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Tomothy
I'm kind of confused about Possession traditions. If I just say how I think it works could somebody please clear up any mistakes I make?

Mages from a possession based tradition can summon and bind spirits as normal but those spirits cannot materialise. Instead of materialising the spirits can inhabit or possess a host?
Kyoto Kid
...you don't want to get me on Possession traditions. After a recent experience, as a GM I am strongly considering relegating them to Magical threats (NPC) only as they were in previous editions. There are some things that just feel seriously "broken" to me.
Aaron
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...you don't want to get me on Possession traditions. After a recent experience, as a GM I am strongly considering relegating them to Magical threats (NPC) only as they were in previous editions. There are some things that just feel seriously "broken" to me.

In the interest of discourse, could you be more specific?
hyzmarca
Voudou was a perfectly valid choice for PCs in SR3.

However, the SR3 version of possession was far less powerful than the SR4 version is.
nathanross
Yeah, there have been some voodoo problems in Seattle of recent and I think them Hougans and Mambos getting a bit to comfortable with the new rules. Anyone got any ideas on how to make them not so absurdly f***ed up. And dont worry about what RAW says, even the pros dont always get it right.

It has been brought up before and should be said again, Loa are proud and dont like to be ordered. A voodoun practicioner doesn't just demand tasks of him loa, he begs. This gives GMs at least one tool over them upity possesors, what else though?
nathanross
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 16 2007, 11:32 PM)
In the interest of discourse, could you be more specific?

I dont know the exact stats of the character, but think:
  • Elf
  • Charisma 7
  • Use spirit to raise Charisma to 12
  • Conjure, bind, and cast spells with 1.5x more drain dice than any other character
Those are the main problems. KK can probably explain the details much better, since I dont actually understand most Magic rules, but I do know what it is like to spend all your BP trying to be a face the normal way, and being totally overshadowed by someone who isn't even willing to roleplay.
Tomothy
I thought inhabiting spirits only added force to physical stats? How does hosting a spirit increase your charisma?
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Strret Magic pg 102 - Possession and Vessels Sidebar)

If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit's Force is added to the vessels physical attributes. While possessed, the spirit's Mental and Special attributes are used(which means that a possessed technomancer cannot access Resonance).


Part of the problem is when the attributes get way up there. This was the same problem with the Channeling Metamagic in 3rd edition, along with Immunity to Normal Weapons that was recieved as well. That was checked by the massive drain that you incurred from channeling, which doesn't happen anymore.

There is a difference between normal possession traditions and the channeling metamagic. Possession doesn't allow the summoner direct control (although it is suggested to give the summoner lots of lee way so they don't lose control of their character while possessed). While with channeling, the possessed summoner can use their own skills nad be in control. It does also state that while channeling, the lowest of mental attributes are used.

QUOTE (Street Magic pg 55 Channeling)

Additionally, the vessel resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest mental attributes of the two minds. Otherwise, resolve the effects andduration of possession normaly.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 16 2007, 11:18 PM)
...you don't want to get me on Possession traditions.  After a recent experience, as a GM I am strongly considering relegating them to Magical threats (NPC) only as they were in previous editions.  There are some things that just feel seriously "broken" to me.

In the interest of discourse, could you be more specific?

...well for one the mage becoming a willing vessel for possession. Suddenly he or she gains the properties and powers (including spell casting if applicable) of said spirit including the spirit's attributes (added ti the mage's own), immunity to normal weapons and the spirit's initiative. In my book that makes the PC way too ubermensch.

Against Mundanes, Possession is way to powerful to resist. First, the spirit gets twice its force while the mundane gets his or her WP + intuition. For say, an average beat cop or security guard a force 5 spirit would have the advantage especially if it is instructed to throw in it's edge (equal to its force). True the spirit cannot use the possessed character's skills but it is still under control of the casting mage. Furthermore, any implants that are passive (such as bone lacing) or active at the time (such as eye & ear replacement) still function for the spirit. The same would hold true for a mage who has any sustaining foci active at the time he has himself possessed.

@Tomothy: I think Nathanross is referring to having the spirit cast and sustain an Increase Attribute - Charisma spell before possession.
fistandantilus4.0
The only potnetially good side against possession is that the possessed becomes dual natured, which leaves them more susceptible to astral attacks/mobbing.
Kyoto Kid
...interesting, didn't know that. "James" (a free spirit I had in the last scenario) would've had a field day in that case.
fistandantilus4.0
Also pg 102 = possession
QUOTE
When a spirit possesses a vessel, the combined being that results is dual natured, hass Immunity to Normal Weapons, and boasts all of the spirit's powers and skills. Occassionally a possessing spirits' nautre manifests through the vessel in an effect similar to a shamanic mask.

Which must be all sorts of fun with the Loa.
The Entropic Wizard
Another point: If you think the possession trad is too broken, just be a GM and tweak it. If the mage/voudoun/shaman/whatever gets HIMSELF possessed of his own volition... well, YOU control him. That'll make him think twice about the power boost he's getting.
fistandantilus4.0
Unless he gets smart and learns the Channeling metamagic right quick.
The Entropic Wizard
From Street Magic
QUOTE
Control is still shared, however. The magician cannot use the spirit's power without expending a service, and resists with the LOWEST mental attribute (the spirits/magician's)

So that's not too bad... helps balance out this chap's Charisma boost deal. And I like to run my games with a fairly fluid interpretations of the rules. You can always slap on a couple more penalties.
fistandantilus4.0
That was the other improvement game balance wise over 3rd edition channeling. In that one you had pretty much free reign, because it lasted for 10 minutes per channeling success. 'Course once it was finished the mage usually was too because the drain was so damn nasty. At least now not everyone can do it.
The Entropic Wizard
Oh, come now. Wouldn't it be utterly delightful if one of your straight-up hermetics in your group suddenly developed the ability to get possessed by insanely powerful spirits AND have most of his control, too? sarcastic.gif biggrin.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Yeah, that happened with an hermetic in one of my games in 3rd edition. The mage was a real big fan of fire spells and spirits. Partly how their team got the name "Plan B". God those guys were terrifying at times. It only got worst when the elven Path mage started using it as well. SR4 channeling is more to my liking. As rough as some of it's parts are, it's much easier to control than SR3's.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (nathanross)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 16 2007, 11:32 PM)
In the interest of discourse, could you be more specific?

I dont know the exact stats of the character, but think:
  • Elf
  • Charisma 7
  • Use spirit to raise Charisma to 12
  • Conjure, bind, and cast spells with 1.5x more drain dice than any other character
Those are the main problems. KK can probably explain the details much better, since I dont actually understand most Magic rules, but I do know what it is like to spend all your BP trying to be a face the normal way, and being totally overshadowed by someone who isn't even willing to roleplay.

That's... really dangerous. Seriously, you're pulling a Force 12 spirit out, you'd better get something awesome for it, because you're resisting an average of 8 Physical Drain - that's almost certain to give you a pile of physical damage that won't go away with Magic. But the really exciting part is that within normal statistical variiance you're going to be resisting up to 16 Physical (and as little as 2) - and at that point you're going to just fucking die.

But be that as it may. A Force 12 Spirit really is "the win" against virtually any situation (assuming that you even survive conjuring it, which even Lofwyr has a very real chance of not doing). It doesn't really matter if the spirit is a materialized or possession spirit at that point. Remember, a Force 12 Spirit of Man really can just throw down a Force 24 Stunball. That'll clear a good portion of a sports stadium.

Dedicated conjurers are really really scary in SR4. High end spirits give out crazy drain, but they also go a whupping and a whomping on people really hard.

---

Possession has the following advantages over materialization:
  • You can get access to higher physical stats than normal.
  • You can use the spirit's immunity to normal weapons to protect yourself.
  • You can use it as a control actions type effect.
But it has the following disadvantages:
  • It's really hard to play astral submarine games, because the spirit needs a body every time it goes dual.
  • In most cases you would have had better overall offense had you conjured up a separate spirit that materialized and left you doing something else while it went on a rampage.
  • The combined you, while highly resilient, causes serious problems for ou if the spirit is disrupted anyway.

So yeah, you can be a guy with an Agility and Reaction of 5 and possess yourself with a big spirit (Force 6 perhaps) and become a crazy badass with an Agility of 11 and a Reaction of 11. And that's crazy bad ass. But you could have just had a materialized Air Spirit that had an Agility of 10 and you'd be right next to it with your Agility of 5 and you'd both be attacking. In SR4 the fact that the base damage on a heavy pistol is equivalent to having scored an additional five hits means that extra attacks are usually better than extra dice on individual attacks.

Possession does big, impressive things. But there's little it can do that compares well to "This is my Fire Elemental. Also, I have a hand grenade."

-Frank
dionysus
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Possession does big, impressive things. But there's little it can do that compares well to "This is my Fire Elemental. Also, I have a hand grenade."

-Frank

This is my fire elemental. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My fire elemental is my best friend...(etc)

(sorry wink.gif )
Kyoto Kid
..@Frank Trolllman

I was actually the GM running the scenario. The spirit the player had possess his character was force 6 (I think also invoked). He had another spirit (in an inanimate vessel) cast and maintain an Increase Attribute - Charisma spell on him that boosted his Charisma from 7 to 12 (max for an elf) by having that spirit throw all it's edge into the casting. All of this was "by the book", but I feel something is terribly broken here.

Also, this player basically has read Street Magic from cover to cover several times. Being admittedly more into the a socio-political and techno angle, I am not as up on all the little tricks and nuances in the magic system that can be exploited.

This and several other incidents have changed things for the future. as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am houseruling a number of things to keep this from occurring again.`

[quote]"This is my Fire Elemental. Also, I have a hand grenade."['quote]
I actually pulled something similar on a team once (back in SR3), with pretty good success. I miss the "original" Hermetic Mage concept.

fool
any mage with spirit of man can have that bound spirit cast an increase attribute spell on himself aand have it sustain the spell indefinitely. That's not particular to possession tradition. In fact, the spirit doesn't even have to stay on the same plane as you and can go back to it's home meta plane. Also, I have known mages to take multiple inc. att. spells so they can be buff bots and get lots of att. at ungodly levels.
One of the draw backs to being possessed is that you do not get the use of any of your own skills. which means no spell casting unless you are being possessed by a spirit of man in which case you get 1 spell. Whhile you do get to use the spirits skills instead, they are at the rating of the spirits force so unless it's force 5 or 6 it's often not going to be particularly powerful in terms of the skills it uses.
Also, if I understand the rules comletely, your physical stats while boosted are still limited to the racial max. So no reaction 10. SO while you may be near impervious to most mundane attacks if you're well armored and possessed by a force six spirit, you aren't going to be able to do most of what you need to do as a a mage- counterspelling, spell casting, siccing spirits on others etc while possessed. Furthermore, you can't sic spirits on others to do physical attacks or actions until they successfully possess something,
As to having the character beg for a boon from a loa, I think many loa would see such actions as being unworthy of the ones who worship them while bargaining would be more appropriate. However, when you're talking about an elf with seven charaisma, ad skill of four, even the force six spirit starts having trouble resisting.
knasser

For me, one of the big issues with possession is reliability. Okay, a force 5 spirit is likely to possess the average security guard, but with an hermetic PC, I get an elemental every time™.

So to expand Frank's list, low-force materialising spirits are still useful. They can fetch, carry and even Force 2 fire elementals can zip around the place setting fire to things, wreaking havoc and taking on basic Lonestar cops. The force 2 possession spirit? Well you could take a dog with you on your runs as a prepared vessel, but possessing random security guards isn't going to go very well and it wont be sufficient to turn you into a combat monster that is happy to charge the enemy.

And aside from these problems, you have less flexibility in facing your opponents. Up against the Red Samurai? Again that much less likely to successfully possess one in a hurry and especially not if they spend some of their edge (and possession attempts certainly merit it). Storming an Insect spirit hive? Tough luck - all your opposition are already inhabited and the best your spirit can do is engage them in Astral Combat. Being pursued by drones? Again, the possession spirit has to be quite a bit higher force to stop them than a materialising spirit would need to be.
Synner
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 18 2007, 06:49 PM)
I was actually the GM running the scenario.  The spirit the player had possess his character was force 6 (I think also invoked).  He had another spirit (in an inanimate vessel) cast and maintain an Increase Attribute - Charisma spell on him that boosted his Charisma from 7 to 12 (max for an elf) by having that spirit throw all it's edge into the casting.  All of this was "by the book", but I feel something is terribly broken here.

As Frank has mentioned Possession has its drawbacks and part of the problem here is you haven't enforced some of them. I'll just address a couple more that jump out from your post above.

To begin with a spirit (possession or otherwise) is an NPC. While GMs like to give their players some leeway in controlling the spirit, the spirit should still act of its own accord and have its own best interests at heart. A player should never have direct control of the spirit's actions let alone its use of Edge (regardless of how nicely he treats it, and with the exception of Channeling). There's even a sidebar to that effect in Street Magic. Furthermore this limitation even applies to self-possession (which should be run as captain's chair rigging, you give directions and the spirit interprets them at its discretion).

Related to this is the built-in limitation of services. The bigger the Force of the spirit you call, the less services you're going to get out of it (as well as greater the risk) and the faster you're going to be using them up by giving them commands (again Street Magic contains some guidelines on where you might want to draw the line in terms of what constitutes a service and what doesn't).

Possession leaves the subject dual natured and astrally active. I shouldn't need to point out the problems this can entail. Also if you're self-possessing you need to worry about that astral mage or spirit sniping at you from the other sice and the fact that you can't use your spell defence.

Finally if your self-possessing and you use up your spirit's services or it get's disrupted half-way through a run, you're probably left in a far worse state than a hermetic or shaman.
Kyoto Kid
Unfortunately this is what I had to deal with...

Roleplaying Possession
A magician possessed by a spirit he summoned
is fully aware of what the spirit is doing,
and is still able to give it commands and directions.
In the interest of fairness, it is suggested
gamemasters allow a player of a possessed magician
to roleplay the spirit that they command
and which is controlling their body. Gamemasters
may want to consider extending this option
to players whose characters are possessed by
“friendly” spirits so that they are not relegated to
the sidelines.

Street Magic Sidebar p 103

Again, The player in question was much more "up" on the magic rules than I was at the time. I learned after the fact that the possessed character was dual natured. Even with this information however, in the scene that took place, things wouldn't have changed much since there as no astral projecting mage present.
hyzmarca
If you use that sidebar then you should also treat every action that the possessed PC performs as a service. Running? That's one service. Stop running? That's another service. Take cover? that's another service. Shoot the guy twice? That's two services.
Considering that possession is, itself, a service, the services add up fast.
Cold-Dragon
ALas, the shooting the guy twice is 1 service, as it does state a general action for a service is just one service, unless you change things up. wink.gif


Bear in mind, GM's who suffer from player-itis, that a powerful spirit is also powerful intelligent (and likewise has a powerful ego). You don't boss around strong spirits lightly, for they can be just as bad as grenades in the bedroom window. It wouldn't go against an annoyed spirit to 'finish' up and leave the possessee standing in the middle of a mine field given the right insult.
Synner
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
Unfortunately this is what I had to deal with...

Roleplaying Possession
<snip>
Street Magic Sidebar p 103

Again, The player in question was much more "up" on the magic rules than I was at the time. I learned after the fact that the possessed character was dual natured. Even with this information however, in the scene that took place, things wouldn't have changed much since there as no astral projecting mage present.

None of that excludes the issues I underlined. The fact that the gamemaster allows the character to roleplay the spirit assumes the player is capable of playing the spirit (and its best interests) and not the conjuring character. This shouldn't give the player control of the spirit's Edge. Regardless, going by what you said the spirit that used Edge to boost and sustain an Increase Charisma spell wasn't even the one possessing the character, but one in an inanimate object.

Anyway, whether you're letting the player run the possessing spirit or the GM is running it based on the player's commands, services are still called for whenever the spirit uses a power or supernatural ability — and services owed by high-force spirits tend to run out pretty quick.

Also note that unless the spirit is using Possession as part of carrying out a complex command (like "Defend me from those security guards") then it functions just like any other power and costs a service (for instance telling it to possess a security guard just to take him out of play).
Kyoto Kid
...ideally, I agree with your points. However, I could easily see doing so would have caused the session to degenerate into a rules debate with the player (who admittedly is the better "rules lawyer" when it comes to the subject of magic). That was something I was really not interested in dealing with for mine or the other players' sakes at the time.

Since this episode, I have spoken to the rest of our group, and everyone is agreement with my houseruling on the issue.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (KK)
I was actually the GM running the scenario. The spirit the player had possess his character was force 6 (I think also invoked). He had another spirit (in an inanimate vessel) cast and maintain an Increase Attribute - Charisma spell on him that boosted his Charisma from 7 to 12 (max for an elf) by having that spirit throw all it's edge into the casting. All of this was "by the book", but I feel something is terribly broken here.


Obviously it wasn't done by the book, because while the spirit is possessing him his Charisma is replaced by that of the Spirit. That means that he would need to score 6 hits on an Increase Attribute spell to go from 6 to 12 rather than 5 hits to go from 7 to 12. So there's no advantage here for the spellcaster to be possessed.

And on that subject, how the heck did the player get to decide when a spirit was going to throw Edge into casting? You only get to decide when you throw your own Edge. You don't get to spend other peoples' Edge under any circumstances. A spirit is your ally, friend, or maybe servant, but it isn't you. You no more get to spend a spirit's edge than you get to spend the edge of NPCs who you have used Control Thoughts upon.

QUOTE (fool)
In fact, the spirit doesn't even have to stay on the same plane as you and can go back to it's home meta plane.


It doesn't have to stay on the same plane, but if it goes back to its home metaplane it is essentially "out of play" and won't be sustaining anything. But oyu can have it hide on the Astral in Tahiti while it sustains spells on you - that's perfectly legit.

QUOTE (fool)
Also, if I understand the rules comletely, your physical stats while boosted are still limited to the racial max. So no reaction 10.


Nope, he's not bound by Elven racial maximums - he's a spirit at that point. So he can have the Reaction of 10. It's nothing you couldn't get by sending an Air Spirit out in front (at much less personal risk I might add), but you can totally get that 10 Reaction this way.

---

It sounds like the player of the houngan has made a much more effective character than the other PCs. I'm guessing that the street sam in your game isn't using Called Shots with Sniper Rifles to blast through spirit defenses (12P, -7 AP, "Immunity to Normal Weapons" can suck it).

But I would suggest at least considering the enforcement of the rules before you start making new ones.

-Frank
Kyoto Kid
...not so much created a more effective character as twinked it.

Admittedly, I was at at the disadvantage since the player acquired & read Street Magic before I was able to get my own copy. By the time I realised just how powerful this made the character, it was in a sense too late & I felt was playing catch up. I still have not read through all of the sourcebook since I have been devoting most of my free time gearing up for the second run of my Rhapsody In Shadow (SR3) campaign.
FrankTrollman
So for those of us who have read (or even written) the section exhaustively, what is it that the Possession mage does that is more powerful than what a regular materialization mage could do?

Once we figure out exactly what it is that the player is doing, we can accurately prognosticate what the drawbacks of that technique might be (such as "that's not actually legal" as seems to be the case on the Charisma boosting on several levels).

-Frank
ornot
As far as I can tell, all the rules for the increased charisma trick are in the core book.

-Summon Spirit of Man;
-Bind it (this is important if you intend to summon any other spirits, which is ultimately the only reason for this trick);
-Request that it cast and sustain increase Charisma on you (the mage must have the increase charisma spell, and have summoned at least a force 3 spirit, for it to have the innate spell power) Edge remains at the whim of the GM. No instructing the spirit to use Edge, (or overcast, at GM discretion);
-Bingo. You have an improved charisma spell sustained on you pretty much indefinately. Provided, of course, that the spell drain didn't disrupt the spirit. You also have a big glowy aura about you that will set off wards or get disrupted and make you painfully obvious on the astral plain.

Of course, the sidebar on p178 suggests that a -2 dice modifier to all tests, similar to a sustaining penalty, be imposed for each bound spirit actively performing a service (which the sustaining spirit is). I would also consider this an abuse of the spirit, inclined to make it want to hurt you.

If anyone can see anything wrong with my interpretations, feel free to tell me.
cristomeyers
Everything looks ok from my perspective, but I also agree that you're right on abuse of the spirit. Being treated like a little charisma factory is probably going to irk the spirit just a bit and it's going to be looking for ways to screw you.
fool
If you have it sustain it indefinitely, say for weeks or months on end, certainly it would be abusive, but if you burn a service for each run (assuming the run takes no more than a few days,) then it probably wouldn't be getting angry at you.

THat is where the balancing problem is is that it requires lots of services to pull these tricks off and that costs nuyen.gif and runs the risk of the character getting knocked out or killed.

As far as having the spirit use its edge, the mage can certainly request it (when worded right for role playing purposes and it's up to the gm to decide how the spirit will react, it might be a good place to call for a negotiate roll, or just have the gm decide one way or another.

knasser
QUOTE (ornot)
As far as I can tell, all the rules for the increased charisma trick are in the core book.

-Summon Spirit of Man;
-Bind it (this is important if you intend to summon any other spirits, which is ultimately the only reason for this trick);
-Request that it cast and sustain increase Charisma on you (the mage must have the increase charisma spell, and have summoned at least a force 3 spirit, for it to have the innate spell power) Edge remains at the whim of the GM. No instructing the spirit to use Edge, (or overcast, at GM discretion);
-Bingo. You have an improved charisma spell sustained on you pretty much indefinately. Provided, of course, that the spell drain didn't disrupt the spirit. You also have a big glowy aura about you that will set off wards or get disrupted and make you painfully obvious on the astral plain.

Of course, the sidebar on p178 suggests that a -2 dice modifier to all tests, similar to a sustaining penalty, be imposed for each bound spirit actively performing a service (which the sustaining spirit is). I would also consider this an abuse of the spirit, inclined to make it want to hurt you.

If anyone can see anything wrong with my interpretations, feel free to tell me.


Nothing wrong with your interpretation, but I'd point out the level of spirit power involved. The Increase Attribute spells need to be cast at a force of at least the (augmented) attribute they're trying to raise. So if you're an elf with a Charisma of 7, you're going to need a Force 7 spirit to cast the spell. ( I would not allow a player to demand a spirit overcast on his behalf). Not only that, but in order for this to be useful for summoning, it has to be a bound Force 7 spirit. That's both expensive and dangerous and if a player really chooses to blow an expensive Force 7 spirit service on a temporary Charisma boost, I'm probably not going to mind too much when I think what else they could do with it. wink.gif

The above changes slightly if the spirit overcasts, but then a lot of things become more powerful if spirits are treated as utter slaves. I will sometimes have a summoned spirit spend edge on a service, or overcast, etc. But only when the spirit is particularly enthusiastic or motivated about the task. For example, a forest spirit summoned to fight a corporate logging operation or a beast spirit that particularly revels in combat (I once had a powerful summoned Beast spirit stick around after its services were expended just because it was enjoying the carnage too much. The mage player loved it as it continued tearing through the compound killing and devouring anything in its path). In the normal run of things though, no edge, and no overcasting. And certainly neither under the player's control.
ornot
I purposefully left out the charisma of the mage in question. You're quite correct that in order to cast the spell at a high enough force (and not be disrupted by the spell drain) you'd need a pretty high force spirit. I definately agree with you that the spirit will only overcast or spend edge at GM discretion, and GMs must remain firm in the face of probable complaints from the player.

It's worth noting that there appears to be no check on how long you can have a spirit sustain a spell on you. I see no reference to when the binding fails save for when all the spirits services are expended. So as far as I can tell you can have a bound spirit sustaining a spell indefinately.

Of course I would then impose the -2 dice bound spirit penalty, so the mage may as well be sustaining it himself. As for the costs of the binding components, that might not be much of a disincentive for most mages, although the probable injury from summoning and binding such a spirit might.
laughingowl
Personally:

Edge can not be forced, spirit may CHOSE to use edge if it likes the mage and feels it is important but can not be compelled.

Overcasting CAN be compelled but is defiantly an abuse.

Just my two nuyen
FrankTrollman
Personally, I would never use the optional rule where Bound Spirits cause a -2 sustaining penalty. That's an optional rule that is there for absolute last resort since it completely kills the bouns spirit as a provider of services.

Consider "Spell Binding" - an absolute last resort that allows you to have a spirit take control of a spell you cast and sustain it for days at the cost of its own life. All that does is get rid of a -2 penalty you were getting for sustaining a spell. If having the spirit do that also required you to take on a -2 penalty, it would be completely zero sum. You'd be kiling your spirit for absolutely nothing.

If bound spirits cause a -2 penalty, then bound spirits are worthless. They literally don't do anything at all. So that's an available rule that is only for essentially ripping the nipples off of conjurers if they get uppity.

-Frank
knasser
QUOTE (ornot @ Mar 20 2007, 01:16 AM)
It's worth noting that there appears to be no check on how long you can have a spirit sustain a spell on you. I see no reference to when the binding fails save for when all the spirits services are expended. So as far as I can tell you can have a bound spirit sustaining a spell indefinately.


???

QUOTE (SR4 @ pg.179)
A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a
spell in the appropriate category. While the spirit maintains
the spell, the magician does not suffer any sustaining modifiers
for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period
equal to the spirit’s Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the
spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services, for example, can
only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns.
The magician can take
over sustaining the spell as the spirit finishes this service (or at
any time) so that the spell does not end. If a spirit is disrupted
or banished while sustaining a spell, the spell ends.


And further down:

QUOTE

   Similar to Spell Sustaining, a magician can also engage
a bound spirit for Spell Binding, maintaining a spell
for even longer periods. Doing so, however, irrevocably depletes the spirit’s Force. A spirit can maintain a spell for a number of days equal to its Force. Each day, or part thereof, permanently reduces the spirit’s Force by 1. When its Force reaches 0, it disappears, completely consumed—which explains why spirits dislike this service and will grow reluctant to aid a magician who abuses spirits this way. The magician can release the spirit before it runs out of Force in order to end the spell ahead of schedule, but the spirit is still free of its bond. Spell Binding uses up all of a bound spirit’s remaining services.


Did you mean an inherent spell, from the power? You could easily use the same as above for this, though at the very most, depending on spell, you'd get until the next sunrise or sunset, I think.

-K.
WhiskeyMac
Wow Kyoto Kid, you have some jacked up players. They use rulebooks that you have no access to and make broad interpretations of the rules therein. I would tell everyone in your group that if they get a book and expect to use rules from it then you have to borrow it for a day and then you might let them. That's just totally powergaming there. No way would I allow someone in my group to use rules from a book I haven't even read yet.

Oh yeah, the best thing to say to a rules lawyer is: You're right the rulebook does say that but I'm the GM and right now I say that it works differently. After this session we can discuss it, until then my rules.
FrankTrollman
He is indeed talking about the Spirit of Man's Innate Spell power. That can cast and sustain a spell for as long as the spirit remains.

The background "spell sustaining" ability that all bound spirits get is extremely crappy. But a Spirit of Man really can cast one of your spells and sustain it indefinitely.

-Frank
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Wow Kyoto Kid, you have some jacked up players. They use rulebooks that you have no access to and make broad interpretations of the rules therein. I would tell everyone in your group that if they get a book and expect to use rules from it then you have to borrow it for a day and then you might let them. That's just totally powergaming there. No way would I allow someone in my group to use rules from a book I haven't even read yet.

Oh yeah, the best thing to say to a rules lawyer is: You're right the rulebook does say that but I'm the GM and right now I say that it works differently. After this session we can discuss it, until then my rules.

...yes that is a good route to go. However, dealing with such forceful and overbearing players has made me turn to just throwing up my hands & saying OK, fine, simply because I want to keep things moving along for the other players in the group.

Both Synner and Frank have helped a lot on this issue and I am just content to read their suggestions rather than make any more comments on the topic at this time.
knasser
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
He is indeed talking about the Spirit of Man's Innate Spell power. That can cast and sustain a spell for as long as the spirit remains.

The background "spell sustaining" ability that all bound spirits get is extremely crappy. But a Spirit of Man really can cast one of your spells and sustain it indefinitely.

-Frank


Then I stick to my closing comments, that the rules for sustaining one of your own spells are a good guideline for sustaining one of the spirit's. And failing that then the traditional sunrise / sunset barrier should be the ultimate line-drawing, imo.

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...yes that is a good route to go. However, dealing with such forceful and overbearing players has made me turn to just throwing up my hands & saying OK, fine, simply because I want to keep things moving along for the other players in the group.


My instinct is to say make a stand and stick to your guns. But if that doesn't work for you, then I suggest applying some poetic justice to the matter... if a player finds an exploit or powerful technique, then the GM has the resources to apply the same thing right back at them even harder. Just wait until they meet the troll samurai possessed by a powerful shadow spirit. wink.gif

Good luck, anyhow.

-K.
ornot
Just to clarify. The only way that I can see for a spirit to sustain an improved charisma spell for any length of time is to use a bound spirit of man with its innate spell power. True, any spirit can take over sustaining a spell a mage casts, but only for a brief period before it is consumed. If the spirit is bound then the spell does not expire at sunrise or sunset, but lasts indefinately.

The sidebar that suggests a -2 dicepool modifier for each active bound spirits does suggest that it is only imposed if the spirit is getting uppity and trying to escape control of the mage. Basically it's a GM hammer for slapping Mages that try this kind of "my bound spirit casts and sustains this spell forme at no penalty" trick.
twilite
I have a question about Possession and Channeling for Mystic Adepts:

In either state, do the spirit/caster have access to the Mystic Adept powers?

In the Possession description on p102

"The spirit is in full physical control of the vessel, but does not have access to the host’s knowledge, skills, or experience."

That does not mention Adept Powers as lost, although:

"While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used (which means that a possessed technomancer cannot access Resonance), with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the spirit’s normal Initiative Passes)."

Technically, the Magic Attribute attribute is what gives the Adept powers- but there is no distinction between a normal or Spirit's Magic Attribute and an Adept's Magic Attribute- how they get to use them is defined by the perq Adept, which is also not mentioned in the list of thing's the spirit does not have access to. If they are not allowed, then can the spirit (or caster if channeling) get access to things like totem bonuses and such- they too are nonexplicit in the Possession rules, and are like modifications of the magic nature of the caster. Finally, does the reliance on the Spirit's magic attribute mean that if you are possessed by a spirit with a higher force than your magic attribute, you would get more adept powers? Does the spirit have to split his up between casting and Adept?

In Channeling on p55 they only mention:

"The Channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control
over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power (see p. 101). Control is still shared, however, and the magician is unable to tap the possessing spirit’s powers without expending a service."

which makes no explicit mention either of Adept powers, and so does not answer the question. In addition, though, if you did get more Adept powers due to the higher magic of the spirit, would they require a service to use because they belong to the spirit, not you?
ornot
I'd say that while Possessed there is no access to adept powers, and that an increased magic due to Channeling does not bestow additional adept powers.

In the case of Possession an exception could be made for always-on- physical-only powers such as Iron Lungs and maybe even Enhanced Reflexes. I would be inclined to suggest that they wouldn't stack with equivalent spirit powers, but would superscede them in cases where the host might be physically stronger or tougher than the spirit.

I'd be curious what 'ware a possessing spirit could still use. Does any of it still function, or does it require training to turn on wired reflexes, activate pheremones, etc.?
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