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Guye Noir
Two in fact. First: Does Mystic Armor stack with the Armor spell? Based on the descriptions I would think it does, and I can't find anything that explicitly forbids it.

Second: What happens to the target of a Control Thoughts spell when not given orders? Under the description of Control Actions the book states that the subject can act freely if not given any orders. Is it the same for Control Thoughts, or does the target just stand around doing nothing waiting for an order?
Glyph
1) Yes.

2) Unclear, but I would assume the latter (waiting for orders), since I see no reason that it wouldn't be explicitly mentioned if it was the former.
Guye Noir
QUOTE (Glyph)
2) Unclear, but I would assume the latter (waiting for orders), since I see no reason that it wouldn't be explicitly mentioned if it was the former.

That seems a little... broken to me. If used in combat that effectively means removing an enemy from combat for at least (force) turns, if not longer (assuming it can be sustained). Suppose a thought-controlled enemy without orders is shot at; does he at least get to roll reaction, or is he just a sitting duck?
Farceseer Siranaul
It might depend on what the last order was given.
Ravor
Well if I remember correctly, usually life-threatening orders calls for another Resistance Check, so I'd imagine that a life threatening lack of orders would do so as well.
Guye Noir
QUOTE (Ravor)
Well if I remember correctly, usually life-threatening orders calls for another Resistance Check, so I'd imagine that a life threatening lack of orders would do so as well.

Sounds reasonable to me, but I can't seem to find the rule myself. I hate to be difficult, but could I get a page reference?
Glyph
Ravor is remembering correctly... only he is remembering SR3. smile.gif

However, in SR4, victims of mental manipulation spells automatically get to spend a complex action to shake off the mental control every (Force) Combat Turns, so it's not a good idea to keep a controlled subject on "standby" too long. (pg. 202).

Actually, re-reading the spell reinforces my initial answer to question #2. The first sentence reads "The caster seizes control of the target's mind, directing everything the target does." So it sounds like the target of the spell isn't free to act in between orders.
Guye Noir
QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 17 2007, 05:23 PM)
However, in SR4, victims of mental manipulation spells automatically get to spend a complex action to shake off the mental control every (Force) Combat Turns, so it's not a good idea to keep a controlled subject on "standby" too long.  (pg. 202).

I remember that. The reason I bring this up is I have a mage in my group who seems particularly fond of that spell. We haven't started playing yet, but I'm having nightmares where Johnsons pay the 'runners their entire life savings, and Lone Star officers spontaneously turn their own guns on themselves. I'm just trying to find some way of balancing that out other than (F/2)+2 boxes of stun.

However, I just happened to be reading through the NPC section and noticed that professionalism rating is also used as Edge. I didn't know that before.
Tomothy
I think if you messed with a Johnson like that you would get burned. Even if you managed to make him forget everything he'd done, there's still digital and astral evidence. When they found out they've been done over, they will try and find out how it happened. You will get caught.
apollo124
QUOTE (Guye Noir)
I remember that. The reason I bring this up is I have a mage in my group who seems particularly fond of that spell. We haven't started playing yet, but I'm having nightmares where Johnsons pay the 'runners their entire life savings, and Lone Star officers spontaneously turn their own guns on themselves. I'm just trying to find some way of balancing that out other than (F/2)+2 boxes of stun.

However, I just happened to be reading through the NPC section and noticed that professionalism rating is also used as Edge. I didn't know that before.

As I've mentioned on other threads, the absolute number one way to make yourself the top of the "Most Wanted" list by the Star is to kill an officer, and if you whack several at once by magic, they are going to go after the killer with all speed and no mercy.

Also, any Johnson who knows his fake id from his shoes knows that he is meeting with "criminals who commit heinous crimes for money" and will prepare for that by only bringing the money to the meet that he thinks is going to be needed.

There is still a save involved, so if your jedi-wanna-be tries to mindtrick the wrong guy, he may just end up with a nosebleed and a ticked off opponent.
Glyph
Spells leave signatures, so a mage trying to get a Lone Star officer to turn his own gun on himself won't be committing a crime with no evidence - the suiciding itself isn't game-breaking, since it's about the same as manabolting the Lone Star officer to death.

Anyone dumb enough to mess with a Johnson that way, without a really good reason, will probably lose his fixer contact who set up the job, have the Johnson sending goons after him, and have a difficult time getting work in the shadows again.

And remember, the victim still has his/her memories - and the alter memory spell doesn't last forever, either.

Furthermore, Johnsons and Lone Star officers are two of the most likely types to have someone else giving them spell defense.
Seyluun
As a campaign-wrecker, Influence is far more dangerous than Control Thought. Since there dont seem to be anything offical on this, the GM has to be creative to find a way to counter the mage tossing Influences in a crowd, getting each of the victims to make a mental transfer payement to one of the runner numerous offshore bank accounts.
cristomeyers
I think it's pretty well established that direct combat and most mental manipulation spells are pretty unbalanced against mundanes.

The drain on direct combat isn't high enough to deter from overcasting, force 12 manabolt=6P drain, and any mage/shaman worth anything is going to be throwing around 10 dice at that. They cast their Smite spell against the average mundane's Willpower of 3 and walk away with around 2-3 boxes of physical. Mundane never even had a chance.

Mindprobe, influence, control thoughts are pretty much the same way. Throwing around 10 dice vs a mundane's willpower. Unless they have a maxed willpower and spell resistance, there's very little chance of success against the spell.

Mages used to have to work for their spells to work, now they pretty much need to say "bang, you're dead" and watch the guy's neural network fry or get shot by his partner.
Glyph
Nah... mages used to have it easy. With variable TN's, a Force: 6 spell was extremely difficult to resist, and a mage could often cast a Force: 6, D damage spell and soak all of the Drain. And they could start out with higher-rated foci, and didn't have the rule that only one focus could add its dice to any test. And some Totems added 3 dice for Combat spells. A Priority: A dwarven sorcerer could have Sorcery: 6, a mana bolt focus: 6, a combat spell focus: 3, and the Dragonslayer Totem, rolling 18 dice. (very impressive in an edition that didn't use the skill + Attribute mechanic), using all of his spell pool and a Willpower of 8 to spend 14 dice to soak Drain (against a TN of 2, assuming a Force: 6 manabolt with a fetish limitation to lower Drain). Even a character with a Willpower of 6 (which was pretty effective a lot of the time) would have the odds stacked against him.


But neither is really unbalancing. As someone said once, one of the premises of the game is "eggshells with hammers", meaning that it is easy to have a lethal one-shot attack, but not so easy to resist one. Mundanes have their Willpower and/or Body, Edge, and possibly counterspelling. Sure, a PC mage can wipe out normal guards, but so can the adept and the sammie. Try affecting a party with decent Willpower and Edge with a mage or two using counterspelling, using the corporate lieutenant, and see if his 6 dice can even get past the counterspelling. PCs should outclass the grunts, who are only a threat due to numbers, coordination, and the home ground advantage.
Cold-Dragon
Let's not forget big spells leave big 'splashes' to be detected too, they'll last half the day if you can actually manage to use a force 12 spell!

So unless you then spend several rounds after making someone's head explode to clean up your mess, doing that just a few times can quickly lead to you being stalked. Discretion is a mages best friend if the GM has problems with him/her.

Alternately, the best mundane defense against mind control (besides counter magic) is the buddy system and the shotgun system. You get mind controlled, buddy shotguns mage. Mage has to make a check to keep the spell in motion (unless they stuck it into a focus) and if you're lucky they'll drop the spell. That, or you kill the mage. Either works.

There's no perfect solutions - magic is technically designed to have an edge on the world. frown.gif But there are many methods of foiling it. A mage has to be careful with his/her orders in some situations - shooting your 'allies' might not include shooting around the mage to get at the ally directly opposite of the controlled. Make it a requirement for the mage to think fast in how he/she should order things.
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