Okay I disagree with it being that alien. If that were true then we should be running around shooting ray guns and having pon far. The point of the setting is that it ISN"T an alien setting. That is what makes it so interesting. There are a much of magic and tech on other planets games that went nowhere. I think that some were even minitures games. Shadowrun IS based on the real world with fantasy elements added.

I have no problem with having objective analysis impact the traditions. It would allows traditions that don't believe in magic to have a magical tradition. But the point I was making was that the game does not say that they are all the same. It says that they are all the same in this edition. THAT was my issue. It isn't a factor of the setting. It is a factor of the rules becoming simplified in the wrong way.

The other problem is the idea of a UMT in the first place. People don't all agree with much of physics which is a lot more concrete and verifyable then magic in shadowrun. People also have strong beliefs that are coming into play here.

If magic only worked for Hermetics then I would agree with you. But it also works for Wujen and Hugans and Shamans and Elven Wheel Thingy. They would all disagree about any UMT that didn't agree with their's as the basis for it because it WORKS for them. The Shamans point of view so maybe it should be the basis for it. Or maybe it should be based on Voodoo. They have some practice.

The core problem is it is taking choice away from the players and the GM and dressing it up in different colors.

The UMT is the game mechanics - NOT limits on traditions!

This edition does say that all the traditions are the same, it is simply saying that all the traditions follow the same rules. And why wouldn't they? They are all using the same mana right? They all exist in the same plane right? The all of the same distinctive glow on the astral plane right? So besides what is going on in each magicians head, what makes them different? And the differences in their heads is slightly factored into the rules, with the way they and their traditions deal with drain. Those that see magic as a logical ruled based working use Logic, those that view it as primal and part of their core use Intuition, and those that focus on spirits and deriving power from them use Charisma. This is the technical aspect that defines the differences in the traditions, along with whether or not they are Possession based or not. Also, SR4 leaves it up to the GMs to incorporate the other aspects that come from the tradition flavor, like shamanic masks, the Catholics ban on idly summoning spirits (also the consequences roleplaying wise that comes with it). The fluff should not really have a consequence on the rules of the game or of magic and should only be applied on a GM to GM basis.

The in game result is the problem. Now there is no reason or benefit to having either specialized magicians or more then one type of magic user. They have simplified it to the point of only having one character type.

Maybe if you saw it that way from the beginning but in earlier editions we could have several different magic users in the same group and they were not the same at all. Now you have cookie cutter "Magic User"tm and everything is fluff.

If you want to go that route then maybe we should get rid of all these extra skills. Just have a weapon skill. You have all the different weapon types so why do you need the character to be different? Maybe a social skill because talking to different people is enough. Maybe they should unify the vehicles and just have a Bus!

We just need a Fighter type so we should narrow down all these choices. Lets have all cyberware just "Cyberware" and give it a rating. That would unify the fighter types. Then we could unify the computer person by giving them a "Computer" with a rating and get rid of all of these extra rules. That way be can reduce the possible character types and make the rest in to catagories. All the details should be fluff, right?

You still have so many differences in magical ability that I can't believe you are actually making that claim. The traditions are barely if at all compatable with each other and each magician can specialize in different spells and skill sets than each of the other magicians. You could play a low magic magician you specializes in astral work and investigation or a magician who focuses in healing or a combat mage. The magical ability is a 'cookie cutter' in the slightest. Magicians can be as varied as any other type of character. Just because they all follow the same rules in no way means that they are all the same. If that is what you think then I don't know what kind of magicians you have been playing with.

Like I said, you just have to roleplay the differences between traditions, rather than let the rulebook preprint them on your character sheet.

There are clear cut differences between Shamans, Hermetics, and the rest. They summon different spirits, they learn spells differntly, shaman's have Lodges, Hermetics have Libraries.

Shinto, Voodoo, Wuxing, and Wicca all have differnces. Both in attitude, methodology, and even game mechanics!

Inhabitation/Manifestation, Spirit of Beasts for combat or Spirit of Fire for combat? Ritual spellcasting, or just sorcery?

Unified magic rules, and unified magician rules, do not make unified characters.

All Street Samurai use the same combat rules and cyberware list... that doesn't make them clones.

Rules != Roleplay

In addition to what Thain said, rulesplay instead of roleplay != good in my book. YMMV of course.

I mostly agree, I like to have my rules unified and simple(ish), and I like to emphasize roleplaying as an important way to differentiate characters. But I always liked the differences between magical traditions. I liked the way it helped keep magic mysterious. A mage would see a shaman doing something that he could never do or understand. I liked that. Really, I liked that there were basically two kinds of magic, with lots of variations: Hermetic (formulaic) magic, and Shamanic (intuitive and totemic) magic. Though I realize that UMT does not equal Hermeticism, it is definitely a very hermetic idea. The idea of it having achieved general acceptance, and it being reinforced in the rules, is problematic to me. Yes, I can make it work in my game. I do things to achieve the sort of feel I like. But I do like the idea of shamans and hermetics having different capabilities. It's the same mana, yeah, but it's a completely different way of manipulating it.