In fact i have a major issue with armor in the 4th edition.
The fact that it will reduce to stun damage "weaker" weapons is imho a very good thing. But now that i've seen all the armor ratings, i really feel its totaly overpowered.
The game books proposes to add 2 to all damage ratings to have a deadlier gameplay. Did anyone tried it ?
Statisticaly speaking, dont you think reducing armor 2 levels would be better ? (2 damage = 2 successes, 2 armor = 2 dices, so 2 power = 6 dices).
In fact, defense is way better than offense atm, at least in my opinion.
If you take the "beefed up" average sam, with a heavy pistol(5 damage - 1 armor) versus a beefed up sam and a lined coat(6 ballistic), the odds that the attacking will score any damage is quite weak :
the attacker rolls 14 dices (6 agi + 6 firearms + 2 from smartlink). Average will be rounded up to 5 success.
The defender, rolls 9 dices (6 reaction + 3 from increased stuff) and scores 3 success.
The offender will score 7 damage, Stun of course.
The defender now rolls 11 dices (5 armor + 6 body) and so will score an average of 4 sucesses.
He'll take 3 stun damage.
Note that i do not include any modifier, so this would be 2 sams at short range, none moving ...
It's going to take a long time to kill him ...
With -2 armor, the damage would become physical, and the defender would average 4 damage each hit, witch is quite ok imho.
The thing is that with the actual rules, i feel that when armor and weapons are aprox the same level (heavy pistol vs lined coat, assault rifle vs camouflage suit) the armor will always 'win' and so only stun damage will be inflicted.
Full Version: Armor and damage
| QUOTE (Treehuger) |
| The offender will score 7 damage, Stun of course. |
What? Why of course? I thought you said the defender had 6 armor.
The modified DV of the attack is 7 (5 base + 2 net hits), which is greater than the modified armor of the defender of 5 (6 ballistic -1AP). So we're talking about physical damage here, not stun.
Have we found the problem?
I might be wrong (i've read the book a couple times only so i dont know everything by heart yet) but i remember that you compare the armor level to the BASE damage, not the modified (and it makes sense as the damage increase is not an increased penetration)
You use the base damage (without modification for burst fire) + net hits!
And stun damage or not, taking 3 boxes (per shot!) from a heavy pistol means 6 boxes per IP, means two IP and you are down.
I don't see how you can say that the armor wins here.
Besides, 9 dice for Reaction is quite a lot (you won't get beyond this normally), while 14 dice for shooting is good, but it can easily be as high as 20.
Bye
Thanee
P.S. dice is already plural, no need to further pluralize it.
And stun damage or not, taking 3 boxes (per shot!) from a heavy pistol means 6 boxes per IP, means two IP and you are down.
I don't see how you can say that the armor wins here.
Besides, 9 dice for Reaction is quite a lot (you won't get beyond this normally), while 14 dice for shooting is good, but it can easily be as high as 20.
Bye
Thanee
P.S. dice is already plural, no need to further pluralize it.
The damage is only rounded down to stun if the modified DV is blow the armor value BEFORE resist is rolled.
Your samurai will take 3 physical damage.
The Pistol which by the stats appears to be an Aries Predator his DV 5, AP -1.
Attacker scores 5 hits on his ranged attack test, defender rolls and scores 3 hits. Attacker nets 2 hits.
Thats a modified DV of 7 with AP -1. It overcomes the line duster
Do note that most guns can fire twice on your turn per IP. So assuming the attacker fired twice. The defender would have taken another 3 physical damage or more
4. Compare Armor
Add the net hits scored to the base Damage Value of the attack; this is the modified Damage Value. Determine the type of armor used to defend against the specific attack (see Armor,
p. 148), and apply the attack’s Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 152); this is the modified
Armor Value. If the attack causes Physical damage, compare the modified Damage Value to the modified Armor Value. If the DV does not exceed the Armor, then the attack inflicts Stun
Spelled out nice and clearly as the book does, thats how you deal with damage becoming stun.
Here's another possibility my street samurai, fires his machine pisto with EXEX (DV 5 AP -1) in a long burst: narrow (-5 to hit (recoil reduces it to -2, +5 DV to damage). Normally he roles 18 dice.
6 skill+specialization+smartlink+8 agility.
But now he's rolling 15 that averages 5 hits.
Same Defender rolls 9 dice, (say 7 reaction and 2 dodge, took his first IP for full defense wired reflexs after all) nets 3 hits just like yours.
This reduces my hits to 2. For a modified DV of 12 with AP of -1, however for comparing armor its only 7P/AP-1
Defender rolls same dice as yours and gets 4 hits he has now taken 8 physical damage.
But I can follow this up with a short burst narrow on my turn (-2 to hit +2 DV damage) Total recoil of -5 from the previous shot and the current bursts recoil total might be only -4.
So I roll 13 dice, using the 1 for 3 formula thats 4 hits.
The defender rolls 7 dice as he has a -2 wound modifier. So he gets only 2 hits on his defense.
That leaves 2 hits for me.
Thats a DV of 9 AP -1, well above his armor rating.
He now rolls his body/armor resist. (wounds don't apply here)
Once again 4 hits, for a total damage of 5.
His total damage is 13, he's got two boxes of overflow.
Could have fired in wide bursts to give him a penalty to dodge as opposed to my damage. Could have fired an assault rifle with EXEX instead and dealt 2 more damage both times.
My point is this game can easily turn deadly.
Your samurai will take 3 physical damage.
The Pistol which by the stats appears to be an Aries Predator his DV 5, AP -1.
Attacker scores 5 hits on his ranged attack test, defender rolls and scores 3 hits. Attacker nets 2 hits.
Thats a modified DV of 7 with AP -1. It overcomes the line duster
Do note that most guns can fire twice on your turn per IP. So assuming the attacker fired twice. The defender would have taken another 3 physical damage or more
4. Compare Armor
Add the net hits scored to the base Damage Value of the attack; this is the modified Damage Value. Determine the type of armor used to defend against the specific attack (see Armor,
p. 148), and apply the attack’s Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 152); this is the modified
Armor Value. If the attack causes Physical damage, compare the modified Damage Value to the modified Armor Value. If the DV does not exceed the Armor, then the attack inflicts Stun
Spelled out nice and clearly as the book does, thats how you deal with damage becoming stun.
Here's another possibility my street samurai, fires his machine pisto with EXEX (DV 5 AP -1) in a long burst: narrow (-5 to hit (recoil reduces it to -2, +5 DV to damage). Normally he roles 18 dice.
6 skill+specialization+smartlink+8 agility.
But now he's rolling 15 that averages 5 hits.
Same Defender rolls 9 dice, (say 7 reaction and 2 dodge, took his first IP for full defense wired reflexs after all) nets 3 hits just like yours.
This reduces my hits to 2. For a modified DV of 12 with AP of -1, however for comparing armor its only 7P/AP-1
Defender rolls same dice as yours and gets 4 hits he has now taken 8 physical damage.
But I can follow this up with a short burst narrow on my turn (-2 to hit +2 DV damage) Total recoil of -5 from the previous shot and the current bursts recoil total might be only -4.
So I roll 13 dice, using the 1 for 3 formula thats 4 hits.
The defender rolls 7 dice as he has a -2 wound modifier. So he gets only 2 hits on his defense.
That leaves 2 hits for me.
Thats a DV of 9 AP -1, well above his armor rating.
He now rolls his body/armor resist. (wounds don't apply here)
Once again 4 hits, for a total damage of 5.
His total damage is 13, he's got two boxes of overflow.
Could have fired in wide bursts to give him a penalty to dodge as opposed to my damage. Could have fired an assault rifle with EXEX instead and dealt 2 more damage both times.
My point is this game can easily turn deadly.
Ok ok 
You guys convinced me, and thanks for pointing me out my wrong reading of the books
Now i'll have to rethink about the game's mortality
You guys convinced me, and thanks for pointing me out my wrong reading of the books
Now i'll have to rethink about the game's mortality
| QUOTE (Treehuger) |
| Ok ok You guys convinced me, and thanks for pointing me out my wrong reading of the books Now i'll have to rethink about the game's mortality |
When I first started this game I thought a DV of say 8 meant you rolled 8 dice for damage. We're all noobs at some point, and noobs can be just plain foolish.
The game is less deadly than a similar situation today. (Effective body armor is relay only used by the military & the like.) But, armor technology seems to be advancing much quicker than firearms so that makes sense. Pournelle wrote an interesting artical in the intro to Go Tell the Spartans
| QUOTE (pestulens @ Mar 30 2007, 10:05 AM) |
| The game is less deadly than a similar situation today. (Effective body armor is relay only used by the military & the like.) |
Actually it's not, and it is.
Body armor that stops a bullet often means that you take effectively no damage. It varies, but I've heard a cop describe being shot in a vest as "being poked in the chest by a finger". And hard plates are even more effective.
But bullets that overmatch the armor are quite different. Light armor that is overmatched does nothing useful to the person wearing it. You are not going to take less damage if you are shot with an assault rifle wearing a level 2 vest than if you were wearing a t-shirt. I've seen seemingly valid arguments that you are actually likely to be more seriously injured if you are wearing inadequate armor than if you are wearing no armor. Mostly because the armor slows the bullet enough so it upsets inside your body and the pieces of the armor become secondary projectiles.
So (if SR was the real world) you'd effectively get no protection from wearing an armored jacket if someone was shooting at you with a HMG, and "Armored Clothing" is useless against rifle fire.
My friend was shot several times while wearing a vest. It knocked him out and gave him dinner plate sized bruises. He was a cop delivering a warrant in Texas.
If you want weapons to be deadlier then up the penetration on most guns. That's what we did in my game. We also included a few points of hardened armor plates in security and military armor. Armored cloth didn't have it.
If you want weapons to be deadlier then up the penetration on most guns. That's what we did in my game. We also included a few points of hardened armor plates in security and military armor. Armored cloth didn't have it.
Keep in mind that the game already has APDS armor, which has -4 AP. You can't start out with it at char-gen, and the high Availability means it will be rationed a bit more carefully than other kinds of ammo, but it's still out there. Wide bursts can also be deadly (less dice for the target to resist means more net successes, and a higher Damage to compare to armor).
Even if your armor is heavy enough where you pretty much only take stun damage you are still in danger. Most characters have a body attribute that is equal to or higher then their willpower (that goes double for trolls), and thus they have a larger physical damage track. The stun damage their taking will apply wound mods at the same rate, and probally take them down quicker then physical damage, sure when you max out your stun damage track your not dead, but an unconsious runner is an easy target.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| My friend was shot several times while wearing a vest. It knocked him out and gave him dinner plate sized bruises. He was a cop delivering a warrant in Texas. |
not every situation is the same. a good hit in the right place on the right vest very well could knock you out, but that's not the most common result.
Well we increased the penetration on a lot of the base damage codes. APDS is on top of that.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
not every situation is the same. a good hit in the right place on the right vest very well could knock you out, but that's not the most common result. |
It sort of sounds like it was stopping a round that it wasn't rated for. NIJ measures backface deformation (it's one of the required measurements to get a rating) and that amount of bruising and injury suggests that the armor was flexing inward significantly more than it did when it passed testing.
I've also seen pictures of guys holding bloody body armor after the armor was driven into their skin. But that doesn't seem common and it seems to be from the armor stopping attacks that exceed what it's actually certified to stop.
I've also seen arguments the NIJ backface deformation standards are excessive and result in excessively heavy and hot armor that isn't worn as much as it should be. Accepting more deformation means you are somewhat more likely to be injured if shot, but still a hell of lot less than if you were perforated by the bullet because you didn't wear your armor. I know enough to know that I don't know enough to say.
well he survived it or I wouldn't have known him.
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