might need a Target number 10 or 11 to heal one box. If drain will be a problem (e.g. the Samurai has a deadly) and you don't think you could possibly get more than 5 successes, don't bother using more than force 5. This way you resist 2D instead of 3D, and may be able to put more dice toward successes.

What would a quickened heal spell do exactly?

Can't Quicken a non-sustained spells. Heal is a Permanent spell, so you can't Quicken it.

Sphynx

Thats what I thought. So what were you on about in your last post?

Such as Heal spells, Treat Spells and Spells that you wish to Quicken. Heal and Treat being 2 seperate of 3 possibilities, not a part of the 3rd possibility.

Sphynx

aaaaaah! *dawn breaks over a brave new world where spotlite pays attention* I see. Ok, I'll go eat worms then.

So we identify a few caveats:

* diversity of starting spell list v. power of starting list
* optimal result desired/expected/needed
* starting Magic rating

With specific reference to resisted spells (such as Stunbolt ) and where one's starting magic is at the full possible, why would one take them at (say) Force 5 as opposed to Force 6? If F/2 rounds up, the drain for both is exactly the same, while giving the target only half the chance of resisting (1/6 as opposed to 1/3).

It rounds down.

The force rounds down. It's one of the only fractions in SR that does it. Hence, the small percentage of drain you don't suffer more or less offsets the tiny increase in power you'd get otherwise and you come away with a free force point to spend elsewhere.

Oops. That's what I get for posting without sourcebooks at hand and with Amnesia 1/2 (distracted memory).

Yet all that does is shift the question from the comparison between Force 5 and 6 to the comparison between Force 4 and 5 (chances of resisting 1/2 v. 1/3).

Yes, it does shift the question to that point, and the answer is 'mini-maxers don't buy spells at force 4' (at least only with very rare exceptions).

Usage of high force spells generally tend towards needing to have the force of the spell high to be able to get something done. Low force spells can be viable only if their effectiveness does not depend on spell force eg. Improved Reflexes.

Furthermore, with only a limited amount of spell points to spend, it would seem prudent only to spend those points where needed. Indeed, the argument would seem to boil down to 3 numbers, 1, 5 or 6. 1 for spell effectiveness not limited by force, 5 for drain and 6 for maximum effect.

Certain spells can easily be fetished/exclusive, since the application of which is usually not in combat and the PC has time to prepare to cast it.

Would there ever be any reason to raise a spell, the effectiveness of which is not limited by Force, above 1? (As in, why would anyone do it at all?) Personally, I'm quite a bit more leery of botches - which would seem to happen extremely easily at such low Force, especially for PCs while they are still below the 50 karma total - but that could be just me.

Why would botches be any easier, or more common with a lower Force spell? You are still rolling the same amount of dice to cast it (Sorcery plus Spell Pool).

What's the ruling for what constitutes a botch wrt spellcasting? (Once again, no books with me.)

Still wondering whether (in the absence of the botch [house?] rule) there is any non-personality reason for learning non Force-limited-effect spells at more than Force 1.

I don't recall there being a seperate specific rule for botches while spellcasting. The standard rule requires a roll of all ones.

There is no real advantage to taking the spells at a higher Force, except for them being harder to dispel.

Thanks, both.

Oddly enough, this might actually end up a point of all-around agreement wrt spell optimisation - where the NPCs as played by the GM don't normally make the attempt to dispell the PCs' active sustained or quickened spells, that is

I don't do a lot of actual dispelling in-game either. Remember to watch out for Wards though. They can also bring down low-Force spells at inconvenient times.

When making up magicians, I usually take no combat-type spell (which includes elemental manipulations and the like) higher than 6. That's a hella-good TN for someone to resist, regardless of their stats, and moreso if it's a Serious-level attack.

I almost never take Treat, and only take Heal at about 5. I throw in Fast and Nutrition at 1 (all you need to get them off, really), and Oxygenate, Makeover, and Fashion at 2 (to be sure I get them off).

Detections usually sit at around 3; I pride myself on deductive reasoning, so I don't necessarily need a detection spell to be high. Besides, you never know when a GM will decide you don't need to know something for the sake of the story.

Illusions are either 3 or 5, depending on their intended purpose.

I don't actually buy a lot of stuff off the bat; I wait, and make up spells that are "caster only" in nature. They are typically regular spells (Increased Reflexes, Armor, etc.) that have the word "Personal" in front. For the team, I take Barrier (all kinds), the area-version of Chaff, and other such stuff.

Incidentally, if you do elemental manipulations, it's more important to keep that Drain low, because they automatically increase it for those spells, moreso for the area-effect ones. Nova seems nifty, until you have to resist Deadly drain.