My credentials:
-I've been playing 4th edition since it came out (bought the book when it was released at Gencon 2 years ago)
-I have played 3rd edition since basically it was released.
-I've been the main GM for both versions for my group the entire time I have played SR.
-I have played in the GenCon Tourneys since pretty much I started playing. Last year I managed to win (with the rest of my team) the the tournament after years of struggling. A highpoint of my life.


Okay, that out of the way, I want to say I love Shadowrun. Both 3rd and 4th editions. I think each have certain things going for them, but over all, I do like the more streamlined 4th edition a little more for ease of play. I am going to be doing some "comparing" of games here and I hope that is okay. I am not wanting or trying to start an edition vs edition argument. But I do need to do the comparisons to explain my problem.

There's one glaring change that was made to the game that I jsut don't quite understand. It seems broken or unbalanced. That is the "new" initiative.

Previously, no matter how much "initiative" a player had, there was always a chance that they would be slow... or at least slower. Several Wired 3 characters had guaranteed 2nd passes (barring injury) in my gaming group, but they still might be slower sometimes than many Wired 1 characters due to the roll of the dice. On average they would be going "first" but not always. And they never knew for sure how many passes they were gonna get (often 2, sometimes 3) until those dice were rolled. It was possible to build a no wired character and actually get a second pass on a really good roll. The players were always excited when this happened.

With 4th Edition, passes are automatic for the most part. No matter how lousy you roll Init, you are gonna have that many passes. It has made the value of Init passes jsut sky rocket with the unwired (or unmagicked) characters jsut sucking hind tit every single turn. I know it's a change in the game. Maybe the designers actually intended to make assorted improved reflex type stuff that much more potent, but to me it has lost some of the ... zing. It's too predictable.

I personally really liked the old variance and it's the only major part of 4th Edition that jsut leaves me a little cold every time I run it.

So chime in. Give me your opinions here. Does anyone else feel this way? Does anyone else use any house rules to make it feel more like 3rd Ed. in this aspect? I don't know that I even would want to play a non-official rules game, but I would like to hear others thoughts.

If this has been brought up before, I apologize, but I have never seen anyone discuss Initiative in this aspect on the boards here.

Thanks!

Vlad

I tend to agree. One thing that I've seen mix it up, but that I also think is often forgotten about, is spending a point of edge to gain an initiative pass or to go first. I've tossed that one out a few times as a GM and my players don't seem to do preferring, I suppose, to save Edge for re-rolls and exploding sixes.

I don't like that the initiative system, as it is in 4th, often ends up having the same order, too. Maybe character A and B swap places in the order once in a while, but in general, my players seem to get very used to the fact that they're going to be acting in the same pattern turn after turn.

That being said, I do like the fact that we don't need the subtract ten and go again rule anymore. I guess it did have allow a variable number of initiative passes for a character, and getting that all important 21 on your roll was always a welcome sight, but it was one of the more difficult things to explain to new players, in my experience. Of course rolling ones initiative and adding the resulting hits onto ones initiative is also rather confusing for people.

The thing that I found, in my game, that balances it out is the rule that the use of edge can give extra initiative passes. (pg. 67) and that edge can be used on initiative tests.

However, I can still see the issue. Especially in long, drawn out fights or in a day with multiple fights.

One thing suggested by a player was the idea that 'edge passes' last for the fight rather than just one pass, or that you can pay two edge to have it do so.

I like it. The only thing I'm not sure about with SR4 initiative is that you roll reaction and then add successes to your reaction. It seems too much like doubling up on an already useful stat. but i can see the value in making it less likely to have lots of people operating on the same passes, so I'm fine with it.

The thing is, Initiative Passes are really nice but not the end-all be-all of combat as they only come up at the end of a Combat Turn. Getting that first move in -- a function of Initiative, not IPs -- can often be instrumental in determining the outcome of a combat scenario. I mean, all it takes is one decent hit and now you're suffering a modifier to everything you do (if you're not completely incapacitated to begin with).

Sure, Initiative only comes into play at the very beginning of the Combat Turn, but extra Iniatiative Passes only come in at the end. Both have their value, and it comes down to which is more important to you: Getting in the first move or getting the last?

That said, the only thing the game is really missing right now is a "cheap" form of augmented reflexes, with or without negative side effects. In older editions, a street ganger could believably get ahold of a Boosted Reflexes treatment, for example. This edition, everything costs a fortune... so even a Reflexes 1 effect is a Big Deal in prolonged combat. Which is a good thing in some respects, not so good in others. Tough call as to which I personally prefer.

All in all I greatly prefer the new system in total. It's a lot more streamlined and less confusing to learn. It also relies less on random luck and is thus more consistant, which is a good thing for knowing exactly what your character is truly capable of.

...I also prefer the SRIII initiative method for many of the same reasons in the OP. I seem to have very little difficulty with the old style of initiative countdown.

...it's so easy a child can do it.
--Tom Lerher New Math

edit: Reply to Doc Funk
Cheap combat drugs give an extra IP. I figure security guards use those plenty.
And wired reflexes 1 is roughly as cheap as boosted reflexes 1 ever was, I think, so it's a lot more believable for gangers to get them. (I don't really remember the numbers)

Oh, those gangers have access to booster drugs, which give them the excess initiative. It's cheap and available, it's just not something its wise to mess with.

All good points Doc. I've pointed players looking for a cheap initiative boost at the drugs in SR4. Cram seems to be a local favorite in my games.

Edit: curses, beaten again

You just need more IP.

Has anyone seen boosted reflexes ported to sr4? I don't have sr3 PDFs on my laptop anymore or I'd take a peak at them again.

I like the new initiative system - its a lot easier for new players - although it loses some of its variable fun. I also like that three initiative passes is out of reach for most characters - it gives them something to work for. I don't like how it is the easiest for the Mage to get that third pass.

Edge is already super powerful. Having an extra pass from edge last the entire combat would take it over the top.

My biggest disappointment is the flavor text of Wired Reflexes. They took the wires out of wired reflexes and made them some weird bio/cyber hybrid.

I would love to see Boosted come back. Does anyone know if it appears in Augmentation? I don't have my copy yet. I'm waiting on the print version.

I actually prefer Initiative as being your raw number of hits rather then your hits plus your Initiative dicepool. It gives out more random initit values and makes characters occassionally lose actions due to severe injuries (something which never happens in the basic rules). It also makes it easier to explain initiative to people as it puts it back into the normal mechanics more firmly.

It's a reasonably minor optional rule and seems to cover most of your complaints.

-Frank

@ Dizzman

Nope, no boosted reflexes in Augmentation. If no one else ports them before me, I'll take a stab at it tonight or tomorrow. I just don't have any of my sr3 books with my anymore since I don't carry the PDFs on my laptop any longer.

Boosted Reflexes was a one-time treatment that increased reflexes but was irreplaceable and had other problems.

Game Mechanically it would look something like this:

Boosted Reflexes Essence, Cost, Effect

1. .5, 50000 , +1 IP
2. 2, 90,000 , +2 IP +1 Reaction

And I'm not going to pretend that the intermediate level of Boosted Reflexes existed.

-Frank

... Those prices are retarded, man.

the third edition stats:

BR 1: +1d6 initiative, .5 essence, 15k credits
BR 2: +1d6 initiative, +1 reaction (reaction was something completely different, but whatever) 1.25 essence, 40k credits
BR 3: +2d6 initiative, +2 reaction, 2.8 essence, 90k credits

i would agree with frank's conversion, except for the price. SR4 appears to have cut the WR bonus to reaction in half, which leads me to agree with the numbers. if i *was* going to re-introduce BR 2, i'd probably give it a +1 to initiative only, not to reaction.

availability was also extremely low.

the conversion of price and availability would be (imo)

BR 1: 3-4,000 nuyen
BR 2: 5-6,000 nuyen
BR 3: 15-20,000 nuyen (maybe a little higher, but not much)

availability would probably be rating x 4, imo... you should be able to get rating 3 at chargen, because it actually isn't as good as WR 2.

i might consider reducing the essence cost a bit, but not much... and of course, it just plain can't be removed. ever. this isn't a matter of "you can't get the essence back", the implant simply can't be removed. it also prevents you from getting wired reflexes in previous editions, as well as the VCR (now the control rig). i would probably let you put in wired reflexes or synaptic (they wouldn't stack, of course) but you still could never remove the 'ware, and the essence is permanently gone because of that... you can't even get an essence hole.

Eh? I'm well familiar with Boosted Reflexes. It was basically the "poor man's Wired Reflexes," with crappy stats, a huge downside, and relatively low impact on your system for a bargain price. A chemical treatment that predated Wired Reflexes, really.

The stats you gave were fine. It's the prices that are absolutely retarded, both in conversion and purpose. I mean, even Wired Reflexes 2 are only 32,000-nuyen yet you gave Boosted 1 a 50,000-nuyen pricetag?! C'mon...

Yes, and Synaptic Boosters can be replaced let alone without expensive genetech treatments. That was one of the reasons Boosted Reflexes were so cheap. There was also the downside that you couldn't shut the Boosted Reflexes off (a mechanic largely ignored in SR4), meaning that if it were ported over it would come with some downsides on top of being subpar.

C'mon, man. I know you know conversions aren't just about the base stats and the cost. You have to convert the intent, not just the rules... and especially not just part of the rules.

It's supposed to be an extremely cheap "ganger-friendly" alternative that can't be removed, has a lower impact on your Essence and is buggy as Hell when compared with the alternatives. "You get what you pay for."

I am thinking the only way to get back the flavor I liked so well and yet make it flow with the current mechanics is to make getting all your passes some sort of threshold test based off the number of hits you receive from your Initiative test.

Something to the effect of:

You roll your Initiative as normal: Roll X Init dice and add the successes to your Init score. Then compare the number of hits you had on the roll to the below chart:

* 2 hits , you get your 2nd pass (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for it)

* 3 hits you get your 3rd and 4th (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for them)

and then to jsut shake things up and make it fun:

* 4+ hits on your test, you gain a second pass (if you are unwired/unspelled.)

______________________________________

Off the top of my head and without massive number crunching, that seems fairly balanced.

A non-wired guy is probably tossing around 6-7 dice on average for Init so 4+ hits won't come up that often, but when it does, it will give them that nice lucky shot. And he is still only picking up a second pass.

A wired guy is probably tossing around 8-11 dice so he is more than likely to always make his threshold for secondary and tertiary passes... but sometimes not.

I think these house rules (or something similar) I could live with and they would bring back the old variances a bit. And without adding much more complexity to the entire thing. Still just one roll and jsut counting the hits made.

Comments? Suggestions?

Vlad

Here's my initial stab at a conversion.

Boosted Reflexes 1: 3,000¥, Availability 4, Initiative +1, Initiative Passes +1, equivalence of Gremlins* 3 and Bad Luck* when making any tests using a Physical Attribute.
Boosted Reflexes 2: 10,000¥, Availability 8, Initiative +2, Initiative Passes +2, equivalence of Gremlins* 1 and Bad Luck* when making any tests using a Physical Attribute.

* If the character already has either of these negative qualities, the effects stack. In the case of Bad Luck, this means the opposite intent occurs when the 1D6 roll results in a 1 or a 2. Negative results due to these quirks should be described as being the result of overreacting and/or twitching.

Both require a 50,000¥/0.2 Essence genetech treatment to be removed, though you can upgrade from Boosted Reflexes 1 to Boosted Reflexes 2 without such treatment. Other forms of Initiative booster cannot be installed in a character with Boosted Reflexes until the Boosted Reflexes are removed. Reaction Enhancers are compatible with Boosted Reflexes.

Dr Funk, I think that the niche you're looking to fill, a cheap dodgy initiative-boosting item, is already filled in SR4.

That item is Wired Reflexes.

Yeah, I know, it takes a while to switch your head around from thinking that Wires are a street sam's personal place in the universe, but the truth is, they're just not. Costs have gone down by a factor of ten.

If you're looking for a cheap initiative boost, you're not going to get much cheaper than the price of Used Wires 1.

As of SotA64 (I think), Boosted Reflexes could in fact be altered via Gene therapy. I see that Doc Funk obliquely referred to this a couple of times, but I hadn't finished the thread in total, and figured it was worth a mention.

After having a number of fights where rolling initiative didn't change anything except the amount of time we took to move from one Combat Turn to the next, we just roll Initiative once for the whole fight. I give them the option of rerolling each turn, just to try to get a better score, but the offer is seldom taken.

You can totally just go back to the SR3 initiative rules. Your initiative is your base number, and you roll a number of d6's equal to your IP, adding it to your initiative. Use the count down by ten to determine who goes more than once in a round.

If your players don't mind throwing massive amounts of dice for an init test you could have any of the boosts to IP give a +3 to initiative and then rolls as normal, hits adding to the init attribute. Then switch back to the old way to figure out passes. Only real downside is that you would have a even more defined turn order, with people always going the same order. Also the guys with the enhancers would usually go first and the amount of passes wouldn't change that often. Using edge to reroll failures would be incredibly useful for a high init guy also. The only thing this would really do is give variance to the number of IP's, but at the cost of making turn order pretty stagnant.

I'm rather failing to understand how the SR4 Init system isn't *more* stagnant of action order than the SR1/2/3 one. SR4 is, basically, everyone goes almost at once, with a relatively narrow range of order difference, and then the people with boosted Inits go again and again. SR3 is the more boosted you are, the more likely you are to act first, with a wider range of numbers. Which is exactly the point of having a high Init.

I tend to prefer the SR3 system, though I don't mind the SR4 one. It just seems like it's a break in the 'realism' to do it the SR4 way. If you are able to react and move three times as fast as the other guy, you should be able to take two actions before he can. Being able to take two actions *after* he does doesn't make much sense to me, save from the point of view of trying to make sure slower people have a better chance to do *something* in the round before they die/are incapacitated/the fight is over.

On the topic of Boosted Reflexes, I think they sucked for players. It was a last ditch sort of item that only the gangers would go for. SR4's drugs are a good substitute for them and I don't see a need to convert them.


On a side note, did anyone ever use the old Init system the technically proper way, consistently? You know, where everyone rolls, then you count *up* and everyone declares what they are going to do on their first pass, and then you count down and actually have people act. Our group did for a session or three, and while we like the realism, (At 3, all of the bystanders are turning to run. At 9 the guards are raising their weapons to shoot you. You go a 16 and do what in response?), but it was too cumbersome to do every round. (And this comes from a guy who likes the Earthdawn dice system. [As a player. It's hell as a GM.])

That is why, CyberKender, I am a big fan of the 4-2-3-1 system.

Obviously, those with 4 init passes go first, then those with two, then three, then one. 4-3-2-1 would almost make more sense, but would put more emphasis than I am comfortable with on having high IPs.


Chris

Actually there was one use for Boosted Reflexes, it was not specifically incompatible with a Synaptic Accelerator leaving an essence chewing loophole to get 5d6 for initiative.

I sorta did init right, as in if my players ever asked what the slowpoke was going to do, I'd tell them what he intended; otherwise we just counted down like most everybody else.

As far as optional initiative systems go, I like odinson's idea but it leaves characters with the investment in 4 IPs with a below-average chance of going 4 times and gives anyone with an Init of 8+ an above-average chance of going twice without any IP boosters.

I don't like the idea that cyberware\bioware has variable performance in the proposed house rule. I don't think that makes much sense. If we were talking drugs, that I could understand because they can be variable on their effects. Cyberware\bioware is always going to have the same performance unless it is damaged or not operating correctly. So what exactly is this dice roll for IPs accomplishing in terms of fluff? Why would my wired 3 sometimes give me 3 IPs and sometimes, if I rolled rather poorly, 1 IP. We already have something that places the human variability into the equation and that is rolling for Initiative. Someone with wired 3 I see as always operating very quickly, they just might not be the first to always act in the initiative due to some flub, them not paying attention, or whatever fluff reason.

The 4-2-3-1 system sounds interesting to me, but it really gives an even greater bonus to those with multiple IPs. Though depending on how you look at IP boosters it might actually make more sense for IPs to work this way. I have the tendency to believe that acting faster doesn't necessarily mean you are reacting faster as well.

What do you think of 4-1-3-2?

That does balance it out a little bit more, Aaron. I may have to try that this weekend and see if the difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-3-2 is noticeable. I have to say one of the things that I like about this alternate initiative pass situation is that Often every combat turn begins with movement only(my players often have 3 IPs but rarely 4 at this point. I'm heavy on mages who are initiating and not buying foci for the time being.) and I see that as being pretty realistic as well as facilitating combat itself. Often you have to advance some, or you want to take cover etc. before anything else. I mean unless you are very quick on your mental and physical feet then your first reaction in a battle is going to be movement not striking. Especially if you didn't know an opponent was there.


Chris

My understanding is that in SR4, the combat is more abstract. The 3 second combat turn is divided up into 4 passes, and for the most part, things are all going on a the same time.

Its not like each IP is x seconds, its that all this stuff is happening in the frame of 3 seconds.

So the unaugmented guy is getting his single action phase, while the WR2 guy is getting three action phases in that same 3 second turn.

I try to keep my descriptions of action a little more abstract during the IPs and for the most part, it seems that all these actions are resolved simultaneously...

I know i'm late in this thread, but I have found that the Initiative rolls are all over the map.

In the 6 games I have GM'd so far when we are in combat I have never had the same order twice and have only had the fastest guy on top twice.

So I guess your mileage may very.

In the game I play in, me(Voodoo Mage) and the Street Sam vie for first in initiative if I'm currently possessed(channeling is so good) and he's ALWAYS first if I'm not possessed. Then the PhysAd, then the Magician/infiltrator. Usually our enemies go after me and him and before the infiltrator. PhysAd bounces around a little, and I'm ALWAYS last when not possessed. I always roll poorly when I'm not possessed for some reason, it's an odd little phenomenon.

So, I can see why some people complain about static initiative orders, but in the case of our game with our backgrounds and such it makes a lot of sense for it to usually be this way. Combat experience, magic, and whatnot.


Chris

With the folks I've been playing with, modifying the penalties for a glitch and critical glitch made it more interesting.
While normally a glitch results in just losing any ties in initiative, and a critical glitch means going last each pass and loosing one pass to a min of one (p134 SR4), we played with it a bit.
For us, a glitch would halve your initiative for the first IP (rounded up, an 8 init with 3 hits and a glitch would go on 6, then 11 for any extra passes) and a critical glitch would have your init. for all IP and you would loose 1 extra pass, to a minimum of 1 IP.
It seemed to give us some variety. Out of the 4 PCs, we would glitch about once a fight if we kept it quick, 2-3 times if we got pinned down. Same rules applied to the enemy, so every once and a while we would get lucky and get one action before the spirit that's chasing us out of a building, or unlucky, and a security patrol would get the drop on our street sam (must have been scratching himself or something).