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odinson
So has anyone run a game where players did something to get on the bad side of the mafia? I was wondering exactly how horrible things got after. I've got some players that owe a favour to the mafia, and I can just picture the sammy doing something incredibly stupid and really messing things up. Also if one person in a group was to make a powerful enemy like that do you think they would come after the entire group or just make an example of the one person.

I'm probably just being paranoid and nothing bad will happen, but it's always better to be prepared.
YQM
Friends of my Friends are my Friends.
Enemies of my Enemy are my Friends.
Friends of my Enemy are my Enemies.
Enemies of my Friend are my Enemies.

the_dunner
You *might* want to take a look through the Shadowrun Missions Denver campaign. The whole campaign is kind of focused on this theme. wink.gif
2bit
Everyone's different, but if it were my game:

If the rest of the team was backing the sammy when he did this stupid thing, even present, then they are guilty by association and the mob will come down on them all.

If the sammy is clearly acting alone, then I would have the Don try to divide them. "Eliminate 'dis man who has offended me, and your debt will be repaid." Just remember the Don only makes offers that cannot be refused! The puppet master doesn't pull strings unless he has the clear upper hand.
Backgammon
Yeah. Long story short, one of my character went in the Mafia Don's house with a pen to assassinate him, but ended up getting shot in the head while banging the don's hot daughter.

Best PC death ever IMO.
Sleepyman
QUOTE (odinson @ Apr 20 2007, 05:23 AM)
So has anyone run a game where players did something to get on the bad side of the mafia? I was wondering exactly how horrible things got after. I've got some players that owe a favour to the mafia, and I can just picture the sammy doing something incredibly  stupid and really messing things up. Also if one person in a group was to make a powerful enemy like that do you think they would come after the entire group or just make an example of the one person.

I'm probably just being paranoid and nothing bad will happen, but it's always better to be prepared.

As I'm running the Denver story arc, I've been thinking on this same subject...

Without actually telling the player no, you calmly explain to the sammie player that the mafia would probably kill anyone that did this to them. If the player feels his character would do it anyway, that's cool. Finish the run, and during the wrap up, inform the player that he did a great job role playing and that his sammie received a buckwheat, make a new character for next session.

If you're feeling nice or you really don't want the guy to have to make a new character, you could let the player permanently burn an edge and lose some gear or nuyen to somehow avoid this fate.

I doubt I'd kill the whole group out of hand like that, but that depends on the situation. Perhaps the others could just be forced to pay a hefty bribe and suffer some serious faction loss.
Sleepyman
The Jopp
Point of advice: NEVER kill a character outright. If the player pissed someone off and you plan to have him/her/it assassinated then set up a situation and see if the character survives the attempt.

Hell, the player might actually pull it off and capture some mob enforcer alive and beat information out of him about who is after him.

Yes, the mob is powerful but they also have enemies so if the Sammie screw up he might always gain new friends among other criminal elements.

The mob is not to be trifled with, but neither are runners unless they are stupid. You cannot HIDE the mob, you can on the other hand hide a handful of runners and strike from cover. Mob is dangerous, yes but they are not god almighty and might not always send the bright lads to take care of a job, enforcers are more known for brute force than brains…
deek
Yeah, I agree, never just kill a player...set up the situation and let it play out. I did one of the "missions" runs and a couple players got some mob heat...he ended up getting "talked" to near his apartment one night...another he came home to find his place trashed...he's also had LoneStar detectives at his door...

But, that is all the nature of a runner...he gets a new SIN, relocates, lays low a bit, is a little more careful in job selection and takes a few more precautions for a while...

You take a look at all the players in my group, and every one of them have some enemies...and they pop up from time to time, but the group handles it as I would expect, and doesn't get too comfortable after any one job or any amount of nuyen and keeps moving around...
Sigil
QUOTE (The Jopp)
Point of advice: NEVER kill a character outright. If the player pissed someone off and you plan to have him/her/it assassinated then set up a situation and see if the character survives the attempt.

Agreed. -NEVER- do this. I know that anyone in my group who had the GM just say 'You're dead!' with no chance to resist would walk right out of the game. And be careful to make whatever is happening somewhat fair to the player. Even in SR, the mob doesn't usually have you shot in the head from a mile away, you're jumped. If your 'scene' is 'Roll Damage Resistance.' 'You're dead.' then that's just fiating the death and trying to hide it.
Sleepyman
QUOTE (Sigil)
QUOTE (The Jopp)
Point of advice: NEVER kill a character outright. If the player pissed someone off and you plan to have him/her/it assassinated then set up a situation and see if the character survives the attempt.

Agreed. -NEVER- do this. I know that anyone in my group who had the GM just say 'You're dead!' with no chance to resist would walk right out of the game. And be careful to make whatever is happening somewhat fair to the player. Even in SR, the mob doesn't usually have you shot in the head from a mile away, you're jumped. If your 'scene' is 'Roll Damage Resistance.' 'You're dead.' then that's just fiating the death and trying to hide it.

I agree that it's not a good idea in general, but "never" is incorrect for my group at least. You give the character a choice and make sure the player knows that there are serious ramifications.

I don't have time to set up a special run with that character at his flop. Also, SR has one of the greatest character generation systems ever so it's not that big of a penalty.
Sleepyman
fistandantilus4.0
I'm running a game right on on Welcome to the Shadows that's all mob and runner characters. It's had a high body count so far, mostly on the runner side. Peole getting capped to remove loose ends, that sort of thing. It's been a lot of fun, lots of good mob politics.
I also ran a demolition run where the team's job was to destroy a small neighborhood in Puyallup. They found out that a closed up bar on the edge of the territory had been converted in to a novacoke lab. They decided against raiding it first eventually, but did blow it up.

One of the PC decided to get blabby, actually bragging about the job they'd pulled, and even sold some intel about the group. naturalyl the mob was the ones asking the questions and buying the intel. So they lured them all to a meet site with the offer of another job. One PC runner that got really lippy got his knee caps shot out. The rest "owed" a "big one". Why kill when you can leverage? After all, if it weren't for the blabby runner, who the team ended up killing, they'd have gotten away with it clean.

Instead they ended up faking their deaths and making a deal with an arms dealer to move some of his hardware to Europe and relocated there.
odinson
I definitely wouldn't kill the pc outright. But Shadowrun is kinda deadly, and a couple of thugs with guns who ambush someone can kill them pretty quick. He could always roll amazing on his suprrise roll and then have a good chance.

How about drive by shootings? How people handle them. Same as regular suprise and the guy's in the car get the +6 dice for ambushing the players. Maybe give the players a perception test to notice the window rolling down as the car pulls up?
Crakkerjakk
Having been shot at during a drive-by, once, they're not very suprising. Usually the car is moving way too slow. Thats part of why I had time to hit the ground. Unless the characters are seriously engaged in something else, I'd give them a bonus to noticing the slowly moving car. Drive bys tend to hit innocents because they're not expecting it. People who have reason to fear for their lives pay too much attention to their environment for then to be really effective.
Dread Polack
My thoughts:

First off; the relationship between the mob and shadowrunners: The mob is an actual organized crime organization, while shadowrunners are unorganized criminals. The mob hires SRers, and goes against them from time to time. I think that the "professional respect" one SRer shows another SRer might not apply in these situations. If a SRer is targeted by another SRer for assassination by a corp, for instance, the target doesn't take it personally, even though he'll likely have to kill the assassin to avoid getting killed himself. I think mob guys will only extend this attitude to a limited extent. Making a hit against the mob while in the employ of a corp, for instance, will get you targeted. One mob boss hiring a SRer to whack another, see the above.

So anyway, lets assume that PCs made the fatal error of running against the mob. They didn't do their homework. Let's assume the GM hasn't kept them in the dark intentionally to screw them. The johnson was probably non-mob, and used the SRers so it couldn't be tracked back to him. The PCs now have a situation. Will the mob listen to reason? Will they accept recompense? Will they let it go as "just professional"? I think any of the above are possible, depending on the run itself. I think there's a lot of room for a GM to weave a neat plot arc without GM fiat- killing the party. If the PCs are up for the challenge, it could be a uphill battle to avoid first getting killed, then avoid being in lifelong debt, then avoid getting "drafted" into the mob, and finally severing any ties. The mob might be iron-clad in its enforcement, but it also is interested in furthering their goals, and the PCs might be able to appeal to that, or maybe even prove to be to big of a pain in the ass to go after.

Dread Polack
PBTHHHHT
Is there something we should know (or shouldn't know) about you, Crakkerjack? nyahnyah.gif
Crakkerjakk
Meh, I had a friend who lived in a rough neighborhood, and I hung out there a lot. He had some problems with some of the gang affilliated folks in the neighborhood, and I helped out, since he was a friend and the gang folks were (insert suitable insult.) They couldn't take a beating, so they decided to try to kill us at his house, and then they went to prison. It helps that his sister was married to a CHP(California Highway Patrol, for you non cali folks) officer.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (odinson)
How about drive by shootings? How people handle them. Same as regular suprise and the guy's in the car get the +6 dice for ambushing the players. Maybe give the players a perception test to notice the window rolling down as the car pulls up?

I did a drive by in my mob game. Well, not technically, because the car was sitting across the street from the bar the guy they were hitting went in to. I gave him a perception test first, then Reaction against suprise. He made the reaction so he got to dodge, but he didn't make initiative. They got off two combat rounds of firing at him.

The player posts on here as SinN. See the last part of his sig for the results.
bibliophile20
I actually had an idea for when the runners really torque off an organization (my original thought was the Azzies, but adapt as needed):

When the org in question locates the runners, a squad of some expendable types are sent on their mission, loaded for bear; as I thought of this as the Azzies, I was thinking Panther Assault Guns (only 35k nuyen.gif for a six man squad; quite reasonable for a mega or an OC org dealing with some irritants). If the squad wins, good; they return to base and get a nice pat on the head. Irritant removed. If the squad loses, the runners eye the 20F availability guns and start salivating. But, 20 minutes after a signal from the biomonitor that the owner's vitals have ceased...

...the five kilos of C12 in the frames of each gun goes off. Again, high likelihood of removed irritants.

So, overkill? Or something that an OC outfit or a mega might do to some *really* annoying runners? Even if they just packed a pistol's grip with explosive, that would still ruin a PC's day if they were carrying it on their person--if they were holding it, they would lose the hand and probably the arm, and if they had decided to put it in a coat pocket...
Ravor
I don't know, I seem to recall the megas actually launching a missile at an apartment building just to kill one Decker in the fluff story in Third Edition...
odinson
QUOTE (bibliophile20)
...the five kilos of C12 in the frames of each gun goes off. Again, high likelihood of removed irritants.

Even if they just packed a pistol's grip with explosive, that would still ruin a PC's day if they were carrying it on their person--if they were holding it, they would lose the hand and probably the arm, and if they had decided to put it in a coat pocket...

I love that idea. But instead of a timer maybe have the explosives set to explode when the gun is fired. If the guns got more bells and whistles than what the pc currently has he might take the bait. Probably give some sort of perception test or maybe an armorer test to notice that something isn't right with the gun. This could be fun.

Therumancer
It's my opinion that The Mafia, and other "organized crime" is a touchy subject in Shadowrun which is why the various "Underworld" sourcebooks didn't take off more.

The world of Shadowrun has changed so much that while there is no doubt that things like "The Mafia" and "Yakuza" are going to exist, but they are going to be a mere shadow of what they were before "The Awakening" and probably not really capable of dealing with Shadowrunners, professional mercenaries, and other kinds of people who don't operate the same way (or in the same numbers) as in real life. Indeed it can be argued that the kinds of mercnaries represented by Shadowrunners (and the level of competance posssessed by RPG "heroes") do not exist and are a non-factor to real life.

Take a look at a Mob Drama like "The Sopranos", or any other source that is touted for realism. Certain kinds of fantasy aside, organized crime syndicates really aren't that big. A powerful mafia that runs a lucrative area like New Jersey might only measure 100 active members or less. To use "The Sopranos" as an example you've got the "Don" (Tony, or Junior depending on the point), then a handfull of "Captains", and then beneath them a few "Soldiers" who have a crew made up of a few people.

This kind of crime operates through intimidation, controlling labour unions and shipping contracts (and being able to skim things out of cargos to sell second hand through the black market or "Flear Markets" like the ones you see outside of many Sports Stadiums on the weekends), phone card scams, and similar things. What guyts like "Al Capone" did represent a rare exception and are famous because of that exception, they also pulled this off BEFORE things like the FBI got fully established. It was basically took an army to bust Capone as he 'conquered' Chicago (ie "The Night Chicago Died").

It's also notable that most mafia-type groups operate their most "hands on" businesses (intimidation) in Ethnic areas where the subculture is differant.


The thing is that the nature of Shadow Run has basically changed the entire playing field. There are huge gangs being armed by corperate nations and pitted against each other as part of an ongoing game to make the dominant Corp holding a city's police contract look incompetant and take it. What's more the "safe" areas are usually part of corperate nations, where the existing rights of due process and such don't exist. Renraku isn't likely to worry about niceties like "evidence" or "search and seizure" laws if someone is shaking down merchants in one of their commercial districts. They are just going to have the Red Samurai kill the equivilent of Mr. Soprano and call it a day.

Corperate wage slavery and such also means that Unions, Teamsters, etc... are all gone. Along with them most of the long-range power of the mafia and the veil of legitimacy which allowed some of them to operate.

As a result your likely to find The Mafia as being very limited, and mostly holding power in the relatively rare areas where national goverment (and things like The Constitution and the mess of modern legal precedent) still hold sway. If a city has a "Little Italy" section and that section is not owned by one AA or AAA corp, then there is a chance The Mafia would be a (very) local power in that region. They would basically be walking a fine line between criminal behavior, and pushing too far because they need the cops to keep the gangs and such from taking over the area (since Gangs in SR can literally field huge armies).

The Mafia's idea of crime is mostly about business and racketeering.

I understand this contridicts some of the visions people have had, but I'm thinking about this realistically.

At any rate, if a Shadowrunner slots off say "The Don Of New Jersey" who is going to be a shadow of someone like Tony Soprano given the enviromental changes in Shadow Run, it's an inconveinence, but not that big a deal. If the guy walks into the local area where the Mafia actually holds reign, he might have trouble with muscle and thugs. The Don might be able to hire a hitman (under the table) to go after the guy, but is more likely to put a general contract out on him. Basically a "have it be none that The Don will pay 50k Nuyen to anyone who can kill this fragger". For some Shadowrunners this might be a point of honor, and a good thing for their rep (believe it or not). Fame/Infamy can be a double edged sword. This however does mean that Runs might get messed up when some contact with the local gangs/low rent mercenaries/etc... spots the character, and "amateur bounty hunter hour" frags up a run, a meet with a contact, or otherwise causes problems.

The Mafia is in a position where they need to hide their money and carefully watch their finances for one. Especially seeing as many of the guys involved (especially at the top) are living a high lifestyle and don't want the goverment to figure out where this income is coming from. They are under the kind of scrutiny that doesn't apply to a corperate nation. Firing a satellite guided cruise missle at a decker or something is well beyond the means of The Mafia (it would take a much bigger dog to do this).

For the most part I see The Mafia as being a good "local contact" for specific areas, a way of procuring vice (if say the Runners want a hooker to meet with someone in a hotel so they can take pictures as part of a mission), or an inconveinence.

One also has to remember that Shadowrunners are Sinless for the most part which means that there are no records as to where they are, or what they are doing. They can be hard to find, which is why people deal with them through "Fixers" and a network of contacts. While some beings (like Dragons) might keep their own "Shadowfiles" of a sort on various Runners they have run into, such resources are out of the reach of The Mob. The most "The Don" is going to be able to do in many cases is (if he's seen the guy) give a physical description to his people, and otherwise say "I want a guy going by this Street Name, dead".

The Anonimity of Shadowrunners is part of their strength and why they are supposed to be able to mess with The Mafia, Corps, etc... off the books and avoid retalation enough to make money. In a way it's really an uphill battle for a Don here as part of the point of being a Shadowrunner is being able to cross people exactly like that (and bigger within the Awakened World), oftentimes at someone elses request (but you can do it for yourself), and get away with it.

You can take "Mafia" and replace it with terms like "Yakuza", or "Triad" and locations like "Little Tokyo" and "Little Hong Kong". There are enough movies and exposes on the Asian versions that are fairly "authentic" out there that show that it's pretty much the same thing as The Mafia but with differant trappings.

This is just my opinion, and I don't know all the details. If I was GMing this, I'd just say there is a contract out and give a small chance that the character's business is occasionally interrupted by people trying to fulfill the contract (local thugs, etc...). To deal with this the PC might very well need to put together his own minor Shadow Team to take the guy out (assault on Soprano mansion or whatever). It's unlikely the guy has many body guards and such cybered up or as skilled as Shadowrunners (which is part of why people hire Shadowrunners) but is still going to take some time to get to.

The rest of the PCs might back him, but unless the relationship is odd within the party, the PC in question is probably going to need to at least kick them money for expenses/repairs/medical, which means it will cost him something to deal with.

>>>----Therumancer--->




































Whipstitch
Well, you have to remember that the Orgs can get in bed with the Corps just as easily as the gangers can too though. The settings books have always indicated that the Yakuza in particular pull plenty of strings in the Corp world. Who runs who is a matter of debate in some cases.
fistandantilus4.0
Using an example like the "mafia", there are a number of points to contest. The first is that the mob can still do a lot and pull a lot of power. They main seeling point is that they'r e"organized" crime. They have a relatively large amount of willing putting their heads together in criminal enterprises. This includees your basics, like smuggling or stealing items to sell to the SINless or the thriving shadow community or example. There's also the vice trade, which by all accounts, is thriving in SR. The corp wage slave has to get his escapism-BTL from somewhere. Then there's the prostitues of course. There's protection rackets, muscling the smaller businesses, where they can get a good amount of funding.

Then there's the classic lone shark enterprise, or even forceably buying in to a corp, big or small. They have a lot of ways to make money.

Let's not forget that with so many ways for a person's life to be tossed a side, there's a lot of people willing to do anything. They start in the gangs. The gangs are competition for the mob, they're a recruiting ground. You think you see a lot of thirty year old gang bagers? The ones that are really worth something get recruited by the "'organized" crime groups to make the "real money", and then perpetuate the image. If you think the "mafia" is glamourized now, think what it would be liek in a world where they make movies about shadowrunners, people who get paid for shooting people in the face.

Let's not be thinking that I think the mob is some untouchable entity. A dedicated group of runners could certainly assasinate most Don's. It happens. one person is not that hard to kill. It's just hard to get away with it, which is what dissuades most folks from trying.
kzt
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Let's not be thinking that I think the mob is some untouchable entity. A dedicated group of runners could certainly assasinate most Don's. It happens. one person is not that hard to kill. It's just hard to get away with it, which is what dissuades most folks from trying.

Assuming you can find the Don. A fair number of the senior Mafia guys now don't have a record and are know to the cops and the public only because of FBI wiretaps and informers. Given how easy it for runners to do the "get a new SIN" crap, how hard is it for someone who makes their living selling new SINs?

Organized crime uses people to do stuff, they don't hand out a clue book to their tools.

And with magic, initiatory vows could become much more binding. If you really do catch fire if you fink out the Don, not many people will decide to talk to the cops.
fistandantilus4.0
The Triads do that, according to the SBs. The "mafia" doesn't, again, according to the SBs, considering it an insult to thier honor. Of course, they didn't use to have female Dons eaither.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Apr 21 2007, 11:57 PM)
The Triads do that, according to the SBs.

Yep. When dealing with Awakened Incense Masters, suddenly the old traditional Triad "I shall never betray my sworn brothers. If I break this oath, I shall suffer death by 5 thunderbolts" ritual becomes very, very literal.
kzt
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
Yep. When dealing with Awakened Incense Masters, suddenly the old traditional Triad "I shall never betray my sworn brothers. If I break this oath, I shall suffer death by 5 thunderbolts" ritual becomes very, very literal.

Or "As burns this saint so will burn my soul. I enter alive into this organization and leave it dead."
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