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FriendoftheDork
hey guys, I'm starting my first SR campaign soon, and I consider starting them all as a small gang in the Redmond sprawl... with perhaps only 300 BPs and very limited equipment (possibly limited magic etc.).

Then they would gradually work for the local gangs, yakuza, mafia etc., and eventually become experienced and equipped enough to find fixers and later Mr. Johnsons.

What do you think? Should I just stay with the normal start and get the "On the Run" module?
2bit
Find out what your players want to do. Campaigns where you start low can be awesome, but it takes time. If you go this route, suggest to your players who want to play mages and adepts to take Latent Awakening instead. The real fun in this campaign, after all, is starting from nothing.
Garrowolf
actually instead of latent awakening just limit them to a magic rating of 3 or 4. I would also cap edge at 3 if you want it it be low powered.

One thing I thought of was that a measure of lower grade cyberdocs is that they are not good at getting close to the fractional essence mark so they don't. Maybe limit street characters to only 4 essence loss and no alpha. When they get better they can replace and upgrade in the same space and get closer to the wall on essence.

Also set the availability lower on weapons. Use more clubs, pipes, and knives along with pistols, shotguns, and smgs. Cap the lifestyle at low and don't charge them for cars (they are stolen).

Make sure that they have an intimidation skill and make that and reputation important.

There you go.
Jaid
generally speaking (AFAICT), 320 BP is a fairly popular starting point for street level (it allows for 160 BPs to the standard attributes, or 3s across the board)

magic and resonance 3 (sometimes 4, but usually 3) seems to be a fairly standard cap, with avail 10 (i find 9 is a better limitation... 10 allows a few non-street level items, like the chameleon suit and i think one of the sniper rifles.... 9 removes those, but still allows stuff with avail rating * 3 at 3)

also, usually the skill cap seems to be dropped a little lower... i would suggest one skill at 4, rest max at 3 (professional skill level isn't that bad when you're talking gangers). you should probably set the resources cap a bunch lower as well. (i dunno, 10 BP?)

just my thoughts on the matter, i guess...
fistandantilus4.0
Make sure you have the requisite time for a campaign to work characters up from the dredges. And like 2Bit said, make sure you're players are as enthusiastic about it as you are. If they're all new to the game, the may not like the idea of being "1st level" for a long time. If they're more veteran, they may get in to the idea. Also, depends if they're more roleplayers or rollplayers.
toturi
SR is on a very different advancement curve than the cancer-causing game. So if you start at a "low" level, you'd be staying there for a while.
fistandantilus4.0
Thank you, that's what I was attempting to say, summed up nicely.
FriendoftheDork
TY for replies. Yes, 320 seems ok, I don't want stats to be less than 3 across the board.

As for availablility, that will more or less be capped by price... I', considering to only allow 50 or 100 nuyen per build point instead of 5000! That would pretty much limit them from purchasing ares alphas, and would make cheap melee weapons alot more interesting.

Latent awakening: How is this played? I don't want them to have über mage or adept powers, and even capped at 3 those would be overpowered compared to street samurai that can't even afford wired reflexes lvl 1.

Players: Already asked them what they want, and this is just an option. They used to the cancer game (?), and used to being 1st level for a long time.

I'm going to let them advance in karma alot quicker than usual though, so that they can become Shadowrunners after 4-5 sessions.
laughingowl
Latent Awakening is basically a 'potential to be awakened'

Past that what happens is totally up to you (the GM).


In this scenario, it makes a good line for possible story arcs, and they manifest a power / spell under stress and then have to fight somebody/somehow to learn.



Do you have street magic?


If not the sum of the rules is (paraphrased)

Latant Awakening 5bp:

They character has the potential to awaken.

At some time (chosen by the GM) the player awakens (usually under stress).

They immediately get a magic rating of 1. (even if less essence then 6 they start with magic of 1, but their max is reduced).

They GM also picks a power or ability as appropriate for them to have.

They need to pay the cost difference between latent awaken and what they awaken into. At (awakened quality bp -5) * 2.

If they do not have enough karma the GM deducts any karma rewards to pay for it.
Anymage
Low-level ganger campaigns should be seen as less a stepping-stone to "proper" professional criminal games, and more as parallel storylines that the system also happens to work well with. "First level runners" games could cut the BP allowances, but still start with them as people taking the first steps towards becoming career criminals. As a matter of fact, that might be a better way to start them out; ask for their "why did your character decide to start on this way of life" stories, and if most people's involve extensive prior criminal backgrounds, you can up them to standard BP totals before building characters.

Also, what other games are your friends used to playing? Say what you will about D&D, but keep both your and their prior experience in mind. One of the nicest things about Shadowrun is that the whole structure of the game-as-written meshes well with a mission based player mindset. If you assume that playing Shadowrun or playing a low-power game or anything like that will somehow make them better roleplayers, you have another thing coming. (And as a matter of fact, making them less powerful will only encourage them to spend their points twinking out in a few areas to "compensate".) So to best answer your question, you'd be best off sharing gaming history (both yours and your players), as well as average campaign length. "The rise to power" works a lot better as a campaign concept when your last campaign lasted for a year than it does when a couple of months is the usual lifespan, for instance.
Glyph
Low-powered games only work when the players are seasoned roleplayers who are interested in such a game. Everyone else will be bored out of their minds playing uncybered mundanes - especially since magic and cyberware are such integral parts of the setting. Not starting out at "first level" is one of the advantages of the game.
toturi
QUOTE (Glyph)
Not starting out at "first level" is one of the advantages of the game.

Not starting out at "first level" is one of the advantages of THIS game.
ornot
dropping the nuyen per buildpoint down seems like a bad idea to me. I'd be more inclined to just drop the amount they can spend on nuyen down to 10 or 20BP, so instead of scoring a cool quarter mill they can only net 50 grand. That will restrict them to only one or two peices of cheap 'ware, which seems to be the intent. Dropping availability caps is a good way to restrict some of the pokier gear too.
The Entropic Wizard
Another good way to do this simply would be a combination of the aforementioned ideas. Like keeping the spending limit at 20BP, the Latent Awakening (my vote for best neg quality EVER), and so on. But I would you and your players would be best using the full 400 or 350, and give your karma out very sparingly, therefore making them feel the WORK of getting from the cardboard box in Glow City to getting a snazzy pad in DT, but still have fun with the 300-350 BP they used to create their characters.
2bit
Except Latent Awakening is a positive quality >_<
toturi
QUOTE (2bit)
Except Latent Awakening is a positive quality >_<

Really, how amazing. sarcastic.gif
DigitEyez
QUOTE (ornot)
dropping the nuyen per buildpoint down seems like a bad idea to me. I'd be more inclined to just drop the amount they can spend on nuyen down to 10 or 20BP, so instead of scoring a cool quarter mill they can only net 50 grand. That will restrict them to only one or two peices of cheap 'ware, which seems to be the intent. Dropping availability caps is a good way to restrict some of the pokier gear too.

I agree, but if you feel you have to drop the amount of money you get for build points, make sure you adjust it for your NPC's as well.

In my opinion its better to restrict by not allowing than by changing costs at character creation.
2bit
QUOTE (The Entropic Wizard)
(my vote for best neg quality EVER),

QUOTE (2bit)
Except Latent Awakening is a positive quality >_<


Clearer now toturi?
Seyluun
Our DM made us start as Puyallup gangers using the SR3 karma creation system, with 320 points instead of the "average" 430, and pretty much no stuff. With an average of 4-5 karma per scenario I didn't feel like my mage was progressing too slow, and raising from the street while keeping the attitude was fun, but we played once every two weeks for several years so we weren't in any hurry. So I'd say that beginning low is the best if you plan to play for a good while, so your players can go from lowly scum to prime scum.
FriendoftheDork
Latent Awakening looks exactly like what I want. And the last 10 or sp BP for becominging magician... well that's sorta already payed for as they only start with 320 Bps, just like the cash they lose out of.

Having them spend lots of BPs for just low change is a bit counterproductive (spening a BP for only 50 nuyen is NOT worth it). So instead I'll just give them a certain amount.... perhaps 2d6 hundred or so. I was thinking of having them chose between having an OK weapon (heavy pistol or SMG) and armor jacket OR more points in edge and skills, but really that's a poor bargain anyhow.
FriendoftheDork
Oh, and since I may not have been clear on this: My players are all veteran D&D players, good roleplayers as well. Some have experience with Cyberpunk, and some with other (non D20) games, and they're all used to low-power campaigns like this. One has GMed Shadowrun 3rd ed. extensively, but never been a player and is new to 4th ed.

Personally I have never run this game before, but I've played a few (relatively short) games of 3rd ed and 1 very short 4th ed. (only 4-5 sessions). I've Dmed other games though, mostly D&D.

Changing from exploration style to mission style will be a challenge, and I hope the sessions will not devolve into 3 sessions of dull planning to 15 minutes of execution. My players are smart, but they CAN spend countless hours debating miniscule part of their plans and tactics that relies on unknown factors rather than just take a good bet and go for it.

I know Legwork is a major part of shadowrun, but I want that to include alot of NPC interaction, intra party interaction and tense mini-quests. And I want some nice, tense combats as well biggrin.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Sounds like your group may be good for this style then. I'd say jsut take some time at the start of the campaign to let them know the tone you're going for so they can plan accordingly.

As for 3 hours planning, there may be less to worry about as starting charcters will ahve less to plan with. Less gear, less options, etc. Of course, if they're really creative, they may jsut spend 3 hours trying to find ways to compensate. Find out what they're looking for in a game. If they want to spend 3 hours planning, maybe you should give it a shot. Otherwise, a gentle nudge to move them along may be helpful. "Guys, this is probably good enough, you're over doing it." Or "We've only got so much time to game here guys." Depends on your group.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Sounds like your group may be good for this style then. I'd say jsut take some time at the start of the campaign to let them know the tone you're going for so they can plan accordingly.

As for 3 hours planning, there may be less to worry about as starting charcters will ahve less to plan with. Less gear, less options, etc. Of course, if they're really creative, they may jsut spend 3 hours trying to find ways to compensate. Find out what they're looking for in a game. If they want to spend 3 hours planning, maybe you should give it a shot. Otherwise, a gentle nudge to move them along may be helpful. "Guys, this is probably good enough, you're over doing it." Or "We've only got so much time to game here guys." Depends on your group.

Yeah, I was talking more in the long run. Hopefully, by then the players will be more familiar with the rules and what their PCs can and cannot do. Not to mention equipment... getting it piece by piece instead of 250k worth of it at once makes alot of difference.

I have a second set of questions, but I'll do those in a new thread.
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