I finally tracked down Errata 1.5 (someone kindly pointed out that the errata link at the top of shadowrunrpg.com goes to a different page than the errata link to the left) and am seriously wondering what they were thinking on some thing.

I like the instruction rules...granted, I ended up creating some rules for availalbility of finding an instructor and costs...but once that was completed, I think they all fit together nicely...

But even without, I think the pace in the errata is on par with what most GMs were doing anyways...granted, I don't know of anyone who would every try to train up a skill group now:)

Oh, and I also houseruled the ability to train up to Logic amount of skills simultaneously. Honestly, it allows players to track their downtime and improve, but doesn't force us to really have to make it a huge part of our sessions...

My group ignores all rules related to Instruction when it comes to skills. we in no way find it can possibly enrich our gaming experience.



I feel that Flechetes should be or already are limited to weapons that list the use them. There are no Flechetes Aries Pred's. Or Flechetes assault rifles.


While on normal armor the impact is 2 less then ballistic, improvements such as bone lacing, orthol skin and dermal plating as well as a trolls natural armor can round these out.
A simple helmet for 100 adds +1 ballistic and +2 Impact. This is an easy addition to any armor set up.
Now as I read the
Encumbrance penalties don't apply until the worn armor is 2 points above your (body x2).
So assuming your base armor is an even number (armor jacket, lined coat), and not an odd number. (like the auctioneer suit). Wearing the helm should be fine.

Drones and monsters with harden armor can be problematic for flechetes.
In this area the armor is even so you need 3 more hits to overcome the modified DV rating otherwise the damage is totally negated

And remember that positive AP doesn't matter if there is no armor in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's a rule somewhere. So flechette fired at a naked guy is +2 DV, no AP modifier at all.

However, I don't like the jump you get between naked guy and guy who puts on a thick wool sweater with armor rating 1/1, so I expand that to a house rule that states that positive AP modifiers can't more than double the amount of armor present. It's a blanket rule, although I've only ever see it apply to flechette fired at extremely lightly armored people.

Perhaps you could make an argument for a physical stat rather than intuition, but I would prefer there is just one rule rather than two. Rules explosions is what made the old version of Shadowrun difficult to run.

If you feel that the attribute linked to the skill you're learning should play a larger role, you could always use the average of the two stats.

I don't mind training time rules, but they should be clearly optional. In our campaign (You're the same Wilcoxon I sit across from every week, right?), we've actually had no down time in-game, and scarcely more than a week has passed in-game anyway. I'd have 36 karma sitting around without a single point spent!

I also agree with the comment on nerfing explosive ammo.

We're not seriously going to argue the reality of intuition vs. muscle-memory and how it should be translated into dice-rolling, are we?

Dread Polack

Actually "muscle memory" is quite complex and involves both the CNS and PNS. And it should be noted that most of the parts of the CNS that are involved in motor pattern generation have nothing to do with consciousness at all (i.e. primary motor cortex, cerebellum, reticular activating system and cortical spinal tracts). [Just finished a neurology course in medical school... ]

So I agree with Wilcoxon. If you want to inject medical science into the rules (always a bad idea) it makes little sense to link learning active skills to INT.

And it does make a difference. Someone who invests heavily in physical attributes should be able to learn active skills easier and be equally penalized if they neglect their mental attributes and try to learn some other types of skills.

I'm definitely house ruling this one...

i would argue that Int(uition) makes decent sense. it's linked to the Perception skill, which is important because it allows you to more accurately sense the differences that separate doing something right from doing something wrong. for instance, someone with low Int might spend weeks at the range and not improve much because he can't detect the tiny differences in his stance that are throwing off his aim. a person with higher Int is more able to assume the same firing stance every time, due to their higher awareness. practice does not make perfect--perfect practice makes perfect; doing something wrong a hundred times will not help you do it right. a person with higher Int(uition) is, arguably, more able to practice perfectly.

mfb- this is also a very good point. Maybe an average of the two or some combination would be appropriate. Or perhaps an early planning step using intuition that shortens or extends the training interval. I kind of like that idea.

But we're really splitting hairs here. If I needed fast and dirty personally I'd use the physical attribute...

Wow! This Intuition you speak of is starting to sound esoteric!!

Actually thats another good point. I guess I kind of interpreted intuition to be more related to the limbic system and mid brain (instinct, emotion, memory, drive motivated behavior, etc). I think your interpretation is equally valid in a lot of ways.

But the problem with EX rounds are they're explosive and loud. You can silence them until they impact with your opponent and then you're screwed. However, Flechette rounds can (according to canon) be silenced. At all times. I'd prefer hollow points, Red Spirals (non-canon HP rounds with monowire wrapped around the round during the casting phase) or even good ol' Firepower rounds.

Usually the head is unarmored and the hands too. So are your average sarariman, unless you issue them all Sleeping Tiger suits or Executive Suite suits.

Shouldn't logic apply for mental skills like academic knowledge and most technical skills? Logic is the mental stat dedicated to memory, reasoning and general brainpower and ease at grasp in magical theory and technical skils are listed as examples. Physical skills yeah it makes esne. In addition, its pretty screwy that cerebal enhancers don't make learning easier. Though any GM who bothers wiht learning tests can also chose to use logic as well.

First of all, this nerf was sorely needed I think. I already use Serbitar's house rules anyway, which I think is better as they nerf EX etc further, making them +1 DV +1AP and +2DV +1 AP, respectively. For flechette I like the +2 DV +5AP in most cases, although lmiting the +AP to double the impact armor seems like a good fix.

Additionally, I have halved the cots of flechette ammo (to 50 ) for most weapons, and even consider flechette for shotguns to be "regular" ammo, meaning they "only" cost 20 per 10 rounds.

Heck, ammo is overpriced in SR as it is.

Oh, and really "thick wool sweaters" doesen't provide armor 1/1 as it is not an armor. Heck, even leather jacket is a stretch (but I allow it as leather has been used for armor for a long time).

I don't know, I can buy that the micro charge in EX ammo isn't really that much louder then normal rounds (Although I still rule that you can't really silence them either.), but EX-EX by defination carries a more powerful explosive charge, and Fields of Fire makes it clear that the EX Series does use very small explosive charges in order to improve fragmentation...


So the way I see it, an EX round makes a noise akin to a small firecracker when it hits, whereas an EX-EX round sounds like a very large firecracker, perhaps even an M-80, so in either case all a silencer really provides is the -4 to track the shooter, but of course does nothing to hide the rounds themselves, in my games if EX Series ammo comes out, then the Run has already been fragged because you sure as hell aren't going to be able to make a quick and quiet take-down...

However as an aside, unless my aging memory is failing me again I seem to recall EX-APDS appearing in one of the sourcebooks, but I don't remember whether any Fluff appeared explaining how it worked...

i don't think leather having an armor value is much of a stretch. bikers don't just wear it because it looks cool--if your bike goes over, wearing leather can save you from some serious road rash. in a fight, a leather can turn a blade that's not coming straight in (ie, it gives you a better chance at protecting yourself). it doesn't provide much cushioning against fists or baseball bats, but, well, SR's armor system isn't perfect.

So if leather gives armor 2/2 (which it does) what's an example of something that would have an armor value of 1/1?

a leather vest. i have always assumed that "leather", in SR, means "full leathers"--pants, jacket, boots, gloves, maybe even one of those cool leather bandannas.

Good point. Not quite what I meant to ask, but a good example. Sure, you could come up with a smaller value by going for smaller coverage, a 12-inch thick steel codpiece might give 1/1 as well.
What I meant to ask was about a material that, when covering the majority of the body, still only gives 1/1.
If full-body clothing is 0/0, and full-body leather is 2/2, full-body <what?> is 1/1?
That's what I meant to ask.

Troll skin?

In the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG, a leather jacket or "several layers of tweed" was the lightest "armor" described.

I have a canvas trench coat that I'd think is somewhere between heavy clothing and full leathers. Perhaps sturdy canvas or similar fabric could count as 1/1 armor. A heavy parka or poncho might accomplish the same.

Dread Polack

Well personally I'd give heavy Demien clothes a 0/1 or maybe 1/1 just to keep it simple...

Armor could potentially be extremely common amongst those with a fair bit of paranoia and a handful of cred. It's pretty feasible for just about anyone to wear a 600 nuyen flexi-wrap armored vest underneath a normal outfit. It's more effective than armored clothing and potentially more stylish and economical, as long as you're not trying to wear one under a mesh top or a bikini at the beach. Just about all of my runners skip the Actioneer suit in favor of a vest and some chic gear when I need to make a good impression.

As far as the the silencer issue goes, Rotbart's right- Firearms are likely to be detected, silencer or not. There's an old Finnish saying from the Winter War that states that silencers make men invisible, not silent. Silencers reduce noise and muzzle flash, which helps more with maintaining an element of surprise for a few extra moments than it does with escaping detection entirely. People don't know where you're coming from, but they -do- know you're there. The only way you're really going to avoid detection entirely is if any potential listeners are too unfamiliar with weapons to recognize a muffled shot as gunfire when they hear it (which is part of why the MP-5 has a rep as being so silent, it DOES make noise, but it it doesn't make noise that sounds like a gun). Regardless, a bullet can make a lot of noise as it tears through the air and then makes impact whether or not it's EX-EX, and I see no reason to nerf the stuff any further by making it more noticeable.

One thing in favor of Flechette is its ability to do a widespread and hit more than one opponent. I'm pretty sure explosive can't do that. Unless you're using a full auto weapon. It may not always be a good option, but it is an option.

Theres something to be said about lightly injuring many opponents, you might be able to kill an opponent or two with normal ammo, but giving a larger group of enemies negative modifiers can really save your butt.