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odinson
Immunity to normal weapons is not really effective. A hardened armor of 2XMagic is only useful if your magic is at least 4. At 1 or 2 any gun will hurt you, at 3 any gun stronger than a light pistol will hurt you.

I would propose a change so that Immunity would give a hardened armor of 6+Magic.

This would mean even a force 1 spirit could be immune to light pistols. Everything less than a magic 6 becomes more powerful and every creature with magic 6+ becomes less powerful. It also means a force 10 spirit doesn't have the same hardened armor as a great dragon.

Comments?
Demerzel
A force 1 or 2 is supposed to be easy to kill.
Backgammon
What the fuck? That's insane. Low level spirits are meant to be killable. If you want to take the immunity litteraly, just ditch the rules and say anything with immunity to normal weapons CANNOT be hurt by normal weapons. I don't recommend it though.
knasser
QUOTE (Demerzel)
A force 1 or 2 is supposed to be easy to kill.


And a force 10 is supposed to be terrifying.

Happy with things how they are, sorry.

-K.
Luddite
IMO there's absolutely no need to buff Immunity in that way. Force 1 spirits shouldn't be immune to anything at all. A Force 1 spirit sucks at life, though certain of their powers can be extremely useful they are not intended to be able to survive combat with anything other than a six year old with a letter opener, and not a particularly bright or athletic six year old either.

On the other hand, most spirits that the PCs will face (or use) with the expectation that they are combat effective will be between force 4 and 6, which makes them immune to quite a range of weapons.

The other reason not to implement your idea is that it makes force 7+ spirits less powerful. This doesn't need to be done either.

There are plenty of things that need changing in 4th ed shadowrun, this isn't one of them.
Kyoto Kid
...yeah, I'm with Knasser and Backgammon on this, don't need to make the big bugaboo spirits even more tougher than they already are. Keep in mind spirit armour is hardened. This means (correct me if I'm wrong) if the weapon's base damage doesn't exceed the armour's value it goes *tink*. The average spirit force I usually have run into has been 4, that means 8/8 "hardened" armour.

Now I am not quite sure if weapon AP and ammo type comes into play on this or just for the spirit's soak roll. If the latter is the case, you would need a PJSS to tag a force 4 spirit. Haven't seen many characters packing these as of late.
Dread Polack
Correct me if I'm wrong, but just like determining whether bullets do Stun or Physical damage, you compare modified damage to modified armor to determine whether the spirit rolls damage resistance.

That is, base damage + net hits are compared to base armor (force x 2) - armor penetration. Vehicles also work this way.

That means even a force 4 spirit hit with a heavy pistol with -2 AP has 6 effective armor. One net hit on your Ares preditor will force a damage resistance roll of Body + 6 dice. It'll take a few hits, just like trying to kill an ork or troll.

The Dread Polack
Kyoto Kid
...so this would mean KK can tag a force 4 on one hit for base damage if her Warhawks are loaded eith EXEX. [DV7 / -3AP]. It would then roll 9d6 (Force +5) to soak 7DV. Cool... She's good enough for at least 2 - 3 net hits, so she could potentially disrupt the spirit entirely on a very good shot.
Garrowolf
I personally don't understand why spirits should be effected by bullets anyway. I always thought that was silly. I make immunity to normal weapons total. There is no way for a regular person to shoot a spirit in my games. However I play up the willpower attack rule.

The problem isn't that allowing immunity makes spirits too powerful. It actually makes them more powerful to make it a type of armor because it forces everyone to only have high force spirits.

I think that it depends on how you see Shadowrun. If you see it as a setting that combines Cyberpunk and Magic then the spirits shouldn't be effected because in stories about spirits and ghosts they aren't.

However if Shadowrun is it's own dimension where the rules and fluff are the ultimate source then we have no right to disagree with anything in the setting.

Personally I take the former view.
Prime Mover
AP is based on penetration of modern armor, surely spirits armor is'nt armor per say but mechanic to show how resistant spirit is to mundane damage.

Therefore I allow weapons DV+net hits as norm against fx2 hardened armor but dont count the AP of weapon. Guess allowing shear violence factor to affect spirit simimar to willpower attack but not physics of AP.
Cynic project
Garr, WTF? I mean really. If somehting can touch you.you can touch something.

The simple fact si that gosts and spirits have no set rules to follow in any universal way. The ghosts in one story are nto teh same ever ghsot from any other story.
Garrowolf
Ghosts and spirits can be touched by a person - a living person. What story has ever has spirits that were vulnerable to bullets?

Actually most stories have it where you can't touch them but they can touch you.
Fastball
QUOTE (Prime Mover)
AP is based on penetration of modern armor, surely spirits armor is'nt armor per say but mechanic to show how resistant spirit is to mundane damage.

In support of your theory, the description of immunity says the critter gains an "Armor rating." The presence of quotes shows that it isn't real armor and suggests that AP was not intended to apply.
Demerzel
IMO the AP issue is an example of simplicity of game mechanic at the expense of physics. I'm willing to suspend a lot of disbelief to keep from having to add exceptions to rules.

If it's an armor value it doesn't matter if it's an "armor value" or arnor value to me. The mechanic is that you treat armor the way you treat armor. The core mechanic in SR4 is afterall a simplified core mechanic.
Glyph
QUOTE (Fastball)
In support of your theory, the description of immunity says the critter gains an "Armor rating."  The presence of quotes shows that it isn't real armor and suggests that AP was not intended to apply.

No it doesn't. If a rule such as AP is not meant to apply, it should be out-and-out stated, not inferred. All the quotes mean is that "Armor rating" is being used to describe something that isn't quite the same as what the term normally describes. If spirits can be potentially harmed by weapons, all of the normal weapons rules, such as AP, should apply. I don't see why a Ruger Thunderbolt should be less effective, and an Ares Viper more effective, versus a spirit.


Spirits are still tough to damage. Double their force in hardened armor, dodge skill equal to their Force, and generally a Reaction equal to their Force with a positive modifier. Not to mention Edge equal to Force. Even a Force: 3 spirit is far from a pushover. They really, really don't need a power boost.
Fastball
QUOTE (Glyph)
No it doesn't. If a rule such as AP is not meant to apply, it should be out-and-out stated, not inferred.


I agree. I was simply pointing out there is some evidence to support his house rule.

I could also point out that the description for hardened armor specifically states that AP applies.

The immunity power references hardened armor (suggesting AP applies) and then describes why the "armor rating" is "hardened" without specifying that AP applies (suggesting it doesn't).

I would apply the AP for consistency's sake, but if I found myself in a game where the GM did it differently, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't mention it as a house rule.
odinson
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...yeah, I'm with Knasser and Backgammon on this, don't need to make the big bugaboo spirits even more tougher than they already are.

Actually changing to 6+magic will mean any spirit with a force higher than 6 will have a LOWER armor rating than in the current rules. As they stand now the force 10 is on par with the great dragon. Changing will mean a force 10 has 16 instead of 20 hardened armor.

Jack Kain
Lets remember there is no reason to try and cripple the mundanes when it comes to fighting spirits. For a say force 5 or 6 spirit Harden Armor of 10-12 would be hard to overcome for someone who isn't specialized in combat.

The Street Samurai's may roll 14-20+ dice but a lot of hackers, faces and other non meat world combat characters don't have that advantage.

My own character rolls 18 dice when he shoots with his specialized choice of gun. However the Technomancer Brody rolls around half that amount.

Would he be able to even scratch a Force 6 Spirit with his Aries Pred? Unlikely he'd be lucky just to land a hit.

Superbum
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
Ghosts and spirits can be touched by a person - a living person. What story has ever has spirits that were vulnerable to bullets?

Actually most stories have it where you can't touch them but they can touch you.

What if they are enchanted oricalum bullets?
Dentris
A weapon is considered magical only if it is bonded to you AND touching your body. Thus, bullets (even if you bond them) are never magical since they leave the vinicity of your astral form...
Superbum
Please don't take my above post serious.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (odinson)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 12 2007, 03:19 PM)
...yeah, I'm with Knasser and Backgammon on this, don't need to make the big bugaboo spirits even more tougher than they already are.

Actually changing to 6+magic will mean any spirit with a force higher than 6 will have a LOWER armor rating than in the current rules. As they stand now the force 10 is on par with the great dragon. Changing will mean a force 10 has 16 instead of 20 hardened armor.

...isn't a spirit's magic equal to its force?
fool

[/QUOTE]What if they are enchanted oricalum bullets?[QUOTE]

went down this road in an earlier post. Simplyenchant the bullets as vessels and have a spirit possess them, then shoot at nasty spirit and the bullet does its normal damage according to the possession rules. twirl.gif
odinson
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (odinson @ Apr 13 2007, 01:07 AM)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 12 2007, 03:19 PM)
...yeah, I'm with Knasser and Backgammon on this, don't need to make the big bugaboo spirits even more tougher than they already are.

Actually changing to 6+magic will mean any spirit with a force higher than 6 will have a LOWER armor rating than in the current rules. As they stand now the force 10 is on par with the great dragon. Changing will mean a force 10 has 16 instead of 20 hardened armor.

...isn't a spirit's magic equal to its force?

Yes magic is equal to force, and Immunity gives you 2XMagic hardened armor.
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