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sharrem
I wold like to here people takes and how they handle it in their campaigns about Program sharing and copying between themselves and also character made programs sold endlessly (thy just sell a copy again and again) cyber.gif
the_dunner
One thing to keep in mind is that, in relative terms, the community of folks who write and sell hacking programs just isn't that big. (For high-end programs, you're probably talking about a world-wide community in the tens of thousands.) So, if a PC pirates a hacking program and redistributes it, the person who originally wrote it is more likely to find out about it than, say, the RIAA is likely to find out about an individual file sharer.

Further, while the RIAA tends to rely on legal measures to enforce copyright infringement, a hacker, particularly one who is also a shadowrunner, might be less likely to do so.

So, if a character made, say 100,000 this way, it's likely that somebody might come gunning for him wanting that money back.
Ravor
Well, personally I discourage it amoung the PCs by reminding them that there is nothing preventing their Decker buddy from installing a back-door to their systems in order to wreck havoc. Then I ask the Decker why she is giving something that she paid for away for free when the Sammy isn't giving her his guns and the Mage isn't giving control of his spirits to her? Although it doesn't stop everything completely, at least now I've gotten it where the Decker at least expects some sort of 'payment', usually in the form of favors, such as our Mage keeping Wards up on her place, and the Sammy keeping her weapons in perfect working order, ect, plus a below market value cash transfer.

As for making copies of programs and posting them on the 'trix or simply selling the same copy over and over again, well I handle that by ruling that as the program's code is spread out into so many hands, people start coming up with better defenses/attacks against it as they examine the code for flaws.

So basically it boils down to me asigning penalities to the Decker's Dicepool the next time she uses what used to be her secret smoking hot Attack Program because if everyone and their brother is also using the same Attack Program then Norton Defense 2070 is going to have a better protection against it then something that has never been seen before.
sharrem
QUOTE (Ravor)
Well, personally I discourage it amoung the PCs by reminding them that there is nothing preventing their Decker buddy from installing a back-door to their systems in order to wreck havoc. Then I ask the Decker why she is giving something that she paid for away for free when the Sammy isn't giving her his guns and the Mage isn't giving control of his spirits to her? Although it doesn't stop everything completely, at least now I've gotten it where the Decker at least expects some sort of 'payment', usually in the form of favors, such as our Mage keeping Wards up on her place, and the Sammy keeping her weapons in perfect working order, ect, plus a below market value cash transfer.

As for making copies of programs and posting them on the 'trix or simply selling the same copy over and over again, well I handle that by ruling that as the program's code is spread out into so many hands, people start coming up with better defenses/attacks against it as they examine the code for flaws.

So basically it boils down to me asigning penalities to the Decker's Dicepool the next time she uses what used to be her secret smoking hot Attack Program because if everyone and their brother is also using the same Attack Program then Norton Defense 2070 is going to have a better protection against it then something that has never been seen before.

well i was more referring to legally made programs by characters (especially pre-campaign time) that thy share with their fellow PCs and thus making it needless for them to porches any progs the programmer cane make cyber.gif
sharrem
QUOTE (sharrem)
QUOTE (Ravor @ Mar 24 2007, 10:03 AM)

As for making copies of programs and posting them on the 'trix or simply selling the same copy over and over again, well I handle that by ruling that as the program's code is spread out into so many hands, people start coming up with better defenses/attacks against it as they examine the code for flaws.

So basically it boils down to me asigning penalities to the Decker's Dicepool the next time she uses what used to be her secret smoking hot Attack Program because if everyone and their brother is also using the same Attack Program then Norton Defense 2070 is going to have a better protection against it then something that has never been seen before.


well i do use a rating degradation system for programs (not just player made ones) and i could add a factor for wide spread usability of specialty programs like hacking tools and firewalls but even considering that ,a good player made system program can last for over a year and just selling copies which is theoretically logical.
But a bit unbalancing to the game feel (IMO) cyber.gif
Ravor
Ok, then don't allow the Decker unlimited time to crack copy protection / code programs before the campaign starts. Although, my first solution was addressed at that problem, your Decker paid for her programs with BP, so why is she giving them away for free? Is your Mage in the habit of giving his Spirits away to his team-members? Is your Sammy likely to give his guns to someone who never bought any at char-gen?

In my experince asking the question that way tends to make the Players think about it in a slightly different light.

Although, does the rest of your team buy good Comm-links or do they buy the cheap ones?

----------

As for the bit about selling to NPCs, well the way I see it, there can't really be that much of a demand for high-end Programs in the first place as most of your Deckers will code their own, and most everyone else won't want to pay the extra nuyen.gif for a program that their comm-link can't handle anyways...
Jaid
QUOTE (sharrem)
well i was more referring to legally made programs by characters (especially pre-campaign time) that thy share with their fellow PCs and thus making it needless for them to porches any progs the programmer cane make cyber.gif

....

so in other words, your hacker wants to spend time and effort enforcing his legal copyright? because remember, copyright simply gives you the legal right to sue someone who steals your idea... it does not prevent the theft in the first place, nor does it cause the theft to show up without you searching for it. the hackers that try to make money selling programs which they have written have two main problems:

1) it's horrifically time-consuming to write the bloody things in the first place.

2) they can't afford to spend much time writing programs unless they are willing to let people hand out the programs they have written previously for free (or at least, without you getting money), or without you hiring someone to go after them for your money. and this even assumes you can even get any of that money out of them... often you won't.

simply put, shadowrunners don't do this kind of thing. if they were running a business, they bloody well wouldn't be shadowrunners. they'd be businessmen, and would be playing software tycoon™ instead of shadowrun.

so, here's your solution if a player ever decides they want to have their hacker spend all their time writing and selling programs: retire that character. they are no longer a shadowrunner, they are a businessman. same thing with someone who decides to start up an orichalcum factory, or raiding junkyards to build stuff, or using chemistry to produce various drugs, or using some kind of artisan skill to produce simporn, or simply permanently buying lifestyles and renting them out to others.

the game is called shadowrun because it is about shadowrunners. people do exist that write and sell programs for a living. those aren't the people the game focuses on.

as far as sharing within the team, well that's only a problem if it doesn't make sense within the group. if it's a team that's been working together for years, then sure the team hacker would share some programs with the rest of the team. they still need to know how to use it though... and they also need the hardware to run the software. furthermore, it ultimately doesn't matter, because a hacker of the sort you should be using against the players will either not be significantly stopped by the shared software anymore than the team hacker would be stopped by it... or else the runner's commlink will have an effective response of 0 and be useless for anything other than defense (and meanwhile the hacker will probably just spoof or hack something other than the commlink itself).

seriously, when 50 nuyen.gif per piece of equipment buys you protection from 99.9% of all hacking attempts, and skill is required to get anything out of the programs offensively, i don't see why it is a concern that a hacker would share their programs.

[edit] just as a side note, there's a rather significant difference between a hacker sharing programs and a sammy sharing his gun: the hacker can share the program and still have it, whereas the sammy cannot share his gun and still have it. thus, it is much more reasonable for a hacker to share a program he has written. [/edit]
sharrem
QUOTE (Ravor)
As for the bit about selling to NPCs, well the way I see it, there can't really be that much of a demand for high-end Programs in the first place as most of your Deckers will code their own, and most everyone else won't want to pay the extra nuyen.gif for a program that their comm-link can't handle anyways...

Ahh but here is where he tries to be smart about it he sells it for so little that every one wold buy it even if it's better then what thy need thy might as well because if you can get an R6 system for about 400 nuyen.gif from the PC why wold you by an R2 sys for the same price? and about rating degradation do to wide spread i can't logically claim that it should have an effect (unlike in hacking progs) cyber.gif
ShadowDragon
I don't have a problem with the hacker sharing programs with the group. Seems to me that that's the purpose of removing piracy protection. But generally he's the only PC with the skill to use most of the programs anyway, and most PCs tend to have poor to mediocre hardware unless they're a hacker.

As for selling programs on the black market, I just say no, and leave it at that. They're shadowrunners. If they want to sell stuff other than fencing a little gear from runs, they become NPCs.
ornot
I agree that a hacker who codes their own software and then makes a living by distributing said software isn't really going to have a lot of time for 'running anymore. What with releasing patches and fixes and the time spent to actualyl code the damn thing in the first place.

As for breaking copy protection and pirating software, within a group that's not too big of a deal, although I would ask for some kind of in character justification for such generosity.

I'm inclined to change the availability of programs and make the program costs increase with the rating far more.

One idea I've been tossing about is that rating 5 or 6 programs are only available if the hacker can code them him/herself. Distributing these custom programs (especially the hacking ones) will cause their ratings to drop as firewall programmers become familiar with them.
Nasrudith
QUOTE (ornot)

One idea I've been tossing about is that rating 5 or 6 programs are only available if the hacker can code them him/herself. Distributing these custom programs (especially the hacking ones) will cause their ratings to drop as firewall programmers become familiar with them.

If you do that makes sure that the rest of the world is balanced towards it so the hacker would not end up facing rating five IC frequently while he only has rating four. A hacker would have to spend at very least a month with edge spent, good programming skills and intellgence to get a single program. That is assuming that a month interval means a month of normal five eight hour days work a week. Otherwise they would not have anytime to run. Depending on the runs per game month that would make it take a while to fill their commlink with maxium rating programs. That system will give a definite boost to technomancers who are not limited by coding time.
ornot
Limiting the programs available to the starting hacker does mean that you don't have to fill every node they might conceviably hack with rating 6 IC and rating 6 firewalls to even present them with a minimal problem. Sure a starting hacker with rating 4 programs would have a tough time defeating a rating 6 firewall and IC, but they really shouldn't have to face anything that tough when infiltrating the kinds of facilities that the rest of the team will be able to handle at char-gen.

Personally I feel that this means you can be an alright hacker alongside something else by buying rating 4 programs; but to be a really wiz hacker you need to have invested the points in logic and software to be able to write the best programs.

At present you can be as good a hacker as you ever need to be (or can ever be while staying mundane) from the very start, simply by investing a bunch of BPs in top rated programs and a really wiz commlink. Just my opinion of course.
sharrem
and let say you have a character that has maxed out his programing skill ® and has logic 7 which now means he has a dice pool of 13 to programing
and he wants to build a rank 10 of every thing pre-game

is there a ruling somewhere that prevent that (i prefer it to be RAW and not housed) or limit the max rank he may achieve in a program?
Ravor
Jaid true, although the fact remeans that the Decker has paid more BP for his programs then the Sammy most likely did for his guns, and all a Mage loses from 'sharing' his spirits is some Drain and Binding Materials...

----------

Well sharrem, personally in the Sixth World I would flatly refuse to buy any program that was on sell THAT cheaply as the old saying is even more true, "If it is too good to be true..." as I'd figure that it had to be a trick or trap. Also what is to keep his little 'low-balling' war from spinning out of control. Have one of his rivals post a full suit for 300 nuyen.gif if hes selling them for 400 nuyen.gif, and when he lowers his price again, some joker decides to simply post everything on the 'trix for free...

As for getting programs at char-gen, the avalibility rules should cover that and its my understanding that allowing him any time to code his own programs without buying them with BP is a House Rule in of itself, and is one that I personally wouldn't allow.
sharrem
QUOTE (Ravor @ Mar 24 2007, 09:28 PM)
Jaid true, although the fact remeans that the Decker has paid more BP for his programs then the Sammy most likely did for his guns, and all a Mage loses from 'sharing' his spirits is some Drain and Binding Materials...

----------

Well sharrem, personally in the Sixth World I would flatly refuse to buy any program that was on sell THAT cheaply as the old saying is even more true, "If it is too good to be true..." as I'd figure that it had to be a trick or trap. Also what is to keep his little 'low-balling' war from spinning out of control. Have one of his rivals post a full suit for 300 nuyen.gif if hes selling them for 400 nuyen.gif, and when he lowers his price again, some joker decides to simply post everything on the 'trix for free...

As for getting programs at char-gen, the avalibility rules should cover that and its my understanding that allowing him any time to code his own programs without buying them with BP is a House Rule in of itself, and is one that I personally wouldn't allow.

whel as regard to Availability the rules actually don't give one to most programs only to hacking(a flat 12R) agent/IC/pilot(Ratingx3 but there aren't the issue) and Autosoft (Ratingx2 and again non issue)

and i did housed ruled a BP cost for time spent on pre-game extended tests of 1BP per 4 month which seems expensive (compared to the 1BP=5000) and i even linked it to the resource limit of 50 so if he take one he reduce the other

still he went for the all 10s and basically he is quit successful at it(but then again its only a theoretical questions that his actions arouse, because in this specific game I'm using advanced characters 450 BP with different starting limits and i don't really mind him having it i just created this thread for future knowledge when i use the normal rules)

cool.gif
Ravor
*Shrugs* Ok, personally given that Rating 7 is considered mil-spec proto-type I wouldn't allow anything close to Rating 10 but hey, its your game...
Garrowolf
Let the PCs share all they want. It is good for team work.

Get rid of commercially available rating 5 and 6 software and make it high end corporate or military or hackerware.

I completely changed the build time for programs. In a world of visual matrix programming languages, existing software and OCD hackers your code time is going to be much quicker.

CODE

Software            Maximum    Threshold  Interval  
Agent                Skill -2    Rating x 3   8 days  
Autosofts           Skill -1   Rating x 2  15 days  
Common Use          Skill       Rating        2 days  
Firewall             Skill -1    Rating x 2    15 days  
Hacking Programs    Skill -1     Rating x 2     8 days  
System               Skill -1  Rating x 2  30 days
sharrem
QUOTE
*Shrugs* Ok, personally given that Rating 7 is considered mil-spec proto-type I wouldn't allow anything close to Rating 10 but hey, its your game...

i just reached that conclusion myself and tagged the pre-game issue on hold until i decided on how it should be handled cyber.gif
ShadowDragon
If you really want to deter your players from sharing programs, just play up the paranoia. Pass a note to the hacker suggesting that he leave an undetectable backdoor in the programs he gives the PCs. Then pass notes to the other players that the hacker has the ability to do this (but don't say if he actually is). Sit back and enjoy how your players react lol

I did this when I first started GMing Shadowrun. The hacker put a backdoor into his friend's commlink and programmed it so that whenever his friend would say the hacker's name in text message (which they did often), the hacker's name was replaced with "the almighty one" or other arrogantly funny names. Eventually he got sick of this and paid to have the security upgraded on his commlink.
TheOOB
I rule that most high level (4+) programs need to be compadible with the characters commlink, and since most hackers use custom one of a kind commlinks and most characters use off the shelf models that can be difficult for the team.

When you buy the program from whoever made it, they look at your commlink and take the time to modify the program to work on your comm, this takes time, intimate knowledge of the programs source code, and specilized skills, most of which the hacker doesn't possess. Breaking the hacking protection allows the program to be copied, but unless the hacker is willing to take the time to modify the code, they can't usually trandfer the program, the time is only a fraction of that required to acually code the program, but PCs usually have better things to do then copy programs that their allies don't have time to use.

Plus if you get the program from a shadow source, they may be peeved to find out you've been spreading it among your group.
Garrowolf
OOB this is a strange way of going about it. They have operating systems. I would think that you wouldn't need to compile it each time. You would either have multiple versions or all OSs would be able to run any program. This seems like a step in the wrong direction.
Jaid
a fairly standard limitation i've seen on crafting stuff is to have a rating maximum based on your skill.

so with the system where you allow someone to program their own hacking software, they could only get it to 7 by taking aptitude and buying 7 ranks in software (which means their other skills would be at 4 maximum to compensate, and no electronics skillgroup possible (unless your GM rules you can break skill groups in chargen) at chargen.

at that point, i figure the BP investment is sufficiently high to allow them their rating 7 programs wink.gif

in any event, they would still need a response 7 chip to be able to use it... so unless you're handing out response 7 chips like hallowe'en candy, it shouldn't be a problem nyahnyah.gif
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