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Shev
So, what do you usually pay your runner teams, and for what kinds of jobs?

To start out with, I was thinking runs in the range on 5-15K would be enough to start with. Not much more than rent money, especially divided up. But it'd be enough to build a rep for larger fees. How do you guys do?
Demerzel
This is one of those topics that repear pretty regularly.

My advice is that you select something appropriate for the level of game you run. It should allow your players to advance their cyber/equipment in addition to pay their lifestyle.

My most stringent advice however is to not accept the stealing cars argument as proposed in threads like this:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=14429&hl=

6thDragon
Yes, this is one of the more common topics posted by new players/posters/GMs. I personally allow them to make ends meet until then earn a little rep, then allow them to bring in enough cash to advance their gear. I figure the market is flooded with wanabes so they have to distinguish themselves from the herd first.
Lagomorph
IIRC, The On The Run module which is designed for brand spankin new characters pays between 10k and 20k. Most teams are going to get 15K+ going through that one adventure. It's actually difficult to only get 10K from the adventure. I don't have my notes or the module here at work so I don't know what I actually paid them. But I recall it being about 15K.

I think the example of car theft makes a point, even if there are a lot of (potentially bad) assumptions in the math. The point being that higher risk crimes should pay more than lower risk crimes, and shadowrunners do the highest risk crimes around.
Demon_Bob
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
IIRC, The On The Run module which is designed for brand spankin new characters pays between 10k and 20k. Most teams are going to get 15K+ going through that one adventure. It's actually difficult to only get 10K from the adventure. I don't have my notes or the module here at work so I don't know what I actually paid them. But I recall it being about 15K.

I think the example of car theft makes a point, even if there are a lot of (potentially bad) assumptions in the math. The point being that higher risk crimes should pay more than lower risk crimes, and shadowrunners do the highest risk crimes around.

Our team got much more on that run, about 100K nuyen.gif . However, we kinda pissed of our Johnson.
Truth is the team got the impression that all of Risa's group were like her, due to none of them having a heat sig., and the 3 we were supposed to meet coalescing out of mist form next to the grave. So the team decided that 100K and alive was better than being dinner.
Glyph
I don't think there is one right answer, because campaigns vary wildly in how powerful the PCs are, and what kind of bargaining position they have. Some things to keep in mind, though:

You want the PCs to be able to advance. They need enough to cover their lifestyles, as well as enough to get better 'ware and gear eventually. A group of PCs living low lifestyles might start out doing jobs for a few thousand before moving up the food chain, while a more successful starting PC with a high lifestyle will turn down such jobs, which won't even pay his rent.

Keep in mind that you need to balance money and Karma so that sammies don't get quickly passed by the awakened, or vice versa.

Keep in mind that the PCs are doing extremely dangerous work, and should be compensated accordingly, unless there is a compelling reason for shadowrunners to be relatively powerless to affect their circumstances in your campaign. For example, they could be Barrens rats with little in the way of connections or leverage despite their fearsome combat abilities. Or runners could be dime-a-dozen thugs in your world, only able to command decent pay after a long process of proving themselves.
Thane36425
It would also depend on how many runs the characters pull per month. Somewhere in canon it talked about most teams making no more than 3 or 4 runs per month. Depending on how complex or time consuming the runs are, it might only be 1 or two, so pay would have to be adjusted accordingly.

Also, the characters might also get some side runs. That is, they might get called in to handle a secondary part of another team's run. They might do overwatch, security or set up a blocking position. Lots of things they could do that shouldn't take too much planning, especially if the other team has already done it and knows what they are doing. A big "if" there, but that all depends on how much you trust your fixer and how much you need the money.

Don't forget that characters can take things. Most of the stuff they encounter isn't worth the effort, but if they kill a mage with a power focus, they've hit paydirt.
FriendoftheDork
I think the price varies alot. For instance, a small easy job shouldn't pay more than 5-10k nuyen total, while on a big mission you might get 10k each or more.

A 5k nuyen job should be completable in a few hours, involve little security, and basically be a cookie run for most shadowrunners. experienced shadowrunners would probably not even bother wasting their valuable time. I'm going to use a couple of those on my fresh team when they get out of the Barrens.

10k-50k should be appropriate for longer runs (like On the Run) which involves not only a job but also complications and possibly more than one objective (haven't read it yet).

100k+ should only be awarded for extremely dangerous missions, like going into the Arcology to kill Deus, infiltrate a camp known for missing persons (without all the gear you normally have!), or tackle on a insect spirit queen and her minions. Missions such as these should have a high probability of outright killing 1 or two runners. A few of these could be enough to retire a character, at least when you reach 1,000,000 nuyen.gif or more.
Lantzer
QUOTE (Thane36425)
Don't forget that characters can take things. Most of the stuff they encounter isn't worth the effort, but if they kill a mage with a power focus, they've hit paydirt.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that.

If they have a mage, That focus isn't going to turn into cash. It'll just ramp up the mage's power. Magical loot that isn't too hot to keep tends to stay in-house.

Same as if the Sammie picked up a PAC on a run. The difference is, a focus is more useful than a PAC.
Thanee
Runners typically are not street thugs. They are highly specialised criminals, even right out of the box. This kind of expertise costs. And it should earn a bit more than a couple hundred to risk your life, too.

If it's lower risk and better gain to just go steal cars, then you pay them not enough. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Luddite
I usually "cheat" a bit, in that I take into account how much work they're going to be able to do in a given month and make sure they'll have enough cash to continue their lifestyles, maintain their contacts, and save up a bit. If that means they get more money for a fairly straightforward courier run than really makes sense, so be it. Of course, when the GM is offering you nuyen.gif 10K to take a package across town smart players get nervous.
TheOneRonin
I'm not sure how many of you do this in your games, but in mine, Runs usually COST a certain amount of nuyen to get done (bribes, info purchasing, specialized equipment, etc.). The teams I GM for usually have to strike a balance between how much they are going to invest into the run vs. how much they will get out of it. If your payoff is $20k, the initial investment needs to be small to keep the profit margin reasonable. However, if the payoff is in the neighborhood of $150k, then investing $15k-$20k in resources to make the job easier is well worth it.

As a side note, in my games the Johnsons don't ever cover "expenses". They will negotiate, but for a flat fee. It's up to the players how deep they want to cut into the profit margin.

I've even had instances of them hiring out other teams for particular tasks when the pay is high enough. Incidentally, this sort of thing segues nicely into experienced runners becoming fixers.
Cheops
Something to think about for stealing cars however. The syndicates and gangs are going to have their hooks into something like that so someone will be POed that you are stepping "on their turf." Suddenly, those 5 cars a month aren't risk free anymore. I would not want to have to deal with an angry go-gang that has Vory backing (the newest players in the Tacoma docks).

Since most of this should be controlled by one syndicate or another this also means the group loses its independent status. They'll have to work with SOMEONE if they're going to be jacking that many cars. Either the syndicates down on the docks or else some junkyard (which will also likely be allied with one or another gang/syndicate).

This is true in RL. It should be more than true in SR 2070.

As far as how much they should make I usually index it to their Street Rep. The more they have the more they get paid with stuff like Notoriety and Public Awareness modifying the types of runs they get. Remember that in Seattle you have ShadowSea so that everyone in the biz can see what everyone else thinks of the group. If they've got a string of successful jobs with excellent recommendations from fixers, J's, and other teams then they can expect to be paid more. If they've got lots of negative feedback they can expect nothing.
Thane36425
QUOTE (Lantzer @ Apr 26 2007, 07:39 AM)
QUOTE (Thane36425 @ Apr 26 2007, 07:07 AM)
Don't forget that characters can take things. Most of the stuff they encounter isn't worth the effort, but if they kill a mage with a power focus, they've hit paydirt.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that.

If they have a mage, That focus isn't going to turn into cash. It'll just ramp up the mage's power. Magical loot that isn't too hot to keep tends to stay in-house.

Same as if the Sammie picked up a PAC on a run. The difference is, a focus is more useful than a PAC.

That all depends on if the mage is willing to spend the karma to bond with it, and that can be very expensive, and if they have somethings else. If the mage already has a focus or an ally spirit, then they might not need the captured one. My barious mages have acquired force 5 or 6 power foci from enemy from time to time and usually sold them, viewing that several hundred K nuyen as more valuable than spending 30 or more karma down the road, karma that could be spent on other things, like spells or boosting the ally spirit.
TypeRyder
I agree to TheOneRonin: Runs are expensive and the GM should reflect this.

The runners have to bribe people, buy special SINs for the run, licences, safehouses, special equipment...and usually if you are a professional you dump some of the equipment you used during the run to eliminate traces. The pay should be sufficient to support this level of professionalism and still enables the characters to support a decent lifestyle and some advances in gear. I dislike the typical "You need Money, therefore you have to take the run"-attitudes.

I usually pay regarding to karma:
0 - 50 Karma: 5k - 10k per person
51 - 100 Karma: 10k - 20k per person
101 - 250 Karma: 20k - 40k per person
and so on, sometimes with extra money for expenses, sometimes not.

This is payment for normal runs, normal targets. Very long runs, runs abroad or very dangerous runs double or triple the cost per runner - high-class runs could easily pay 100k and more per person, but usually comes with high expenses and higher risk.
TheOneRonin
Don't forget run frequency. Just because you and buddies game twice a month doesn't mean the runners actually pull off two jobs a month. With my last team (VERY experienced), they usually pulled off VERY big jobs...jobs that often took several weeks of game time to plan and execute. As most, they would do one of these jobs per quarter (~4/year).

In my games, runs are dangerous, risky, tough to pull off properly, and borderline suicidal. Runners don't do MANY runs, or many runs per month because the odds will catch up to them that much more quickly.

Another thing that helps is discussing with your players what they expect in terms of pay. I learned some interesting things about my group when I had that discussion. I was offering them some smaller runs with smaller payoffs, and they kept turning them down. So I accelerated the timeline by several months, and started off with "So you haven't worked at all in the last 6 months..." Instantly I was bombarded by "Wait a minute! We wouldn't go that long without working!!!" To which I replied "You guys consistently turned down jobs that payed less than X. If you won't do any work for less than X, you will have to wait a while for your next job." That, of course, bled them heavily with cost of living expenses.

So my players decided to put on paper their approach to jobs. When they are busy, they don't work for less than X. 3 months without work, and they drop down to jobs that pay Y. 2 more months without work, and they are taking Z jobs. Any more unemployment, and they start jacking cars. cool.gif
Crakkerjakk
Way I look at it, I equate nuyen to dollars. Now, most of the time when I see someone get arrested for trying to hire a hitman, they're paying some ex-con with no special training and a revolver about 5-15k to whack someone who has no armed guards or special training. Now, extrapolate out a group of fairly well trained, heavily armed folks going after targets that have significant security, and I bump it up quite a bit. Usually my runs starts at a minimum of 20k for a group. However, I also assume that runners do no more than two runs a month.

That seems to be a bit above average, but then, I don't beleive in milk-runs. So there's my .02 american dollars.
Thane36425
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)
Way I look at it, I equate nuyen to dollars. Now, most of the time when I see someone get arrested for trying to hire a hitman, they're paying some ex-con with no special training and a revolver about 5-15k to whack someone who has no armed guards or special training. Now, extrapolate out a group of fairly well trained, heavily armed folks going after targets that have significant security, and I bump it up quite a bit. Usually my runs starts at a minimum of 20k for a group. However, I also assume that runners do no more than two runs a month.

That seems to be a bit above average, but then, I don't beleive in milk-runs. So there's my .02 american dollars.

The old Hitman book, the one that got Paladin Press in so much trouble, said that a real pro, the kind who knew what they were doing and wouldn't leave much evidence, etc., would cost at least $50,000. Now, just how real that is is anyone's guess.
TheOneRonin
That's a pretty accurate approximation, Crakkerjakk, seeing as how many of the items and services listed in the core book are a bout the same cost in nuyen as they are in USD today.

Hiring gang punks to disrupt the construction site where your competitor is building a new HQ is probably cheap. Hiring professional criminals to pull high-profile jobs is VERY expensive. I know SR is dystopian, and the game designers want the players to feel like no matter how many jobs they pull off, at the end of they day they still find themselves eating warm soy out of a can on a dilapidated bed in their low-rent doss. That works fine for a petty criminal archetype, with no cyber, no magic, no training, and no contacts. But just doesn't work for real Shadowrunners. I don't think they are all millionaires, but they will live better than gutter scum. Hell, organized crime figures live better than that. And I see runners as a step above organized crime in terms of skills and ability.

If you can get over your "Tom Cruise hatred", try watching the movie "Collateral". That's a great example of a single professional Shadowrunner hired to do wetwork. And if I remember, his pay was pretty stinking high. Somewhere around 7 figures...
Thanee
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
As a side note, in my games the Johnsons don't ever cover "expenses". They will negotiate, but for a flat fee. It's up to the players how deep they want to cut into the profit margin.

Yep, that also makes the most sense to me.

Also money is upfront, unless there is something of value to be delivered.

Bye
Thanee
Grinder
Most Johnsons prefer to give only half money upfront in my campaigns.
deek
QUOTE (Grinder)
Most Johnsons prefer to give only half money upfront in my campaigns.

Most of mine prefer not to pay any money:)
TheOneRonin
Of course, a Johnson would love to reap the accomplishments of a run against his/her competitors without spending a dime. And I would love to get paid massive dividends from my portfolio without having to buy a single share of stock. But the world doesn't work that way.

The way I see it, a runner team is an investment. Not just for the job at hand, but possibly for future jobs, and for the Johnson's rep. Screw over a team so you don't have to pay them, and you can forget about getting any more people from that team's fixer. On top of that, you'll be lucky if the whole shadow-community in your AO doesn't blacklist you.

However, there are all sorts of "Johnsons" that don't fit that rule. The one-shot Johnsons, the Organized Crime Johnsons hiring you for a single hit, the corp wageslave that doesn't hire shadowrunners for a living and only plans on getting his hands dirty one time. These are the types of employers that Runners should avoid like the plague.

But yes, in most cases, it is in the Johnson's best interest to pay his runner team or make good on whatever deal he brokered.
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
I'm not sure how many of you do this in your games, but in mine, Runs usually COST a certain amount of nuyen to get done (bribes, info purchasing, specialized equipment, etc.).  The teams I GM for usually have to strike a balance between how much they are going to invest into the run vs. how much they will get out of it. 


Sing it, brother! I remember one run part of Harlequin, that was a snatch in the CAS. We were in Seattle so we'd need to cross national borders as part of a kidnapping. The pay was originally not much beyond 1st class round trip airfare. We declined, irritating the GM. We spent some time explaining ourselves (cost of SINs, need to buy weapons onsite, the international kidnapping charges, etc). We did the run but only after a massive cash infusion.

there are some runs that afterwards you want to slag all your gear and do a ritual cleansing to get the taint off of you. I remember we got a machine shop just to be able to thoroughly dismantle "hot" guns. Forensics doesn't survive being ground to filings and being smelted into something else. Magic, maybe, but that's why the shop had a massive ward.

Grinder
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
Of course, a Johnson would love to reap the accomplishments of a run against his/her competitors without spending a dime. And I would love to get paid massive dividends from my portfolio without having to buy a single share of stock. But the world doesn't work that way.

That's not what I wanted to say. A good Johnson will pay a team upfront, but not the whole money. The rest is used as motivation for the team to finish the run and don't go into hiding with all the money.
The matter of trust between a J and a runner team plays an important role, as does the question if the J wants to hire the team again and what reputation both parties have ect.
It's not just black and white, not "full money or no money upfront" - like most of the time in the 6th world it's a diffuse grey.
IvanTank
On one of the shadowrun Missions adventures, the team botched the run, so got no pay, and were kind enough to return the advance pay. However, they stil hit serious paydirt, since they stole the Ares Dragon(500,000 nuyen.gif) that the other runner team used to go after their team.
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