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nathanross
Hello, me and my GM were arguing about how much Karma it costs to increase Magic that has been lowered by Bioware or Cyberware.

In 3rd this was easy, since Magic was Essence+Initiatory Grade-1/2 Bio Index rounded down.

Now since you have to pay for magic seperately, at new Magic rating x 3 karma, with a max of Essence + Initiatory Grade rounded down, how much do you have to pay to increase it if it has been dropped by bioware?

He says that there is a total Magic attribute that you improve that is then lowered by bioware, so that if you were at 5 and took some Muscle Toner that lowered your Magic to 4, to increase Magic to 5 you have to pay 18 karma, as if you were raising it to 6.

I say you only have to pay to raise it 5, so only 15 karma.

Can someone clarify this? Ive read through BBB and can find no mention of how improving magic is any different than any other Att. On a side note, if you increase Agility with Muscle Toner, how much do you have to pay to increase Agility, the pre-augmented value, the post-augmented value, or can you not increase it though training?

Please give page numbers.
Jack Kain
Say you have a magic of 5 and you get one point of essence worth or less in bioware/cyberware.


Your magic is then 4. HOWEVER for the purposes of raising your magic its 5.

So record it on your sheet as 5(4)


Due to cyber and such its lower then it should be but its still 5 for the purposes of raising it to 6.



Stats are increased via the pre-augmented value.
Mistwalker
I have to agree with your GM

I note Magic the same way that the other attributes are noted when augmentation comes into play

Ex.: Strength 6(9)
Magic 5(4)

dont' have my books handy right at the moment
pestulens
Acording to RAW you are coerect, points of magic are lost by taking bio and cyberwar. However your GM has every right to over-ride RAW on this one because It is sutch an obvious balance issue.
As has been stated before, when you rase an attribute with karma you rase the natural attribute. The only time when you rase an augmented value with Karma is when you have the Improved ability adept power. (Not counting new or increased adept powers as rased with Karma in this case BTW)
Mistwalker
Pestulens,

I think you missed that the Magic attribute is not like the other attributes, it is unlimited, no caps.
nathanross
QUOTE
Acording to RAW you are coerect, points of magic are lost by taking bio and cyberwar. However your GM has every right to over-ride RAW on this one because It is sutch an obvious balance issue.

While I know I will have to live with any rules the GM decides, I do not see it as a power issue. First of all, with the new rules for improving Magic, adpets are f***ed. Not including Initiation, going from 6 starts at 21, then 24, 27, 30, etc. This is expensive and entirely unfair to adepts. Sure, they are unlimited and can do other crazy things that others cant, but Sammys and MAGES will be kicking more ass than adepts for a very long time. The only loophole in this progression of hell, is to get Synaptic and drop magic to 4, then raise it to 5, buy some more, and repeat.

And speak RAW, that is the argument here, not houserules.
hyzmarca
It wouldn't be 5(4) it would just be plain 4. Magic loss isn't a negative augmentation. It is a plain and simple reduction of the base attribute, the same as burning Edge.
However, magic loss also reduces the attribute maximum.
Essentially, magic loss is noted and acts in the same manner as a racial modifier.

So yes, it is cheaper to raise magic to to 5 again than it is to raise magic to 6. However, this is offset by the facts that if your magic is reduced to 0 then you burn out and implants are always considered to come after Awakening if taken during chargen.
If you take a character with a magic rating of 2, install 1 essence point worth of cyber and then raise his magic, repeating 5 times, it'll cost you 30 karma + the cost one 1 initiation. The downside is that you have an extremely gimped magician and you'll have to initiate two or three more times to make him competitive. Since this only confers an advantage to people who want to start pitifully weak and nearly burnout several times during gameplay, I don't see any balance problems.

The only time magic is augmented is when a power focus is used, which I suppose means that the usefulness of a Power Focus is limited by a magician's augmented magic cap. If you note magic loss as a simple negative augmentation then power foci become that much more powerful. It just isn't worth it.
Glyph
A power focus doesn't increase the Magic rating (note: this is different than it was in SR3). It adds its Force to all tests where magic is included, but it is only a dice pool bonus. A mage with a Magic of 4 and a rating: 2 power focus would have 2 more dice when casting a Force: 5 spell, but would still be taking physical Drain for casting a spell higher than his/her Magic Attribute.
lorechaser
From another thread, quoting someone:

QUOTE


So, I didn't believe you, and had to check with the man upstairs ...

QUOTE (Me)
Let's say I have an awakened character with a Magic Attribute of 4. He gets 3 full points of 'ware installed, binging his effective Magic Attribute down to 1 (technically 4 [1]). If I then choose to use Karma to increase his Magic Attribute, would it cost me 6 Karma or 15 Karma to raise his effective Magic Attribute to 5 [2]?


QUOTE (Rob Boyle)
I could have sworn I covered this in the FAQ. Hrm.

The answer is: it would cost you 6 (ie, you're buying from 1 to 2).

Note that Magic lost from Essence loss is (semi-)permanent. If you get 3 Essence points of 'ware installed, your Magic goes from 4 to 1, not 4 (1). Your max. natural Magic rating also drops from 6 to 3.

TheRedRightHand
So you would then have to start Initiating after raising your magic to 3 if you wanted to get it any higher?
Magus
Correct. Every point lost to cyber/bio enhancements is another piece of your soul. It just means you have to start initiating sooner, which cost more Karma in the long run.
Mistwalker
Shakes his head

That is something that would have been nice to have had in the FAQ
Ravor
It's also something that I hope that the devs change their minds on, even if it does say good things for characters who have had to burn Edge to pull a 'Hand of God'.

However, with this ruling then you should be able to build a character who burnt out a point for Cyber with Magic 5 for only 50+ BPs instead of 65+ BPs in order to remain logically consistant.

It's one of the reasons that I'm this close to simply throwing up my hands and house-ruling that installing cyber/bio doesn't actually cause Magic Loss, it just lowers your max cap. (Yes, I understand that this would be a boon to min-maxers everywhere, and that it would really encourage mages/adepts to install choice pieces of cyber, but I'm not sure that is really such a bad thing given that the devs themselves have already gone at least half-way there.)
Mistwalker
QUOTE (Ravor)
However, with this ruling then you should be able to build a character who burnt out a point for Cyber with Magic 5 for only 50+ BPs instead of 65+ BPs in order to remain logically consistant.

Well, no, I don't see anyone being able to get away with that.

You pay 25 BP for the attribute cap that is you last point available for that attribute. So, if you attribute cap was lowered to 5, then going from 4 to 5 would cost you 25 BP, not 10 BP.
hyzmarca
The issue with chargen is purely one of order of operations. You buy your qualities and your attributes before you buy your cyberware. According to the rules, characters with Latent Awakening don't suffer direct magic loss from pre-awakening essence loss if they awaken but they do suffer magic loss for all subsequent essence loss.

QUOTE (Mistwalker)
You pay 25 BP for the attribute cap that is you last point available for that attribute. So, if you attribute cap was lowered to 5, then going from 4 to 5 would cost you 25 BP, not 10 BP.


Quite. But the cost of going from 1 to 4 is 30BP
30+25=55. Ravor was 5 short, but otherwise the math works.

If chargen essence loss is applied like a racial minus to the magic cap then you don't have to buy extra magic to offset essence loss.
nathanross
Thanks lorechaser, that should clear everything up.
QUOTE (Magus)
Correct. Every point lost to cyber/bio enhancements is another piece of your soul. It just means you have to start initiating sooner, which cost more Karma in the long run.

Oh please do your math before you post!

I dont even need to calculate how much karma in adept powers it costs to buy the equivalent of basic muscle toner, muscle aug, or even synaptic booster. Sure you have to initiate, buy magic (albeit at a MUCH cheaper rate), and then pay for the new ware, but that is soooooooo much cheaper (especially using ordeal and group for initiation which is only 8 karma for grade 1, 10 karma for grade 2) than the hundreds of karma it takes to use the Improved physical attribute power to raise your stats +3 over maximum for 2 seperate physical attributes.
Ravor
Bah, as long as the basic point is sound I'm happy considering that it's nearly 01:00 my time. rotfl.gif
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