So RAW say if you use a "smart gun" in either hand laser sights and smartgun links aren't effective.
What do ya'll think about allowing the use of smartguns and links if both guns are smartguns and you have 2 smartlinks? I could see a requirement that both guns have to be fired at the same target (unless you have independantly focusable eyes)...
Full Version: (lesser) Gun-fu a la John Woo
this question came up a lot in SR3. the answer was always the same: YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT NO YOU SHOULDN'T IT'S REALISTIC YOU'RE STUPID I'LL KILL YOUR BEAR WHAT ABOUT ALLY SPIRITS THE AMMO WEIGHTS ARE WRONG SOMEONE GET RAYGUN IN HERE I TRIED SHOOTING WITH TWO GUNS IN VIRTUA COP AND IT WORKS GREAT OH GOD LET IT END
mfb, there are some big guys in white clothes here to see you...
Yes indeed. mfb is correct about this type of discussion. It always ends poorly.
I have been in games where it's been allowed with double smartlinks. I've been in games where arguements have cropped up because the GM won't allow it, and I have been in games where it just never came up. The most enjoyable of those was the last.
In SR3, it just seemed too overpowered for the cost.
In SR4, it might not be so bad because dual-weilding is so ridiculously stupid now that you have to split your dicepool between the two guns, but I still wouldn't allow it.
I have been in games where it's been allowed with double smartlinks. I've been in games where arguements have cropped up because the GM won't allow it, and I have been in games where it just never came up. The most enjoyable of those was the last.
In SR3, it just seemed too overpowered for the cost.
In SR4, it might not be so bad because dual-weilding is so ridiculously stupid now that you have to split your dicepool between the two guns, but I still wouldn't allow it.
I wouldn't allow double smartlinks unless you paid for massive surgery to split your brain in two. It would get waaay confusing.
Double laser sights, however, i'd allow. I don't see too much of a problem with them.
Double laser sights, however, i'd allow. I don't see too much of a problem with them.
I don't see much difference in targeting with two lasers or two HUD reticles.
With the rise of augmented reality, I see no reason to not allow multiple smartguns. Heck, each gun could be 'painting' the entirety of it's target on your AR. One green target, one purple target (or whatver colors you like) and you can bangity-bang away freely.
I tend to allow it, mostly due to the other really advanced tech you're allowed to have. It strikes me as kinda ass-backwards that someone can have a select sound filter 6 and listen to six different conversations at once (in SR4) or hear specifically what you're listening for at +6 dice (SR3) yet you can't effectively use two hud reticles.
Generally in SR3, I made people pay for 2 induction links, an image link, one smartlink processor, and dedicated routing between all of the parts. In SR4, I just make people pay for 2 smartlinks.
Generally in SR3, I made people pay for 2 induction links, an image link, one smartlink processor, and dedicated routing between all of the parts. In SR4, I just make people pay for 2 smartlinks.
Oops, I didn't mean to touch the third rail here.. tfta chummers...
I like the compromise in SR4, without the smartlink bonus...if you're wading through a bunch of redshirts, half your dice on each gun would be fine. If you're fighting somebody at all competant, there's no way you'd dual-wield--just like real life.
The John Woo thing is fairly do-able for an adept with improved ability: pistols. If you blow 2 or 2.5 power points on pistols, you can throw 9-10 dice for each gun (assuming agility 5 pistols 5). A sammie with 5/5 and a smartlink throws 12 dice on one, so it's in the ballpark. That's fine in my book, cause the adept is blowing 2 or 2.5 power points (not cheap).
The John Woo thing is fairly do-able for an adept with improved ability: pistols. If you blow 2 or 2.5 power points on pistols, you can throw 9-10 dice for each gun (assuming agility 5 pistols 5). A sammie with 5/5 and a smartlink throws 12 dice on one, so it's in the ballpark. That's fine in my book, cause the adept is blowing 2 or 2.5 power points (not cheap).
I think that if you want to do two-wepon gunslinging the best way would be to use a pair of automatic weapons and have a gyromount in each cyberarm. That way, the burst bonuses would help make up for the dice pool splitting.
I would just require the PC to get skillwires of at least rating 2. They'd be use in conjunction with the smartlinks to keep both guns pointed at the same target.
Alternately, could'nt the smartlink bonus be split between the two weapons?
Alternately, could'nt the smartlink bonus be split between the two weapons?
in sr3 you only required a second smartlink processor subsystem.
| QUOTE |
| Alternately, could'nt the smartlink bonus be split between the two weapons? |
This is the option I personally favor. Being able to track and aim with two sets of crosshairs simultaneously would be so straining as to remove any advantage. However... firing with ONE crosshair, and just blasting away with the other pistol in the same general direction, would seem acceptable to me. So I'd apply the smartlink bonus to the dice pool, and let it be split as normal.
Keep in mind another possibility: Using automatic weapons in each hand. Two machine pistols or SMG's loaded up with tracer rounds can get you a LOT more dice than smartlinks (long burst + laser sight is +3 dice per gun, and it's possible to avoid recoil too! Second shot is at +2 for the short burst + laser sight). Sure, you don't get to chant "one shot, one kill" -- but chummer, what matters is if you come home on your feet, not how many bullets it takes to do it.
| QUOTE (Syd) |
| The John Woo thing is fairly do-able for an adept with improved ability: pistols. If you blow 2 or 2.5 power points on pistols, you can throw 9-10 dice for each gun (assuming agility 5 pistols 5). A sammie with 5/5 and a smartlink throws 12 dice on one, so it's in the ballpark. That's fine in my book, cause the adept is blowing 2 or 2.5 power points (not cheap). |
Actually, spending more than 1.5 power points on guns is stupid, since you never ever get more than 3 dice from "improved" ability since it counts towards the augumented skill cap at 1.5 times your _Current_ skill.. hance you need 6 in pistols to get the full number of dice, else your wasting pp..
The "2 smartlinks don't work, 2 laser sights do" rule never made sense to me - so, I can handle two red dots on the target if they come from laser pointers, but not if they are just overlaid on my view by a computer? Even if both react the same to me moving my pistols?
since when do two laser sights work? in SR3, at least, the only targeting bonus you could get while wielding two weapons is tracer rounds (and i have a feeling that's only because the authors forgot about them, the way most players and GMs do). when wielding two guns, neither lasers nor links grant bonii.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| since when do two laser sights work? |
They officially don't in SR4, per p141. Tracers do.
Personally I think it'd be easier to hit things using a constant laser point or HUD reticle than fleeting tracer trails, but okay.
maybe tracers are more streamlined?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| maybe tracers are more streamlined? |
*smack*P.S. You have to be creating a hose of tracers for them to give their benefits.
yeah, you have to be firing a burst. in SR3, at any rate.
| QUOTE (Nkari) |
| Actually, spending more than 1.5 power points on guns is stupid, since you never ever get more than 3 dice from "improved" ability since it counts towards the augumented skill cap at 1.5 times your _Current_ skill.. hance you need 6 in pistols to get the full number of dice, else your wasting pp.. |
The adept power specifically says it's not an enhancement to the skill. It's a modifier to rolls with that skill, capped at your skill level.
| QUOTE (SR4 pg187) |
| Improved Ability Cost: .5 per level (Combat skills), .25 per level (Physical, Social, Technical skills) This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific Active skill. Dice purchased for the Active skill carry over equally to any specializations of the skill you know. You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating. Improved Ability does not actually improve a skill’s rating, it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill. Improved Ability must be purchased for a specific skill, not a skill group. This power costs .5 per level for all Combat skills and only .25 per level for Physical, Social, and Technical skills. |
so that means you can get pistols 7, 3.5 magic worth of more dice, a reflex recorder, and some muscle toner, a level of synaptic accelerator, and have 1.5 magic left for other things.
assuming an elf, agility 7(9), pistols 7+2spcl+1RR+7magic+2SL= 28 dice?
true you have to cripple him at other things to do it, but it looks like it can work.
if that works, then adepts can be even more insanely dangerous. definietly an edge over the sam who caps at 22 dice.
assuming an elf, agility 7(9), pistols 7+2spcl+1RR+7magic+2SL= 28 dice?
true you have to cripple him at other things to do it, but it looks like it can work.
if that works, then adepts can be even more insanely dangerous. definietly an edge over the sam who caps at 22 dice.
Elf with Agility:8. Don't forget Exceptional Attribute.
You can just fit Exceptional Attribute, Aptitude, and Adept in at 35 points of Positive Qualities out of chargen.
You can just fit Exceptional Attribute, Aptitude, and Adept in at 35 points of Positive Qualities out of chargen.
True. If you were building an adept that was hellbent on being really good at one thing (pistols, SMG, stealth, cha skills), there's little to stop you. It'd be the only thing you could do though.
| QUOTE (Syd @ Nov 30 2005, 03:29 PM) |
| The adept power specifically says it's not an enhancement to the skill. It's a modifier to rolls with that skill, capped at your skill level. |
I don't have the thread link handy, but this has been discussed heavily. Sloppy terminology in conjunction with that cap in the power description being copy-pasted from SR3 text is creating the confusion. The Skill matching cap is redundant in all but very obscure cases. So Improved Ability above 3 is pretty much always a total waste.
Is it going to be errata'd then? The reference on pg 63 "Adept powers, implants or magic may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating. The maximum modified rating allowed is 1.5 times the natural rating (making 9 the maximum achievable, or 10 with the Aptitude quality)."
Does this mean there is a absolute global cap? Put it another way: does stuff like situational modifiers, smartlinks, or recoil comp count against the maximum? The max you can ever roll is Attr(augmented) + Skill*1.5, period amen?
EDIT: In that case, the highest anyone will ever roll for pistols is 22 (8*1.5 + 7*1.5), be it through adept powers, magic or 'ware.
Does this mean there is a absolute global cap? Put it another way: does stuff like situational modifiers, smartlinks, or recoil comp count against the maximum? The max you can ever roll is Attr(augmented) + Skill*1.5, period amen?
EDIT: In that case, the highest anyone will ever roll for pistols is 22 (8*1.5 + 7*1.5), be it through adept powers, magic or 'ware.
Is it just me or does that make Adepts substantially worse than Street Sams.
3 dice just isn't much. That's one extra hit.
I may be holding over too much from before, as I have heard Adepts are more viable now, but really, only 3 dice is kind of harsh.
3 dice just isn't much. That's one extra hit.
I may be holding over too much from before, as I have heard Adepts are more viable now, but really, only 3 dice is kind of harsh.
@ Syd, it isn't so much that it needs errataed, but explained. The text isn't incorrect, it just is easy to misunderstand. 
As for that limit, Laser Sights, SL, etc. apparently do NOT fall under the Skill cap. It appears that as of the BBB the only thing so far that does is the Adept power. *shrug*
As for that limit, Laser Sights, SL, etc. apparently do NOT fall under the Skill cap. It appears that as of the BBB the only thing so far that does is the Adept power. *shrug*
MFB's reply made my day.
I'm not upset one way or the other. I just want to know how it's supposed to work 
| QUOTE (Syd) |
| I'm not upset one way or the other. I just want to know how it's supposed to work |
Well that seems to be it.
There are some threads here somewhere about it, from maybe a month back.
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| Is it just me or does that make Adepts substantially worse than Street Sams. |
That's just you. An adept can take advantage of everything a street sam can. She can wear smart goggles, or even get cybereyes. An adept, however, can get Improved Ability at +3, while a street sam is capped at getting 1 die from the Reflex Recorder.
So really everything is the same, except that a properly made street samurai can pass through astral inspection without revealing her talents, and an adept can have 2 more dice on any important task.
I like the stealthy option that street samurai have, but the adept objectively has the ability to roll more dice, and is thus "better" in terms of how good they are at benchmark tasks.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Syd @ Nov 30 2005, 07:43 PM) |
| True. If you were building an adept that was hellbent on being really good at one thing (pistols, SMG, stealth, cha skills), there's little to stop you. It'd be the only thing you could do though. |
Well, they're called "adepts," after all. That implies that they ought to be good at something.
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