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Guye Noir
So, going through the rules for Adept powers, I notice that using the power Improved Physical Attribute allows the character to raise an attribute up to it's racial maximum for 1 power point per point of attribute. However, raising the attribute above the racial maximum costs 2 power points per point of attribute.

There is a slight problem: Suppose a character uses BPs to raise his agility to one point below it's racial max 5. He then spends one power point on the adept power Improved Attribute to raise his agility by one point 5(6). After a few 'runs this character decides to spend some karma to raise his natural agility by one point. His new agility score is 6(7), but he didn't have to spend extra power points to raise that attribute above it's racial max. He essentially spent 1 power point on something that was supposed to cost 2.

So... was this done on purpose? Is this supposed to be allowed? Also, why do Adepts have to "pay" extra to raise an attribute above its natural maximum while mundanes don't? In contrast to the Improve Attribute power, cyberware/bioware that raises attribute scores cost the same regardless if it's above or below the racial max.

These are the kinds of thoughts I have at 2:30 in the morning when I can't sleep.
Ravor
Well given your situation I'd rule that his power goes dormant until he juices it up by raising his Magic/Power Points.

As for the cyber/bio question, well I suppose that it is because the Awaken has just as much access to it as Mundanes do, while no matter what, a Mundane can't use Adept powers. Plus, ware tends to show up on scanners while Adept powers can only be detected via Magic. True, bio doesn't, but I fully expect to see some minor downsides to Bio in order to compensate once Fourth's version of Man and Machine is released.
nathanross
If you raise a physical attribute to the Racial Max using Improved Physical Attribute adept power, you can no longer improve that attribute naturally. To further increase it, you have to pay 2 power points. The adept power does not work like Muscle Toner and Augmentation where the increase it on top of what you increase normally.

There is no point in even thinking about using the adept power, it is just a total waste of time and karma (well over 40, since 2 magic increases and at least 1 initiation).

Just go for the bioware, SOOOOOO much cheaper, and pay to increase from 4 to 5 instead of 6 to 8, etc. Im pretty sure eveyone is in agreement about how increasing magic works, may be wrong.
ornot
Sure you can just fill your adept with bioware, but is it necessarily in character? Doing it just for the most efficient use of points is very twinky.

Frankly saving 1 PP in this one instance is not much of a loophole. The adept still has to pay lots of karma (IIRC he pays to raise his attribute as if it was 6, not 5), and it only has an impact in that one situation.
nathanross
QUOTE (ornot)
Sure you can just fill your adept with bioware, but is it necessarily in character? Doing it just for the most efficient use of points is very twinky.

You're right of course and it is not for everybody. However, the fact that he is posting about a loophole he thinks he sees gives me some idea of his personality. You can justify ware in an adept, though he may be more fun without.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Guye Noir @ Mar 19 2007, 12:32 AM)
So... was this done on purpose?  Is this supposed to be allowed?  Also, why do Adepts have to "pay" extra to raise an attribute above its natural maximum while mundanes don't?  In contrast to the Improve Attribute power, cyberware/bioware that raises attribute scores cost the same regardless if it's above or below the racial max.

Cyberware and bioware should really be cheaper than adept powers, especially given the "life is cheap, your soul is expendable" theme in SR. wink.gif

Do you stay pure, and struggle harder, or do you take the quick and easy route, destroying a bit of yourself in the process?

Because you can't try to tell me that adepts in SR don't know that it's much easier to just install Muscle Toner 2 than to develop their adept powers.

If we've had that conversation, then there have been symposiums and fist fights over it in the SR world too. wink.gif

To say that it's "twinky" to install cyber ignores a whole realm of interesting RP options. To be an adept that doesn't choose bio, you do have to be somewhat of an elitist, in the game. You have to decide that your purity is worth more than efficiency. And you probably look down on those that don't feel that way. You probably consider them "twinky" as well.

But the idea that a player is somehow playing wrong by making that choice annoys me to no end. wink.gif
Cakeman
It says in the Improved Physical Attribute description that "If you later want to increase the attribute using Karma (see p. 264), the cost is based on the total attribute, including the magical improvements."

So the stat after one adept point is not 5(6) but 6(6), in my book. You pay karma as if raising 6 to 7 when improving that. Adding cyber should be on top of this stat, if it doesn't eat up the magicpoint connected to the statincrease.
Guye Noir
nathanross: This isn't for my character. Actually, I'm the GM, and I think one of my characters might be doing what I described. I don't really mind too much, like I said before, it was 2am and I couldn't sleep.

lorechaser: Interesting way of looking at it, I hadn't thought of that. I'll tell the player in question about what you said, I think it'll go well with his uncouth quality wink.gif

Cakeman: I didn't see that, I'll keep it in mind.
ornot
QUOTE (lorechaser)
/snip

To say that it's "twinky" to install cyber ignores a whole realm of interesting RP options. To be an adept that doesn't choose bio, you do have to be somewhat of an elitist, in the game. You have to decide that your purity is worth more than efficiency. And you probably look down on those that don't feel that way. You probably consider them "twinky" as well.

But the idea that a player is somehow playing wrong by making that choice annoys me to no end. wink.gif

I did say if his only reason for doing it was more efficient use of points it would be twinky.

Sure, if someone can come up with a reasonable background reason, there's no reason why they shouldn't have 'ware.

I do think that magic demands a certain degree of dedication though, so I would suggest that adepts investing only 1 or 2 points of Magic into powers and burning 3 or 4 on 'ware aren't terribly dedicated to the way of the adept. Of course it also depends on the path said adept follows, which probably has a greater influence on the extent to which a character views magic as a tool or a gift.
Jaid
i can't say i feel it makes even the least amount of sense that the adept should pay double for attribute points beyond their natural max anyways. my personal solution: ignore the doubling rule. it's stupid, and doesn't serve to balance anything. cyber is already cheaper by a longshot (or at least, bioware is), and the improved attribute power is not one of those horribly broken things in the game, even if you do allow it without doubling for above natural maximum, imo.
laughingowl
I have to admit on the meta-gaming versus character view points.


My TM seriously SHOULD get bioware/cyber to fleshout some stuff, and have the contacts and money right now to do it.

Meta-gaming: It would be the absolute best thing to do.

However: In character, AI's flesh is a pure as the day she was born, and especially now with immersed fairly deep in traditional japannese culture purposely replace her soul with soulless matter goes trongly against character concept.
nathanross
TMs and resonance are a completely different matter. The fact that your response, firewall, system, signal and all programs instantaneously drop by 1 point sucks WAY worse than the hit Adepts or mages take from Magic loss.
laughingowl
QUOTE (nathanross)
TMs and resonance are a completely different matter. The fact that your response, firewall, system, signal and all programs instantaneously drop by 1 point sucks WAY worse than the hit Adepts or mages take from Magic loss.

all the more reason 'meta-gaming' I should do it now..... resonance 7 -> 6 (essence loss) -> 7 is MUCH cheaper then.

resonance 8 -> 7 (essence loss) -> 8

(By RAW and clarification from Rob Boyle)

I really really should get any ware I am before I up my resoance again (heck should have done it before I upped it at all) however; character concept still says why would she do it...

Really wanting a in character option (see my other post on TM adepts.....)
lorechaser
QUOTE (laughingowl)
QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 19 2007, 11:41 PM)
TMs and resonance are a completely different matter. The fact that your response, firewall, system, signal and all programs instantaneously drop by 1 point sucks WAY worse than the hit Adepts or mages take from Magic loss.

all the more reason 'meta-gaming' I should do it now..... resonance 7 -> 6 (essence loss) -> 7 is MUCH cheaper then.

resonance 8 -> 7 (essence loss) -> 8

(By RAW and clarification from Rob Boyle)

I really really should get any ware I am before I up my resoance again (heck should have done it before I upped it at all) however; character concept still says why would she do it...

Really wanting a in character option (see my other post on TM adepts.....)

See, that's twinky. wink.gif Smart, though.

It's all down to flavor again, I think. To me, raised on SR1, mages are willing to sacrifice a little bit of essence to work in the world. Many corp mages had datajacks. They sometimes got headaches from them, but it was a lot easier to do your work if you had one.

I really don't see a lot of purity in SR. Sec guards use combat drugs, Corps run the governments, Runners do whatever it takes to get by. Mages who espouse "purity of body" are either uppity, Ivory Towers, or so friggin' powerful you don't ever disagree with them. Every guy trying to scratch a living on the street is grabbing for whatever advantage they can manage, purity be damned.

To me, the characters that espouse the purity of the body are the unique ones. Everyone else knows that living in the 70's means you have wires or vat in you somewhere.

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