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nerf
I'm about to begin a campaign centered around a bunch of teenage orc gangers living in the Orc Underground. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a lot of source material about the Underground in 2060. I was wondering what your impressions are of the Underground, how it works politically both internally and in relation to greater Seattle, crime, living conditions, social climate, etc.

As little source material as I've found, I think its mostly up to gm interpretation and inspiration. So whats your take on the Orc Underground?
fistandantilus4.0
For info from some books try:
New Seattle
Runner Havens (circa 2070 though)
Novel Never Trust an Elf is real good

There's parts of it that are open to the public to the point of having tours, and parts that are violent to out siders. Good place for balck market goods, or to lay low if you belong.
Bodak
lie low
jrpigman
Lacking those sourcebooks, I have a couple of specific questions about Orks.

The main rules describe Orks as prone to having more than 1 kid at a time. That makes sense for a species that only lives 50 years - however, are we talking a whole litter of Orks? Do weak ones die off at a young age? How many do they have, and how many live to adulthood?

How formal a govermental body does the underground have? I read they let tourists in certain places - so who is this 'they?' Is it a quasi govermental body, or a complex network of underground ganger city states (village states?) Is there such a thing as an Underground school? What about a hospital? What kinds of vehicles do people use to get around?
2bit
As written in SR4, the Ork's average litter is four kids, and there is no mention of high infant mortality. Orks reach physical maturity much earlier than other races, and you can infer whatever you like from that fact. More likely to join gangs, more likely to become pregnant and not be able to support children, etc.
Moon-Hawk
I forget who pointed it out recently, but someone made the point that you can say whatever you want about disease and poor living conditions, the very high Body of Orks and Trolls should give them a very low infant mortality rate, at least compared to what you'd expect of humans in similar conditions.
nerf
What about the population of the Underground? There probably isn't any accurate census data on them, but I'm imagining somewhere between 2,000 and 20,000 Metas living down there.

As for vehicles? Combustion Engines could be a problem down there, what with emissions and poor ventilation. I'm imagining electronic scooters, maybe even ATVs with carts for larger cargo. Formal Traffic laws and Gridguide do not apply down here, so drive at your own risk.

Hospital? Will Docwagon retrieve you down there? Do they have an all Trogg team to send down there without making waves?

The way I understand it, other metas are only tolerated in the tourist areas. Is there a militia or something that bars outsiders from entering restricted areas, or is it the responsibility of the locals to intimidate and harass intruders.
Crossfire
You might want to check out this website: Twilightrun

There are some neat ideas there and also sources on where to find info on the underground.

I think it would be interesting to start a thread about the underground and we could try to put together a Netbook or something. I always felt the Ork Underground was one of the most underdeveloped concepts in Shadowrun..

Peace!

Crossfire
sunnyside
First off you could start be researching the actual Seatle underground. Not sure what there is in the internet for details about it, but it's real.

Then figure out how the old underground relates to the entry points listed in the books, and then extend it somewhat, and don't forget about some sections under the lava rock near hells kitchen (which likely isn't connected to the main underground).

For vehicles I'd say that mobility would be limited, and you're best bet would be a scooter you can carry over sections you can't drive. Even getting a larger vehicle in there in the first place could be a challenge.

Docwagon is probably right out.

I think the underground operates as a mix of city states, gangs, and just anarchy. From some flavor text I've read over the years (forget where) it sounds like if you fit in you can move about reasonably well so long as you don't stick your nose into anybody elses business. It sounds like groups are a bit less territorial as well (gang A can move through gang B's area without nessesarily provoking a fight) Obviously it's trickier for non orcs/trolls.

Also as I recal there was talk about many of those living there having (probably crappy) jobs topside. The underground providing a place they feel reasonably safe and leaving them with enough money to pay for all the kids.
SirBedevere
The real Seattle Underground is interesting; I went there about 10 years ago. From what I remember it's quite disorientating as it was never planned as such.

In the 19th Century wooden Seattle burned to the ground. The business owners, particularly the brothel owners wanted to rebuild immediately as they weren't making any money. The city council wanted to wait. The owners rebuilt straight away in stone on the original level. Some years later the council built roads at a much higher level to avoid flooding. This meant a drop, as much as 20 feet in some cases, between the road surface and the sidewalk. Eventually due to complaints, people being killed by falling off the road, people being killed by horses falling off the road onto the sidewalk etc., business owners built sidewalks at the new street level and added new doors. This would be on the old second, or even third floor (US style).

The old first and second floor became extended basements connected by the old sidewalks. This area became a hotbed of vice as many of the rooms were rented by 'seamstresses' aka 'ladies of negotiable affection'. Some were converted into rather exotic 'theatres'.

As the years went by some parts were demolished, some incorporated into buildings and some parts were just abandoned. I went on a guided tour and I remember a grafito of 'Dunklezahn' on one wall!

I'll see if I can dig out what few photos I took that came out OK. I'd like a thread on the Ork Underground as I agree that it is a woefully neglected Shadowrun setting.
Crossfire
Are there any movies out there with a good picture of what the Underground could look like? How about the sewers in Demolition Man with rat burgers and stuff like that?

Peace!

Crossfire
tisoz
A good shadowrun source for information is the old adventure DNA/DOA. Part of the adventure is set there, some of the underground is described as well as how it fits into and is hidden from the surroundings. There is also info about some of the social and governing structure, at least in an observed hands on sort of way.

QUOTE (Crossfire)
Are there any movies out there with a good picture of what the Underground could look like?

There is an episode of Kolchak - the Night Stalker that concerns the Seattle underground. Some scenes are set in at least the hollywood version of the underground. I am assuming it's Hollywood's version because the area was huge and open. If I recal correctly, it seemed like much of it was supported with scaffolding type apparatus. The entire Kolchak series is available on dvd, check your local library.
Random Voices
QUOTE (tisoz)
A good shadowrun source for information is the old adventure DNA/DOA. Part of the adventure is set there, some of the underground is described as well as how it fits into and is hidden from the surroundings. There is also info about some of the social and governing structure, at least in an observed hands on sort of way.

Actually the underground in DNA/DOA was not connected to the main Ork Underground. It was a tribe living in an isolated community. I did a little write-up for my game that incorporates information from New Seattle and the Twilightrun site. It was also based upon things a GM came up with in a game I was playing in.
It's a little dated, I haven't made any changes to the Underground since 2055ish or so. The game I was running was a few years ago, and it was set in 2055 - 2057

Here's the link:
Ork Underground

sunnyside
I'm not so sure about the "redshirts" but otherwise I like it.

Still for the GM one of the key points of the underground is that it's got lots of different regions, some of which may be nearly or totally innacesable from the rest. So you have a lot of licence to come up with what you want.

For example at one point in one of my campaigns the basement in the runners house suddenly gave way. The orcs had been expending underneath it but had skimped on the supports.

The runners managed to keep their cool and help out. They eventually go their basement fixed and had a quick escape route if they ever needed one.
nerf
I've had a couple other thoughts on this recently. Directly above the underground is an A-AAA grade security area (Downtown Seattle) right? What security rating would the underground have? And is those orcs down there are stirring up too much trouble, who is gonna stop the Star from making a forcible eviction. I'm imagining that the orcs downstairs make a point to maintain the status quo. Any residents who rock the boat too much, or draw the heat down on the community would not be treated kindly. On the other hand, I imagine they are prepared to fight tooth and nail (and high caliber ammunition) to maintain their quasi-independence.

Politics of the Underground
I'm imagining a urban tribal type affair (tribes divided along neighborhoods and squats), with gangs operating as executive branch, tax collectors and police forces, and the de facto city hall operates in conjuction with them to maintain ventilation shafts, water pumps, and tunnels. Can't say I like the idea of an Orc Royal Family or The Redshirts (StarTrek, please), but otherwise thats a good collection of info, Random, thanks.
Random Voices
It's been many years since I put all of that together. I know that the royal family thing came from another GM who's group I joined, from what I could gather he ran quite a number of runs fleshing out the Underground before I joined the group. I just kept it in in my write up because I liked the potential political conflicts between the various factions. I had a ghoul PC in my game who I was going to work into the political struggle. I believe that the redshirts were also tied into the Crimson Crush ork gang in Redmond - but I don't quite remember how the name originated.

Regardless, there is a "touristy" area of the Underground, and like all touristy areas it will have lots of opportunities to separate visitors from their money. Lone Star has no jurisdiction down there, and most likely wouldn't interfere with what goes on down there as long as those activities don't make them look bad. In order to keep tourists (and their money) visiting there needs to be some sort of security, an internal peacekeeping force. In the tourist section there would probably be little or no violence, of course pickpockets, conmen, prostitues, drug pushers would all be hanging around. I don't know if there would be an official law enforcement rating as such - according to the Star's definition it would probably be a Z zone (no enforcement), but the actual threat to the average person there would be similar to a C or maybe a B zone. In the tourist parts of the underground it would be fairly safe. It definitely would have an Old West type feel, everyone would be armed. There also needs to be some sort of system set up to provide the residents with those things that they need to live but can't grow or manufacture themselves. The various "governments" most likely would be tribal in nature, family groups banding together for protection, and there probably is some sort of framework so that the different tribes can work together (especially if they are moving goods from the SS lands into the downtown area).

I'm thinking along the same sort of lines as nerf as to the politics, but there is an Ork (and/or Troll) kingdom in Germany, and "king" sounds much cooler than "chief" or "mayor" or "governer."

Sunyside - I really like that idea about the basement. If I start a game up I may just have to "borrow" it.
sunnyside
@Random.

First tanks and your welcome to it.

Second the star technically does have Jurisdiction there. Same as they technically have jurisdiction in the other Z zones. It just that unless stuff spills out into areas they care about the bottom line doesn't support them going on.

But that is a good point about how close the underground is to really nice areas.

I'm glad my runners don't read this board. Now I want to run an adventure where they're doing some kind run or thing down in the underground when some corp, bothered by the orcs using some exits to let shadowrunners escape after runs against the corp, decides to arrange a little industreal accident down there. Maybe a water main blows, maybe a gas line leaks and then hits a spark. Or maybe some runners "hired by a rival company" blow a thousand gallon tank of hydrochloric acid so it spills straight underground.

Anyway I never really used the underground to it's full potential. Pity they never fleshed it out.
Luddite
I personally think the Underground was left somewhat vague to allow it to be as big and interconnected, or as small and simple as the GM needs it to be. As to how big it might be? Very, very big I'd say.

Here's my reasoning. Most of the original Downtown area of Seattle has some form of "underground" today in 2007. At the moment each block has a sort of moat around it's basement (or sub-basement) the width of a largeish sidewalk (was about 6 to 15 feet in most places, pretty spacious in the latter), but no block connects to any other block.

The major impediment to linking these blocks together directly, aside from just moving dirt, propping and shoring, is the fact that you'd be digging through the road. This means risking cutting into water, power, or even gas lines. One good explosion in Downtown Seattle might not have put the kibosh on the whole thing, but it certainly qualifies as the type of trouble that would get the 'Star interested in this particular Z zone pretty quickly. This means that to traverse from one block's underground to another you'd have to dig under the road, rather than directly through. Of course, careful exploration of the roads could act as insurance for the Orks. Perhaps the 'Star knows they can disrupt utility service to some very high class districts, and in return overlooks a certain amount of mayhem. It can also provide discrete thieves with free power and Matrix access.

A big secondary impediment is that a lot of the rooms that border the modern underground are still in use. Store owners in Seattle use them in much the same way that store owners in NYC use those sidewalk accessible basements of theirs. Knowing the price of real estate in any modern city, I think it'd be unlikely that any business owner would willingly cede any usable room within his property's footprint.

That being said, the properties closer to the waterfront (where the difference between the height of the road and the sidewalk, pre-underground was the greatest) most of the lower levels are probably abandoned. Also, tunneling directly through the road in that area is unlikely to cause any problems, since I doubt most utilities are installed much further than 10 feet down. These areas probably formed the core of the underground, soon after the night of rage. Since then, who knows? A few hundred Orks working part time on expanding their living quarters could provide a pretty significant amount of tunnel room, especially with some sort of magical backup. I'd think that they could have the equivalent of three to four city blocks deep (away from the sound) and possibly run the length of the city. There's also no real reason that the Orks couldn't begin other excavations outside the area of the existing underground.
WhiskeyMac
So what ever happened to the Dwarf Underground? It was mentioned in several of the write-ups about the Ork Underground but never really expanded on. If I remember correctly the description goes something along the lines that the dwarves and the orks had a falling out that caused the dwarves to be banned or excommunicated. Then it states that the dwarves might know about areas that even the orks don't. Just wondering if that ever got extrapolated on or not.
treehugger
Hi all, this is my first post on these forums, but since i'm having an orc sam running in my campaign that wants to live in the Underground, i've worked a bit on the matter.
First, like someone said, i've splited the "public" and the "real" underground.
In the public, most people have a sin, a real job on the surface, and are mostly "family people" living there, because its the only place they could live, or want to live to avoid racism issues.
The "real" underground, would be a place where allmost all inhabitants are sinless, but still, most would be families and refugees from the surface.
The Star never comes in these places, unless they have a real good reason to and wont just send a few beat cops : they'll send in the SWAT with very heavy firepower.
The security is maintained by the locals. As most earn their living by various illegal activities, they should all be armed and dangerous. They keep the entrances safe, ensure that no one gets hurt if its unnecessary.
To me the illegal activities all involve the surface, where the money lies.
So basicaly, the denizens will sell their services for smugling goods inside seatle, safe heaven, sand even safekeeping "hot" stuff.
If you're a criminal and have something to hide, the undeground should be the best place. The trogs will keep your stuff for some period of time in exchange for their piece of the cake.
The "government" is limited at best.
I think that kids would be educated "en masse" by anyone that knows how to read and write (i suppose the illetrism is very high).
An informal council would meet weekly and talk about the current issues. While it would be quite chaotic, they would split the community tasks between the locals, like evacuating the water from the streets, reopening a collapsed tunnel etc ...
Law would be quite simple like dont steal, kill or rape your neighbour or he or his friends will kill you and we'll make sure they succeed ... While most inhabitants would be "criminals" i suppose the crime rate in the underground would be quite low.

Sorry for the long post, i hope it'll help someone and that i'll get some feedback smile.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Good post. Sounds like you've got a good grasp of the underground.

I'd say the only thing I'd elaborate on is that the leadership would stil lcome to one person who holds the spot for as long as he/she can manage, possibly by bullying or coercion.

Welcome to DS.

I think you're missing a 'G' in your name there. I hope.

treehugger
QUOTE

I think you're missing a 'G' in your name there. I hope.

Hmm
I'm from France, and while i guess my english is "ok", it seems i've done a spelling error ... so its supposed to be "Treehugger" ? for someone who likes to hug trees ? what would Treehuger mean then ?
Grinder
Treehugger is the correct word, I guess.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Treehuger)
what would Treehuger mean then ?

Huger is either a version of huge (very big), or a city in South Carolina.

So Treehuger could mean that you make trees bigger.
treehugger
Lol !
I'm quite a slaker it seems, anyway ... thanks smile.gif and sorry for the offtopic messages
Grinder
No worries about OT wink.gif
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