Hi all,
This came up in our last session and I was wondering what you guys thought.
One of our mages was astrally projecting. She has a small dual natured cat and she wanted to pick up the cat and carry it (while she was astrally projecting). I initially allowed it and it didn't cause any problems.
However, I'm having second thoughts because I can see how it would cause lots of problems.
Is this issue addressed in the rules anywhere? Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
JKL
Full Version: Astral Space Question
My interpretation:
In general rules are permissive. By this I mean, that the rules generally indicate what you can do, not what you can't do. There are no rules that talk about moving things around purely in the astral, thus there's nothing in astral space that you can pick up. Nothing.
Force, Momentum, Mass. These are all physical concepts. While you can interract with astral objects including dual natured objects. You cannot apply force, or as a corrolary do work. Even to purely astral objects. Not by merely picking them up at least. I can't think of one example of an astral construct that can be manipulated in the rules as an object.
A focus can be brought with you, and becomes a part of your astral form, but you are not "carrying" it, and you cannot "drop" it.
A ward is immobile.
A spell is attached to another aura.
Spirits are well, spirits, and you may be able to attack them, but you can't stick one in your pocket.
In general rules are permissive. By this I mean, that the rules generally indicate what you can do, not what you can't do. There are no rules that talk about moving things around purely in the astral, thus there's nothing in astral space that you can pick up. Nothing.
Force, Momentum, Mass. These are all physical concepts. While you can interract with astral objects including dual natured objects. You cannot apply force, or as a corrolary do work. Even to purely astral objects. Not by merely picking them up at least. I can't think of one example of an astral construct that can be manipulated in the rules as an object.
A focus can be brought with you, and becomes a part of your astral form, but you are not "carrying" it, and you cannot "drop" it.
A ward is immobile.
A spell is attached to another aura.
Spirits are well, spirits, and you may be able to attack them, but you can't stick one in your pocket.
Arguments for:
1. Dual-natured beings have tangible astral forms + Astral forms can affect each other.
Arguments against:
1. Dual-natured beings ahve physical forms + astral forms cannot affect physical forms.
2. Astrally perceiving characters suffer a penalty when performing a "physical, non-magical task (shooting a gun, driving a car)." This suggests only magical tasks can be performed on the astral plane (otherwise it would specify tasks in the physical world), which in turn means astral forms can't perform physical tasks. Picking up the cat would be a physical, non-magical task. Thus, an astrally projecting mage could not perform such a physical task.
3. At the "running rate," an astral form at 100km/minute is moving faster than a bullet (according to an internet search on bullet speed). I don't think the rules were intended to let you use your cat as a weapon.
1. Dual-natured beings have tangible astral forms + Astral forms can affect each other.
Arguments against:
1. Dual-natured beings ahve physical forms + astral forms cannot affect physical forms.
2. Astrally perceiving characters suffer a penalty when performing a "physical, non-magical task (shooting a gun, driving a car)." This suggests only magical tasks can be performed on the astral plane (otherwise it would specify tasks in the physical world), which in turn means astral forms can't perform physical tasks. Picking up the cat would be a physical, non-magical task. Thus, an astrally projecting mage could not perform such a physical task.
3. At the "running rate," an astral form at 100km/minute is moving faster than a bullet (according to an internet search on bullet speed). I don't think the rules were intended to let you use your cat as a weapon.
Based on what I've seen I'd say that a purely astral entity cannot move a dual natured entity. They can attack a dual natured entity with astral combat or spells, stand in front of them and act as a wall, but they can't move them, because as mentioned there is no force in the astral plane. It's the same reason why a dual natured being needs the astral combat skill to hurt an astral form rather then just punching it.
If you need evidence, it is mentioned in street magic that awakened ivy is a good defense from purly astral intruders. While a mudane or dual natured creature could just push it out of the way on the physical plane, an astral form finds it to be an effective barrier and must engauge it in astral combat to penetrait it.
If you need evidence, it is mentioned in street magic that awakened ivy is a good defense from purly astral intruders. While a mudane or dual natured creature could just push it out of the way on the physical plane, an astral form finds it to be an effective barrier and must engauge it in astral combat to penetrait it.
At the risk of making a "me, too" post ...
I'm fairly certain that you can't move stuff around in the astral. When you're using Astral Combat, you're not hitting anything, or wrestling with it, you're trying to disrupt it. For example, a dual-natured being cannot be supported in mid-air by standing on a ward. The procedure is for the being and the ward to roll against one another, and one or the other is disrupted; in either case, the being passes through.
I'm fairly certain that you can't move stuff around in the astral. When you're using Astral Combat, you're not hitting anything, or wrestling with it, you're trying to disrupt it. For example, a dual-natured being cannot be supported in mid-air by standing on a ward. The procedure is for the being and the ward to roll against one another, and one or the other is disrupted; in either case, the being passes through.
| QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 2 2007, 08:48 PM) |
| At the risk of making a "me, too" post ... |
Don't beat your self up, call it a "consensus" post rather than a "me, too", and suddenly it sounds scientific instead of childish.
Well in that case, mark this as another issue that we agree on Demerzel 
I dont rememeber the actual rules or even the exact mention in the books, but there is a similar situation described in one of the books : a net coated with dual natured bacteria is thrown on an astral form ...
I'll try to find in waht book it is, and tell you the outcome, but clearly this is the same situation and the outcome should be the same.
I'll try to find in waht book it is, and tell you the outcome, but clearly this is the same situation and the outcome should be the same.
Well the way I see it, you always use the most restrictive rules of movement in both the Physical and Astral when you are Dual Natured.
This means that an Astral Being can not pick up a Dual Nature object and move it because well, Astral Beings can not effect anything on the Physical Plane.
Yes, this means that as far as I'm concerned a Dual Natured Being can not use a purely Astral Ladder to climb up to a second story window. (However I've been told that it was indeed possible in Third Edition at least in very special and rare cases, but I find the entire idea silly.)
As for a Dual Natured net capturing an Astral Being, well under my understanding yes it would work being the only thing that the Physical Net is being used for is dragging the Astral Net where the mundanes want it.
*EDIT*
The reason that the two situations aren't the same is that the Astral Reflections of Dual Natured objects and beings do move along with the Physical version of said object or being, while the oppersite clearly isn't true, otherwise all Dual Natured beings could fly, even at astral speeds if they could survive it...
This means that an Astral Being can not pick up a Dual Nature object and move it because well, Astral Beings can not effect anything on the Physical Plane.
Yes, this means that as far as I'm concerned a Dual Natured Being can not use a purely Astral Ladder to climb up to a second story window. (However I've been told that it was indeed possible in Third Edition at least in very special and rare cases, but I find the entire idea silly.)
As for a Dual Natured net capturing an Astral Being, well under my understanding yes it would work being the only thing that the Physical Net is being used for is dragging the Astral Net where the mundanes want it.
*EDIT*
The reason that the two situations aren't the same is that the Astral Reflections of Dual Natured objects and beings do move along with the Physical version of said object or being, while the oppersite clearly isn't true, otherwise all Dual Natured beings could fly, even at astral speeds if they could survive it...
just to throw in my 2 Cents:
i would rule, that purely astral forms cannot interact with dual-natured beiings in a way, that the physical component of the dual-natured beeing is affected directly. (beside doing damage to that beeing. that would translate to the physical body. but even that wouldn't count as direclty interacting, IMHO.)
the main reason is: otherwise bored spirits could always go downtown for ghoul-slapping. (picking one up and slapping the others with him, i mean.
)
think of it like that: the physical body gives the dual-natured being some kind of "anchor". that keeps it from being moved through "pushing" its astral component.
but the rules do not say something explicitly on that.
as for that net with active bacteria: i would treat it like that awakend ivy. a spirit (or projecting mage) would need to battle the astral component in astral combat. if he wins, he can escape (he might have damaged the bacteria or "pressed through" the net). otherwise he takes damage and stays inside.
i would rule, that purely astral forms cannot interact with dual-natured beiings in a way, that the physical component of the dual-natured beeing is affected directly. (beside doing damage to that beeing. that would translate to the physical body. but even that wouldn't count as direclty interacting, IMHO.)
the main reason is: otherwise bored spirits could always go downtown for ghoul-slapping. (picking one up and slapping the others with him, i mean.
)think of it like that: the physical body gives the dual-natured being some kind of "anchor". that keeps it from being moved through "pushing" its astral component.
but the rules do not say something explicitly on that.
as for that net with active bacteria: i would treat it like that awakend ivy. a spirit (or projecting mage) would need to battle the astral component in astral combat. if he wins, he can escape (he might have damaged the bacteria or "pressed through" the net). otherwise he takes damage and stays inside.
According to Street Magic, projecting mages have free-roaming astral forms, but dual-natured beings have forms tied to their physical body (p. 112). It's a one way street -- like a passenger in a car, the astral form is just along for the ride.
This means several things relevant to this discussion:
1. A projecting mage cannot carry a dual-natured cat, because it is the physical body that controls the movement.
2. A net coated with dual-natured bacteria could trap an astrally projecting mage, because the mage would be unable to move through the astral form and would be unable to move the physical form.
3. A dual natured being cannot be climb an astral ladder.
4. Spirits cannot ghoul-slap other ghouls, but ghouls can ghoul-slap spirits.
Also, when Demerzel based his argument on the lack of Force in the astral world, Demerzel was exactly right, because "astral forms are not defined by physical laws." (p. 112).
This means several things relevant to this discussion:
1. A projecting mage cannot carry a dual-natured cat, because it is the physical body that controls the movement.
2. A net coated with dual-natured bacteria could trap an astrally projecting mage, because the mage would be unable to move through the astral form and would be unable to move the physical form.
3. A dual natured being cannot be climb an astral ladder.
4. Spirits cannot ghoul-slap other ghouls, but ghouls can ghoul-slap spirits.
Also, when Demerzel based his argument on the lack of Force in the astral world, Demerzel was exactly right, because "astral forms are not defined by physical laws." (p. 112).
| QUOTE (Fastball) |
| 2. A net coated with dual-natured bacteria could trap an astrally projecting mage, because the mage would be unable to move through the astral form and would be unable to move the physical form. |
Now the tricky part. You take your net coated with astrally-active bacteria. Astrally perceiving, you throw the net (taking a penalty for performing a physical action while perceiving the Astral) over the astral form of a projecting magician.
What happens?
* The bacteria cannot be physically pulled free of the net by an Astral 'force'.
* The astral form of the magician cannot pass through the astral form of the bacteria.
* The net is physically pulled to the ground by the force of gravity.
* The interaction of the astral forms cannot affect the physical net.
The net has to end up flat on the ground, yes? There's nothing to support it. The astral form of the net has to follow it. If you're on the third floor of a building, then I suppose the magician is forced through the floor. But what if the surface you're standing on also has an astral presence? Where does the magician end up?
Mass, Volume, Force of the Physical Side are these. Free your mind from the Physical Side...
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Mass, Volume, Force of the Physical Side are these. Free your mind from the Physical Side... |
If volume weren't an issue, then the magician's astral form would just slip through the holes in the net
Mass doesn't apply, obviously, but the very fact that there are rules about how astral forms being impermeable to each other shows that they possess volume and position. Incidentally...one thought I had on this situation was to handle it in a manner similar to an astral form that is forced through an astral barrier.
WEll I'm feeling lazy again so I'm not going to double-check, but if my aging memory hasn't failed me, the Astral form of Awakened Ivy doesn't conform 100% with its Physical Anchor so I think I'd rule that on the Physical the net ended up flat on the floor, while on the Astral it had tangled the being...
However, using the forcing through barrier rule appeals to me as well, but I think that for balance issues I'd go with the first one.
However, using the forcing through barrier rule appeals to me as well, but I think that for balance issues I'd go with the first one.
Ok so i found the books i remember where mentioning this kind of experience.
In the "Corporate Security Handbook", they talk about the Fab bacteria net gun.
The rules state that the netgun will entangle and "paralyse" the astral form.
This leads to some conclusion that the Astral form cannot carry a dual natured one, but the opposite would seem true.
There is something that goes against that statement when you look at the FAB-UV bacteria. It says that with proper UV light, you can see the special glow and moving of the dual natured bacteria, moved by the astral form.
Even if its bacteria, it MOVES, and even if its seable only by UV sight, it still moves ...
The descriptions are quite technical, and i'm afraid to admit i dont understand everything.
Technicaly, regarding the net : the astral form cannot pass trhough it, true, like a living body cant pass through another one, but the fact it cant move the net its because the dual natured bacteria is directly tied to the net so the astral form cant move the physical net.
Its all paradox actually, and really drives me crazy.
Since a soup of dual natured bacteria can forbid fast astral movement, then it means it doesnt prevent it, so it means the astral form will move the bacterias.
So imho, an astral form can carry a dual natured cat ^^
But how fast ? and what happens when it is carried through a wall ?
In the "Corporate Security Handbook", they talk about the Fab bacteria net gun.
The rules state that the netgun will entangle and "paralyse" the astral form.
This leads to some conclusion that the Astral form cannot carry a dual natured one, but the opposite would seem true.
There is something that goes against that statement when you look at the FAB-UV bacteria. It says that with proper UV light, you can see the special glow and moving of the dual natured bacteria, moved by the astral form.
Even if its bacteria, it MOVES, and even if its seable only by UV sight, it still moves ...
The descriptions are quite technical, and i'm afraid to admit i dont understand everything.
Technicaly, regarding the net : the astral form cannot pass trhough it, true, like a living body cant pass through another one, but the fact it cant move the net its because the dual natured bacteria is directly tied to the net so the astral form cant move the physical net.
Its all paradox actually, and really drives me crazy.
Since a soup of dual natured bacteria can forbid fast astral movement, then it means it doesnt prevent it, so it means the astral form will move the bacterias.
So imho, an astral form can carry a dual natured cat ^^
But how fast ? and what happens when it is carried through a wall ?
IF I remember correctly, Charisma takes the place of Strength on the Astral. So through force of will you would be able to effect dual-natured beings.
Well, my first response is to say, lets not bring prior editions into it.
My point on volume is that your astral form does not necessarily have a static form that cannot flex beyond a certain point without breaking like a physical form would.
I would personally describe the situation as the net falls to the ground, trapping the astral form. Now keep in mind that the spacial relationship between Astral and Physical does no have to be perfect, and while the net may have its physical form on the floor, while still entangling and possibly holding down the target.
As to the passing through barriers thing, I'd be disinclined to allow it. There really aren't rules for being forced through a barrier while purely astral. The rules are for dual natured forms being forced through a barrier. If you extend those rules to pure astral forms being forced you allow for a physical object to disrupt an astral form. That's a little more powerful than I'm inclined to allow.
My point on volume is that your astral form does not necessarily have a static form that cannot flex beyond a certain point without breaking like a physical form would.
I would personally describe the situation as the net falls to the ground, trapping the astral form. Now keep in mind that the spacial relationship between Astral and Physical does no have to be perfect, and while the net may have its physical form on the floor, while still entangling and possibly holding down the target.
As to the passing through barriers thing, I'd be disinclined to allow it. There really aren't rules for being forced through a barrier while purely astral. The rules are for dual natured forms being forced through a barrier. If you extend those rules to pure astral forms being forced you allow for a physical object to disrupt an astral form. That's a little more powerful than I'm inclined to allow.
I don't have a book handy with me right now to look up the reference, but that's not how I remember the FAB-UV working. My memory is that the bacteria was very sensitive to the presence of an astral form, such that any astral form that touched it actually killed the bacteria...and when it died, it released a compound that fluoresced under UV light.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| I would personally describe the situation as the net falls to the ground, trapping the astral form. Now keep in mind that the spacial relationship between Astral and Physical does no have to be perfect, and while the net may have its physical form on the floor, while still entangling and possibly holding down the target. As to the passing through barriers thing, I'd be disinclined to allow it. There really aren't rules for being forced through a barrier while purely astral. The rules are for dual natured forms being forced through a barrier. If you extend those rules to pure astral forms being forced you allow for a physical object to disrupt an astral form. That's a little more powerful than I'm inclined to allow. |
Allowing the astral form to not be PERFECTLY congruent with the physical form does clean things up nicely, at least for this case. It's probably the easiest solution.
As for the other...while I'm not sure I'd do it in THIS case, it's easy to contrive a (perhaps silly) situation where an astral form is forced through a barrier. Don't worry too much about the whole idea of a physical object disrupting an atral form - it's not just ANY physical object, but specifically one that has an astral presence. Or put another way, it's one astral form disrupting another; one of them just happens to be tied to a physical object.
My concern is that an interpretation like that opens the door to weapons that can be wielded by mundanes to damage astral presences. I'm a strict adherant to the separation of Astral and Physical.
Um... weapon foci??? Of course mundanes can't activate a weapon foci.
Um... can be wielded by mundanes??? Well, fine, if you want to edit...
No, but a mundane could pick up a live Ghoul and start wailing on Astral beings with it...
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| No, but a mundane could pick up a live Ghoul and start wailing on Astral beings with it... |
You could push an astral form around with the ghoul, but not be able to damage it, you would need to use astral combat to damage an astral form.
Under the way I view Astral Space and Dual Nature working, I totally agree TheOOB, but if someone were to rule that an Astral Being can pick up and move a Dual Natured Cat then I'd argue that my Ghoul should deal damage.
| QUOTE (TheOOB @ Apr 3 2007, 04:53 PM) | ||
You could push an astral form around with the ghoul, but not be able to damage it, you would need to use astral combat to damage an astral form. |
Right. Astral forms displace each other, but they can't be bruised or cut or so forth. They're injured through an act of will, not physical force. A weapon focus doesn't injure an astral form by virtue of its shape; it acts to focus the will of the wielder. A Force 3 weapon focus penknife and a Force 3 weapon focus greatsword are equally effective in astral combat.
EDIT: Except, of course, I'm totally wrong. Was I on crack when I wrote this? Why did I think that the type of weapon didn't matter when using a weapon focus in astral combat?
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