I’ve re-read the subscription part several times and I get the same conclusion every time, one specific part is this on page 212 SR4.
In game terms, your persona maintains a subscription list of nodes that you are accessing and that are allowed to establish communication with you
I see the above as a point that in order to connect to the matrix (some public node) you need 1 open subscription slot. One slot is open to the current node your Persona travels to. This also means that if I have 8 subscription slots on my Response 4 ‘link then I can only use 7 of them for connecting gear to my PAN and the eight one is for my matrix connection.
Is this right or have I misunderstood things? This would mean that one MUST be subscribed to something and that also means that whenever something gets hacked one has access to whatever was subscribed to it. This opens up another question.
Isn’t subscription two-way? And what access lvl is it. Just because I got hacked doesn’t mean that they can roam free right? I can have a restricted subscription with limited user access right?
Full Version: Subscription Lists
A subscription list is a list of nodes that is allowed to access your commlink automatically. It includes stuff like your cyberware, your image link, your weapons, any drones you might have, your vehicle, stuff like that.
"The Matrix" is the aggregation of all nodes in the world that are interconnected. You don't want that able to access your commlink automatically.
Basically, the idea is that you can't be in control of thirty devices at once. If you're subscribed to your drone (and vice versa), you don't have to spend the complex action to log into it in order to control it directly, for example.
"The Matrix" is the aggregation of all nodes in the world that are interconnected. You don't want that able to access your commlink automatically.
Basically, the idea is that you can't be in control of thirty devices at once. If you're subscribed to your drone (and vice versa), you don't have to spend the complex action to log into it in order to control it directly, for example.
Well, i know WHAT it is and that i subscribe my gear that i want to interact my PAN, but as far as i can see I also need one subscription slot for the matrix, just so i can communicate with it.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Well, i know WHAT it is and that i subscribe my gear that i want to interact my PAN, but as far as i can see I also need one subscription slot for the matrix, just so i can communicate with it. |
If that's the way you want to play it, knock yourself out.
As far as I can tell, though, a subscription is an open connection. Modernly, you don't really have an open connection to the internet; you're not "logged on" to the internet (if you have DSL, your modem is probably logged into something, but that's a different issue that's beyond your computer).
I explained this like last week, but I'll copy and paste that here (with some edits for clarity):
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| Note: this is a Very Abstract Description, and not something you should think allows you to get a job as a network administrator or something. Network communications operate on several layers, each of which is only semi-dependent on one another. One of the most abstract ways this is expressed is with a seven-layer model that describes the workings of the computer and its communication, with the program being used on layer 7 and the actual medium of data exchange (e.g. wires, wireless, smoke signals, whatever) at layer 1. Routing stops at layer 3. Nothing above layer 3 cares about routing (this is not entirely accurate, as firewalls also operate at layer 4, but for just plain routing of traffic, it's true). "Subscriptions" as described by the BBB (active connections) are handled at layers 4-7, mostly 4 (to route the traffic to the correct program) and 5 (which keeps the connection open). So a device can operate with a completely isolated (operating) system, but still be a router, without worrying about anything else. Routing functions are handled in the hardware, and the System of the commlink (operating at layers 5-7) does not have to spend resources handling it. |
Probably a better model to use to explain this would be the TCP/IP model, which I can post about from work, if there's interest.
So just to keep it simple one can always say that there is always a connection "slot" for the matrix then.
ugh, if im to post my thought on this, i have a bad feeling that i may as well create a pdf...
as for dragging the iso model (iirc) into, its overkill. yet the basic idea of having a separation between a hardware and software layer helps when one go into topics like electronic warfare...
i think i used it in some way in some threads around the time SR4 was first released. mostly the issue with R4 matrix so far is that it throws around terminology without going into enough detail. like, does one require to have a subscription pr device in a PAN? and does a PAN show up as individual nodes in the matrix or as a single node?
and what is a node exactly? is there a 1:1 between hardware and software, or can 1 node be a matrix representation for multiple hardware devices connected together (like say a office network)? and if its the latter, what happens if one attach a personal device to the office network (like say bringing your personal comlink to work)?
hopefully they will clear up stuff like this in unwired. if not, and they add even more rules on top of the exiting ones, it will turn into a never ending interpretation flame here on dumpshock...
as for dragging the iso model (iirc) into, its overkill. yet the basic idea of having a separation between a hardware and software layer helps when one go into topics like electronic warfare...
i think i used it in some way in some threads around the time SR4 was first released. mostly the issue with R4 matrix so far is that it throws around terminology without going into enough detail. like, does one require to have a subscription pr device in a PAN? and does a PAN show up as individual nodes in the matrix or as a single node?
and what is a node exactly? is there a 1:1 between hardware and software, or can 1 node be a matrix representation for multiple hardware devices connected together (like say a office network)? and if its the latter, what happens if one attach a personal device to the office network (like say bringing your personal comlink to work)?
hopefully they will clear up stuff like this in unwired. if not, and they add even more rules on top of the exiting ones, it will turn into a never ending interpretation flame here on dumpshock...
Far as I can tell, accessing a node takes up a subscription slot. So, if that means you want to keep a slot open at all times, just in case you need to access something extra, then sure. For a drone rigger, for example, during a run, he may fill up his subscription list with drones and his allies' commlinks, because that's all he'll need.
A node is a device's matrix presence, plain and simple. Each device is a "location". It's not terribly well defined in the rules, but I've interpreted it such that a single device could conceivably have multiple linked nodes in it (much like a computer with multiple drive partitions). Likewise, a number of related nodes might have a central "master" node that controls them, which could be an actual computer or some other kind of interface. Security systems are likely to be like this. (So that you can access the hundreds of cameras, sensors, etc. that a building might have relatively easily.)
A node is a device's matrix presence, plain and simple. Each device is a "location". It's not terribly well defined in the rules, but I've interpreted it such that a single device could conceivably have multiple linked nodes in it (much like a computer with multiple drive partitions). Likewise, a number of related nodes might have a central "master" node that controls them, which could be an actual computer or some other kind of interface. Security systems are likely to be like this. (So that you can access the hundreds of cameras, sensors, etc. that a building might have relatively easily.)
Networks can definitely be treated like single nodes.
In some cases, I think, you get to treat network groups like single subscriptions, don't you? Your PAN would be 1 subscription, your SR team's "chat room"/tactical data sharing would be 1 subscription, etc.
In some cases, I think, you get to treat network groups like single subscriptions, don't you? Your PAN would be 1 subscription, your SR team's "chat room"/tactical data sharing would be 1 subscription, etc.
Generally, your PAN is all the devices subscribed to your comm. Meaning, each device takes up a slot. You could subscribe them to something else and subscribe that device to your comm, but that would lead to a delay in your commands reaching those devices, since you are actually commanding the "hub" device to relay commands.
My initial interpretation was similar to Jopp's (i.e. you need an open subscription slot to connect to a local network or the Matrix). But after my 9th or 10th reading of the wireless world chapter (
) I realized that I was kind of stuck in SR3's host-based thinking.
Could be totally off base, but it seems to me that a node represents anything you want to subscribe to in order to affect it in some way. It could be the local office terminal (which may have subnodes that represent all the various office appliances) or an enemy's PAN (which may have subnodes like thier cyberarm or smartgun). Or you could try to subscribe those subnodes directly.
But you don't need any specific node to access the matrix for data searches or communications because data coming from the matrix is routed through whatever nodes you are near, and those nodes simply recieve and retransmit that data without any access to it (unless the signal is intercepted via EW).
In effect if your enemy's commlink was the fastest/closest link your commlink can find to the matrix, you could get a commcall that is routed through your enemy's commlink, but you don't need to subscribe his PAN to get it.
EDIT: but this also brings up a few questions- can I block anyone hacking my PAN by filling all my sibscription slots? Or can one hack a node without subscribing it? Guess I'll start my 11th reading...
) I realized that I was kind of stuck in SR3's host-based thinking.Could be totally off base, but it seems to me that a node represents anything you want to subscribe to in order to affect it in some way. It could be the local office terminal (which may have subnodes that represent all the various office appliances) or an enemy's PAN (which may have subnodes like thier cyberarm or smartgun). Or you could try to subscribe those subnodes directly.
But you don't need any specific node to access the matrix for data searches or communications because data coming from the matrix is routed through whatever nodes you are near, and those nodes simply recieve and retransmit that data without any access to it (unless the signal is intercepted via EW).
In effect if your enemy's commlink was the fastest/closest link your commlink can find to the matrix, you could get a commcall that is routed through your enemy's commlink, but you don't need to subscribe his PAN to get it.
EDIT: but this also brings up a few questions- can I block anyone hacking my PAN by filling all my sibscription slots? Or can one hack a node without subscribing it? Guess I'll start my 11th reading...
In my mind and in the mind of those I've gamed with a subscription allows the exchange of data. Camera feeds, trajectories, temp, biomonitor status, etc. With no subscription you have no streaming content so to speak. If I subscribe something it becomes Trusted. [my term]
Trusted/subscribed things could be small like an RFID or big like a commlink/PAN. It all depends on how much stuff you want to have able to access YOU.
Trusted/subscribed things could be small like an RFID or big like a commlink/PAN. It all depends on how much stuff you want to have able to access YOU.
From the FAQ:
A subscription is the equivilant of TCP's three-way handsahke. It is the establishing of a a connection and doesnt necessarily grant any privillages.
So by this means yes, you would need to have an open connection to hit the matrix.
A subscription is the equivilant of TCP's three-way handsahke. It is the establishing of a a connection and doesnt necessarily grant any privillages.
So by this means yes, you would need to have an open connection to hit the matrix.
| QUOTE |
| From the FAQ: A subscription is the equivilant of TCP's three-way handsahke. It is the establishing of a a connection and doesnt necessarily grant any privillages. So by this means yes, you would need to have an open connection to hit the matrix. |
Wow, that sucks. That means smartgun links can't connect to commlinks anymore since they have max connections of zero.
| QUOTE (Wasabi) | ||
Wow, that sucks. That means smartgun links can't connect to commlinks anymore since they have max connections of zero. |
since when do smartgun links have a device rating of 0?
Since when do they not?
oh crap, i can see where this is going...
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| Since when do they not? |
| QUOTE |
| Device Type Device Rating Example Dumb 1 General appliances, bodyware Simple 2 Public terminals, entertainment systems Average 3 Standard personal electronics, headware, vehicles, drones, home/business terminals Complex 4 Security vehicles, alphaware, research terminals, security devices Smart 5 High-end devices, betaware, security terminals, military vehicles Cutting-Edge 6 Deltaware, credsticks |
Well considering they are restricted devices I would say, Smartgun systems are a 'security' device and have a default rating of 4
Credsticks? Where are you quoting from, laughingowl?
Sample Devices page 214 of the hymnal
Huh. No sh**.
Cool, good call.
Cool, good call.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| So just to keep it simple one can always say that there is always a connection "slot" for the matrix then. |
If you mean a free "slot," then the short answer is "yes," and the long answer is "close enough."
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| A subscription is the equivilant of TCP's three-way handsahke. It is the establishing of a a connection and doesnt necessarily grant any privillages. So by this means yes, you would need to have an open connection to hit the matrix. |
I believe it's the other way around. You need to have a matrix connection in order to create an open connection. I shall explain my reasoning in boring detail within the spoiler; click it if ye dare.
[ Spoiler ]
I I will rephrase to make it accurate since you never really 'hit' the matrix as pointed out by Aaron.
"So by this means yes, you would need to have an open connection to hit a node on the matrix (or any other node for that matter).
"So by this means yes, you would need to have an open connection to hit a node on the matrix (or any other node for that matter).
This opens up another bag of troubles then…
Since one can only have Response X2 subscription slots would that mean that at any given time only Response X2 amount of users are allowed to be logged on at once to a Node?
Or, would it be more true that in case of corporations (and regular commlink users) that the subscription list with outside connection slots can be unlimited in size. If so then my last subscription slot can be “Visitors” and channel people through my node?...
Or even worse, I limit my connections to 1 and make there is no SPACE for others to access my commlink…
Gah! Explanation needed
For simplicity I’d rule that there is a separate router inside the commlink that uses your commlink as a node for pure matrix access and for others to “ride” your signal/node to reach the matrix.
Accessing the matrix and accessing the commlink on a node becomes two different things, you can use my commlink as a node to reach the matrix but it is a separate thing to access my commlink.
Since one can only have Response X2 subscription slots would that mean that at any given time only Response X2 amount of users are allowed to be logged on at once to a Node?
Or, would it be more true that in case of corporations (and regular commlink users) that the subscription list with outside connection slots can be unlimited in size. If so then my last subscription slot can be “Visitors” and channel people through my node?...
Or even worse, I limit my connections to 1 and make there is no SPACE for others to access my commlink…
Gah! Explanation needed
For simplicity I’d rule that there is a separate router inside the commlink that uses your commlink as a node for pure matrix access and for others to “ride” your signal/node to reach the matrix.
Accessing the matrix and accessing the commlink on a node becomes two different things, you can use my commlink as a node to reach the matrix but it is a separate thing to access my commlink.
Indeed.
I tried to wrap my head around subscriptions - it didn't happen.
Either you take it by the book - and have to use tree structures for any surveillance sensor network, home network, etc. - and most runners PANs... i.E. everything.
Great Fun. Not.
Or you handwave connections, assuming 'it just works', accepting subscription limits only as an artificial 'restriction how many drones and agent can be controlled at the same time, minus stuff you are hacking.'
I tried to wrap my head around subscriptions - it didn't happen.
Either you take it by the book - and have to use tree structures for any surveillance sensor network, home network, etc. - and most runners PANs... i.E. everything.
Great Fun. Not.
Or you handwave connections, assuming 'it just works', accepting subscription limits only as an artificial 'restriction how many drones and agent can be controlled at the same time, minus stuff you are hacking.'
It can certainly makes TM's without spiked Logic weaker, thats for sure.
Here's my take on subscriptions.
You are allowed to have unlimited subscriptions no matter your System. However, you may only have a number of ACTIVE subscriptions equal to System x 2. You only have access to the one with which you have an active subscription but are only allowed to focus on 1 node at a time. All the others are like "Favorites" in internet explorer (from Accessing Multiple Nodes, 218 and the definitions in the FAQ regarding subscription and access).
This means that for a corporate node all the people accessing (actively subscribing) to it there is no issue for the node itself. It isn't violating its limit because it doesn't need to actively subscribe to them. However, if the node somhow needs to do something to the nodes accessing it then it needs to access them. It would have to actively subscribe to a max of system x2.
You are allowed to have unlimited subscriptions no matter your System. However, you may only have a number of ACTIVE subscriptions equal to System x 2. You only have access to the one with which you have an active subscription but are only allowed to focus on 1 node at a time. All the others are like "Favorites" in internet explorer (from Accessing Multiple Nodes, 218 and the definitions in the FAQ regarding subscription and access).
This means that for a corporate node all the people accessing (actively subscribing) to it there is no issue for the node itself. It isn't violating its limit because it doesn't need to actively subscribe to them. However, if the node somhow needs to do something to the nodes accessing it then it needs to access them. It would have to actively subscribe to a max of system x2.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Or even worse, I limit my connections to 1 and make there is no SPACE for others to access my commlink… For simplicity I’d rule that there is a separate router inside the commlink that uses your commlink as a node for pure matrix access and for others to “ride” your signal/node to reach the matrix. Accessing the matrix and accessing the commlink on a node becomes two different things, you can use my commlink as a node to reach the matrix but it is a separate thing to access my commlink. |
This was my delema as well and I came to the same conclusion.
It just seems simpler to rule that data can be routed to and from the matrix through any node within range, and subscription is only required if you want to access / affect some node.
then comes the question, does a camera access the node or does the node access the camera? 
Well isn't it really one node accessing another if your PAN has represents one node and the camera represents its own node?
This is assuming the camera is not "slaved" to another network that has its own node right?
This is assuming the camera is not "slaved" to another network that has its own node right?
hmm, i should not have used node in that line, i should have used mainframe or office system as node can be just about anything...
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