Ok, so, firing two guns at once results in a split dice pool as well as losing any bonuses from smartguns or laser sights. Logically, this results from having to split your attention between two guns at once, making it easier to be confused as to where each gun is pointing.
However, the multitasking adept power (pg. 178 SM):
Full Version: Multitasking and dual wielding guns
| QUOTE |
| Multi-tasking grants the ability to simultaneously process information from multiple senses. For example, an adept with this power could read data off multiple vid-screens and simultaneously hold a conference call over his commlink or hold a conversation while watching the trid, providing full attention to each. In game terms, Observe in Detail (p. 136, SR4) counts as a Free Action for the character. The adept is also hard to distract (for instance, they would suffer no modifiers in a crowded nightclub or an AR spam zone). Additionally, an adept with Multi-tasking gains two Free Actions per Initiative Pass when not directly involved in combat. |
So, if the adept can process info from multiple senses and directions, wouldn't he or she be able to devote his/her full attention to each gun?
In game terms, I'm guessing that this could work as being able to fire both guns at full dice pools (a little over-powered), being able to fire both guns with 3/4 dice pools, or at least allowing for the application of bonuses from laser sights/smartguns.
So, opinions? I personally think that having multitasking would allow an adept to fire both guns, if not at full dice pools for each, then at least a 3/4 full pool each and allowing for laser sight/smartgun bonuses.
In prior discussions, this came up. I feel like allowing a smartlink bonus for each is about the most you can really ask for.
Multitasking is a good ability already. Allowing it a small synergy with dual wielding is fine.
Allowing it to completely break dual wielding is not. If you allow full, or even 3/4 pools, you are dooming the sammy to the heavy weapons specialist. Because there's no reason to do it with 'ware if you can spend 20 points (2 magic points are "spent" on Synaptic 2 and Muscle Toner 2 + Platelets) on magic, 5 on being an adept, and then dual fire machine pistols on burst twice an action for 20+ dice each (or even 15).
Multitasking is a good ability already. Allowing it a small synergy with dual wielding is fine.
Allowing it to completely break dual wielding is not. If you allow full, or even 3/4 pools, you are dooming the sammy to the heavy weapons specialist. Because there's no reason to do it with 'ware if you can spend 20 points (2 magic points are "spent" on Synaptic 2 and Muscle Toner 2 + Platelets) on magic, 5 on being an adept, and then dual fire machine pistols on burst twice an action for 20+ dice each (or even 15).
QUOTE (multitasking adept power (pg. 178 SM) |
| Multi-tasking grants the ability to simultaneously process information from multiple senses. |
Its saying you can watch two TVs at once, or read a book and carry on a conversation at the same time. IMHO, that seems a far cry from being able to aim and shoot two weapons at once.
| QUOTE (multitasking adept power (pg. 178 SM) |
| Additionally, an adept with Multi-tasking gains two Free Actions per Initiative Pass when not directly involved in combat. |
Here it also says that the power specifically does not work with combat actions.
Also, I was under the impression that part of the problem with dual wielding pistols was the recoil penalty stacking. Your second shot imposes a -1die penalty when firing with one gun, so when firing two pistols it surely goes; 0, -1, -2, -3?
I suddenly have this thought to install a drone's dog-brain into your cyberarm.
You'd be able to rig your own cyberarm, so you can be in captain's chair mode and concentrate on firing with your other arm, while the drone brain handles the other arm's firing.
Hmm...
-karma
You'd be able to rig your own cyberarm, so you can be in captain's chair mode and concentrate on firing with your other arm, while the drone brain handles the other arm's firing.
Hmm...
-karma
| QUOTE (SINlessSlacker) | ||
Here it also says that the power specifically does not work with combat actions. |
I wouldn't take that to mean the power itself is completely useless in a combat situation, just that you don't get the extra free action.
So things like observe in detail as a Free Action isn't negated by combat.
Still, we are talking about adding a lot of power to an ability witch used to have only specific applications (It seems to be designed for adept ringers & hackers, as if they needed it.)
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| Also, I was under the impression that part of the problem with dual wielding pistols was the recoil penalty stacking. Your second shot imposes a -1die penalty when firing with one gun, so when firing two pistols it surely goes; 0, -1, -2, -3? |
You would potentially face increasing recoil penalties, yes. However, doing a short narrow burst is a -3 recoil penalty. That should be covered by your gas vents. So you'll face some penalties on your final shots if you're using a burst at first.
However:
The option now:
I have a dice pool of 20. I can fire each gun in a single simple action w/10 dice each. Then I can face a -1 penalty, with no recoil compensation left in my second simple action, so I can fire twice more, with a 9 pool each.
Or, assuming Multitask works to allow more dice, I can fire each gun in a single simple action with 15 or 20 dice each. Then I can face a -1 penalty, with no recoil compensation left in my second simple action, so I can fire twice more, with a 14 or 19 dice pool each.
Or, if I'm using a single gun, I can fire one gun in a single simple action with 20 dice. Then I can face a -1 penalty, with no recoil compensation left in my second simple action, so I can fire once more with a 19 dice pool.
You're comparing 20/19 to 10/10/9/9 normally. With this, it's 15/15/14/14 or 20/20/19/19.
The last is clearly superior. The 15/15/14/14 is slightly debatable, but pretty clearly still better, unless you really need 20 dice to get a hit. The 10/10/9/9 is a choice of tactics.
I don't really follow you there Lorechaser.
For starters, lets assume a dice pool of 20 (which is pretty gross, but at least the maths is simpler), and no recoil [edit]compensation[/edit] on a pistol.
with one weapon you're looking at 20/19. First shot at full dice pool, the second shot from your SA pistol suffering a -1 dice modifier.
with two weapons you're looking at 10/9/8/7 as the recoil from one gun also affects the recoil for the second.
Allowing multi-tasking to use your full dice pool gives you 20/19/18/17, by my reckoning, which is clearly gross.
Of course, if your dice pool of 20 includes bonuses from a smartlink, then you would enjoy fewer dice in your pool to split (in this case 18).
If I'm really missing the point I'd appreciate someone pointing it out to me.
This is rather moot anyway, since you can't use multitasking in this way.
For starters, lets assume a dice pool of 20 (which is pretty gross, but at least the maths is simpler), and no recoil [edit]compensation[/edit] on a pistol.
with one weapon you're looking at 20/19. First shot at full dice pool, the second shot from your SA pistol suffering a -1 dice modifier.
with two weapons you're looking at 10/9/8/7 as the recoil from one gun also affects the recoil for the second.
Allowing multi-tasking to use your full dice pool gives you 20/19/18/17, by my reckoning, which is clearly gross.
Of course, if your dice pool of 20 includes bonuses from a smartlink, then you would enjoy fewer dice in your pool to split (in this case 18).
If I'm really missing the point I'd appreciate someone pointing it out to me.
This is rather moot anyway, since you can't use multitasking in this way.
Why has no one else commented on KarmaInferno's comment?!
I'm gonna go start a new thread.
I'm gonna go start a new thread.
| QUOTE (Octopoid) |
| Why has no one else commented on KarmaInferno's comment?! I'm gonna go start a new thread. |
Well that should work just fine, except it's not really you firing that other weapon, it's a drone. Thus it needs proper targeting programs and pilot rating. It's basically a drone inside your arm incapable of independent movement.
rigging an arm... pardon me, but that's rather silly. Still, if someone was really determined to do it they could. They'd need to put sensors on the arm, and they'd still get recoil modifiers on the unrigged arm.
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| I don't really follow you there Lorechaser. For starters, lets assume a dice pool of 20 (which is pretty gross, but at least the maths is simpler), and no recoil on a pistol. with one weapon you're looking at 20/19. First shot at full dice pool, the second shot from your SA pistol suffering a -1 dice modifier. with two weapons you're looking at 10/9/8/7 as the recoil from one gun also affects the recoil for the second. Allowing multi-tasking to use your full dice pool gives you 20/19/18/17, by my reckoning, which is clearly gross. Of course, if your dice pool of 20 includes bonuses from a smartlink, then you would enjoy fewer dice in your pool to split (in this case 18). If I'm really missing the point I'd appreciate someone pointing it out to me. This is rather moot anyway, since you can't use multitasking in this way. |
I couldn't remember if recoil passed from gun to gun that way or not. I meant to go dig up the faq and find out, then got distracted.
And yeah, 20 is pretty gross, but 1. it was easy math and 2. the dudes looking to abuse this (like me) would have a 20 dice pool.
Keeping the 20 dice pool and allowing full dice with dual wielding does look gross, and should proably just be ignored. A 3/4 pool though looks usefull without a guaranteed hit every shot.
You have with 20/19 with one gun, but with 2 guns you get 15/14/13/12. (or 15/15/14/14).
You have with 20/19 with one gun, but with 2 guns you get 15/14/13/12. (or 15/15/14/14).
Under what circumstances would it be 15/15/14/14?
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| Under what circumstances would it be 15/15/14/14? |
Single shots with RC 3. There would be no uncompensated recoil.
but there are 4 shots. If you're using single shot weapons that requires four weapons. Am I utterly misunderstanding the nomenclature?
They are talking about using two Semi-Auto's so each can fire on both simple actions.
I think also that any recoil mods should be symmetric across both hands for each simultaneous shot. So taking to Predators, and dual wielding them with 20 dicepool then at the first pair of shots there would be 1 point of recoil so for the first pair of shots you would have 9/9 under normal conditions. Then the second shots would be 7/7.
I'm uncertain if you take the recoil into the pool before splitting or if you take it out of each individual pool. I'm curious enough now to go check...
I think also that any recoil mods should be symmetric across both hands for each simultaneous shot. So taking to Predators, and dual wielding them with 20 dicepool then at the first pair of shots there would be 1 point of recoil so for the first pair of shots you would have 9/9 under normal conditions. Then the second shots would be 7/7.
I'm uncertain if you take the recoil into the pool before splitting or if you take it out of each individual pool. I'm curious enough now to go check...
but that still doesn't explain 15/15/14/14
with RC 3 there would be no penalty firing a semi auto twice in one round, and it was described as single shots, not a semi-auto double-tap. Of course single shot might just be to distinguish it from a burst, but even so, the recoil modifiers don't add up.
with RC 3 there would be no penalty firing a semi auto twice in one round, and it was described as single shots, not a semi-auto double-tap. Of course single shot might just be to distinguish it from a burst, but even so, the recoil modifiers don't add up.
Yea, I don't think I could explain 15/15/14/14...
Maybe they were SMGs with RC3, they fire a short burst out of each the first simple action, so no uncompensated recoil, then the second simple action is a single shot out of each so -1 (Since first bullet doesn't count?)
Then that would also be using the house rule of 3/4 pool for someone with multitasking.
Maybe they were SMGs with RC3, they fire a short burst out of each the first simple action, so no uncompensated recoil, then the second simple action is a single shot out of each so -1 (Since first bullet doesn't count?)
Then that would also be using the house rule of 3/4 pool for someone with multitasking.
Ah, you're right.
15/15/15/15 with single shots. No recoil at all.
15/15/15/15 with single shots. No recoil at all.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.