You could just screw that "Resonance isn't magic" crap and create a "Mystic Technomancer" hybrid class like the Mystic Adept. Call your Resonance pool a Magic pool and split your Magic pool for technomancer + adept/magician goodness. One of my favorite changes in SR4 was the combination of Deckers and Riggers. Why shouldn't the Awakened classes be any different?

One of the books mentioned that the transhumanists were trying to create an Ascended Being, so that would be a nice name for the class. Heck let them split their magic between Technomancer, Adept, AND Magician if they want using the Mystic Adept rules, how game breaking could it be? You'd end up with a character who sucked at everything, but it'd be really cool. 200 karma later, you'd have Neo. At chargen, charge the same BP as Mystic Adept + Technomancer (10bp and 5 bp i think, so the Ascended Being positive quality would be 15 bp) and use the Mystic Adept rules for splitting the Magic points between the 3 classes. That sounds like fun and I don't think it would be particularly broken.

Personally, I think there needs to be more a look at the flavor and less of a focus on mechanics. Any reasonable GM will work with it's players to make sure thier players will have thier moments to shine, regardless of whose characters are the most "effective." The complaint should not be about the mechanics of the character but about a GM who doesn't allow your character to shine just because the mechanics might be a little off.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the rules should make the job of keeping everyone happy any harder than it has to be for the GM. I also must say that such an approach isn't appropriate for all groups either. My group doesn't really need a soccer mom approach from our gm; we're not there to make sure we all feel special because we tried our best even if the dice says we suck. I like rp best when it's about situations and consequences, not molding the game around people's preconceptions of what their character "should" be capable of. Creating a fluffy background isn't RP to me, but sucking it up and dealing (in character) with the bad consequences the dice just handed you is. Anyway, my group likes rp, but I think we like collaborative problem solving even more than we like collaborative storytelling. Quite simply, TMs require an awful lot of babying for how much they bring to the table. They're truly awesome in the right circumstances, but honestly, I'd like to see the sacrifice it takes to be a good one toned down a tiny bit.

Only if all that you want is to make the Technomancer a combat-focused character too, and your game is heavily sided on combat, does the Technomancer character need the 'soccer mom' approach. However, the Technomancer isn't meant as combat-focused character, and the rules for them are quite new.
Unwired will be the book about all Matrix things, and that means Technomancers and more Echoes, sprite abilities and such.

Your issue is with Magicians and a belief that they are overpowered. All while still ignoring that they have a consequence to pay for that ability.

That has nothing -- nada, zip, zilch, nothing -- to do with Technomancers. The people in this thread are basically beginning to give Technomancers -- and only Technomancers -- a worry-free way to bolster their reflexes outside of the Matrix. The place where they're SUPPOSED to suck. And not just suck, but suck BADLY. Nevermind that they can have an entire fleet of super-fast, heavily armed, heavily-armored drones at their command in the meat world with neglibile perforamnce issues. Who cares about that little thing?

It's ridiculous.

I hate to break it to you, but if you want to be good at everything, you simply can't. In fact, the people in this thread are whining because if they do get Wired Reflexes or the like, their performance will be downgraded to being only slightly better than a Hacker in the Matrix as opposed to way beyond.

Forgive me if I don't cry a river over that. Doubly so since they try to make it sound as if they can't recover from it as the game progresses.

I also don't see why people keep bringing up magicians in this thread.

Unlike Technomancers, magicians use the brunt of their abilities in the meat world. They need those extra actions to cast more spells and command more spirits. What unique abilities do Technomancers have in the meat world again? None whatsoever? Yeah, that's what I thought. Because the brunt of their abilities are Matrix related -- and what do you know, in the Matrix they have fantastic reflexes. Imagine that. And when they do need to do things solely in the meat world? They can have drones do it for them.

I'm just not seeing this glaring weakness people here are clamoring about.

The issue is that a streetsam can go and drop 20BP into programs on top of their cyber/bioware and BE awesome at everything. But that if a technomancer wants to not be the human backpack who dies from attack programs, they had no option but to go AR and suck. Our groups technomancer's way around this was to only focus on threading and compiling sprites. GM takes over, and tells us if it worked.

Completely streamlines matrix hacking rules, and gets around that pesky question of "well, if i can interact with the matrix with my mind, why can't i just skip through all the security layer hubs to get to the restricted areas?"

The street sam can't sneak, he has to shoot his way into a building. The infiltration expert can sneak in. Why should he need to fire 4 rounds into the door to get in when he spies an open window a few floors up?

Technomancer still has to breach the firewall, and how he "enters" is completely for descriptive purposes over the hacker. Its still the same soy flavored rules.

Anyone running VR has fantastic reflexes. Technomancers used to have the edge with that submersion technique, but with AUG, that edge is gone.

You're forgetting though, Mages can do astral as well. Noone else can do that without summoning. Astral perception is not to AR as projection is to VR though, because you can't drop 20BP on "magical programs" to handle barriers and astral combat.

The weakness is that a skill-based character can be well rounded and handle all aspects of meat-world well enough. An ultra speced character can be god at one thing, but still be alright at other things (max agi and max one skill is not that big of a deal)

Sure, Rounded might be able to do anything, but Speced can function and squeak by. Technomancer can only spec to matrix.

Funk, the problem with your drone analogy, is that anyone with some cash can have drones piloted with agents doing the exact same thing. Almost as good as the technomancer. And, they'd have more IPs to give their drones different commands, instead of the drones obliterating one guy, and sitting idle waiting for their next command.

Sprites are not all that much better at piloting a drone than an agent is. And, if you have so many sprites that you are, a mage could have that many bound spirits instead, and be much more effective at meat combat than the drones would be, while still having his 3-4IPs from increased reflexes.

If you compare technomancers to the most closely related 'archetype' - hacker adepts - you actually get a pretty good comparison. Both have real problems getting boosted reflexes by cyberware because they need the BPs for other things (buying equipment and magic and buying resonance and complex forms respectively) and it is more expensive for an adept with magic 4 (3 points spent on being a hacker adept, and one lost to cyberware) to get the adept improved reflexes than it is to buy synaptic boosters so he's not going to get the adept power.

It just looks to me that the real difference is that you can be a pretty awesome hacker adept for ~350 ish BPs including gear, who's throwing down 4 dice of skill + 5 dice of program + hotsimming via a DNI on everything, with plenty (~50 bps) to slap down on skills and equipment for something else. Like being a mini face, or a rigger, or some stealth skills and so forth. Which our technomancer doesn't really get to do.

So the problem is not that a technomancers get the shaft from the IP rules, because they can totally buy a synaptic booster like anyone else. What they don;t have is the BPs to afford to buy that booster because their other abilities are seriously BP intensive.

And because losing resonance means losing a ton of potential in their specialty.

Which in the end only means that all that people care for is having an optimized character at character generation for a one-shot adventure, and nothing else.

I agree with Fortune. (Weird, I know). I think it adds a bit of realism that not all PCs are created equal, even despite equal BP. There is a reason that it's common street wisdom to Geek the Mage First after all.

what i don't get is that people are objecting to TMs getting multiple IPs in the meat (to handle AR hacking) because they think it will make TMs good in their meatbods.

news flash: attribute 2-3, skill 1 (with a specialisation) is not going to steal the street sam's thunder in any way, shape, or form. and that's about the most i've ever had with any technomancer in a combat skill, or in dodge.

what it does is give them some capability to move to cover and hack, rather than doing a faceplant and getting shot repeatedly until they die while they try to hack.

if the technomancer does somehow manage to scrap together enough BPs to get good combat skills, then he isn't going to be "slightly better than a hacker" in the matrix. he will suck in the matrix. because that's the only way he can develop the skills and physical attributes to be effective in physical combat. he's still completely reliant on drones for interacting with the meat world effectively, the only difference is that with multiple IPs he can try to hack while in the meatworld, and actually get anything accomplished. ie you don't need to hire an extra troll just to carry the technomancer's body.

What's especially amusing about this conversation is it's the people that still refer to characters in Shadowrun as belonging to a certain "class," that keep insisting those same characters should innately all be very good at two or more wholly unrelated things. At the same time that they're so eager to shoehorn everyone in Shadowrun into a tidy, defining, confining, ridiculous term as fitting a character class, they're stamping their feet and insisting everyone should be (to keep the D&D terms flowing) a multiclassed character.

I am amused.

Only in so far as your wanting the matrix to revert to the hacking from the basement of older editions. At the moment a mundane hacker can be faster in AR than a technomancer without having to cripple his skills to do it. A technomancers resonance has a direct impact on his skills. Yes he can drop his resonance to get meat passes but meat passes just aren't the solution. Yes he can get sprites to hack for him but commanding them is still an action (which the TM is rapidly running short of if he's to do things like seek cover) If a TM is intended to excel in the matrix and it seems certain that he is, then this has to include the AR matrix as well. A TM in a wireless and mobile matrix should be able to employ the mobility of the matrix not just in the regular mundane environment but within the context of a run with bullets firing and IC pouring into their ears.

Perhaps a good analogy here would be if the Improved reflexes spell were only available to hermetics and not shamanics or if Hermetics could only astrally assence and not project. All other things being equal and wanting to enjoy the possibilities of the game wouldn't you choose the option that was more open than the option that was limited?

With all the discussion of cybered adepts and awakened with synaptic accelleration it seems that those who believe there is no issue would agree.

That actually makes sense by the rules too. You can control AR through a simsense interface, you don't have to use meat interfaces like AR gloves and goggles, therefore Overclocking should work on AR too. As long as the tm is controlling AR through his wireless magic, he should get his bonus from Overclocking.

While it makes sense, it essentially means that the TM has now 2 physical IPs, and shoots people twice as fast.

As the TM 'overclocked' his brain, this is perfectly plausible... but will add to the power creep.

It means that he shoots people twice as fast in fantasy game time, but he doesn't shoot people twice as fast as far as players are concerned, which is really what matters. He is still forced to use that second IP for AR work, so he can't actually fire any more shots than he could before. Wayyyyy less power creep than some of the stuff in Street Magic, and probably the other books, too.

The borders of AR are pretty clear, where's the confusion?

See, giving technomancers full access to adept powers and making them perfect shots is hardly game breaking, because other builds Do it all the time.

Similarly, arguing that giving them extra general IP isn't going to break the game because they have low physical stats and combat skills isn't an effective argument. You can make a technomancer with high physical stats and combat skills. Most don't, but there's nothing inherent to getting the technomancer quality than forces your physical stats lower, unlike the origional Otaku.

Now I don't like technomancers as written either. I don't like the whole human radio thing, and I don't like that people who have the power to interface with technology like no one else lose that when a little of that technology gets put in them. On the same level I don't want technomancer Sammies. So I use the following house rules:

1:Technomancers have a natural skinlink, one that works even on unmodified electronics. All they need to do is touch a machine to communicate with it, and if that machine has a radio, then they're hooked up to the matrix. Since even underware has RFID tags, you'd be hard pressed to find a technomancer without a radio signal in skinlink range. This replaces their signal rating.

2:Technomancers do not lose resonance to implants. They do, however, take double essence loss from all implants, as if they had sensitive system for both cyberware and bioware (and genetics, incidentally). This prevents a technomancer from totally loading out on cyber.

If you used house rule 2, you could get your technomancer some wired reflexes or synaptic link and get what you want.

I like Platonic Pimp's simple and easy house rule. Another one to consider is:

1. Technomancers do not lose resonance from bioware implants. Resonance loss from cyberware is calculated normally.

This option has the upside of giving the technomancer a range of IP and other boosts, but at a very high nuyen cost. It also makes a certain amount of sense from the fluff perspective. Whether the technomancer boost is a type of magical ability or a biologically based change - it makes sense that cyberware would reduce its effect more than bioware. Although I don't have Augmentation yet, I'm sure you could extend the benefit to geneware as well.

At character generation, even with 450 BP, it would be very hard for a character to get anything more than one or two levels of synaptic accelerator and maybe some muscle toner/aug. Hardly anything that would challenge a starting Street Sam who has access to much cheaper cyberware and the spare BP to spend on it.

On the downside, it requires an extra set of record keeping as the player has to keep track of bio and cyberware separately. Nothing to onerous for a house rule.

Another idea for the house related above. It could also be a 10 point merit. In fact, I think that would be a great merit for the upcoming Runners Companion for 4th Edition.

I actually really don't see the problem with leaving TMs AR a little gimped. If a TM has no damage, a threaded CF and a full compliment of sprites nothing in the RAW has can stop them but another TM. The only thing that keeps them from running ruff shod over the planet is that they get nickel and dimed to death doing anything. If they had a super effective way to play it safe that would make it nearly pointless to play an adept hacker and completely pointless to play a mundane hacker. I don't see the point in giving them a buff, so can COMPLETELY dominate.

I have no problem if the sole reason people wanted a reflex boost was to improve their AR abilities slighty -- a genuine oversight in the design process of the character type which should neither exist nor be a problem to house rule away.

My problem is with the people who wanted it in general even if they come in and try to claim otherwise. They want universal reflexes that work in the meat world as well as the Matrix so that they can be little gun bunnies mowing down the competition as well as Matrix hotshots. You can see them complaining about it in a few of the posts here, talking about how everyone else is magically unstoppable everywhere except them. Which is pure hogwash.

Yep. A hacker using AR is unaffected by Black Hammer and Blackout, but his Icon can still be crashed by Attack programs. In contrast, a technomancer takes damage whenever their Persona does, since they share the same damage track (IE, TM=Persona). You can kill a TM with just a simple Attack program regardless of how they're logged into the matrix. And there is still Fading to contend with.

If you look at it, what are the real benefits a Technomancer has compared to a hacker?

1. Can still connect to the Matrix if they take your commlink
2. Hot Sim without a sim module, modified or otherwise
3. 1 unregistered sprite, and (Charisma) registered sprites
4. Threading to raise complex forms above the 6 rating limit
5. No System/Response loss due to # of programs like a Hacker

Limits on Technomancers include:

1. At chargen in a 400 BP build, it is difficult to have a decent living persona and any combat ability (Bod 3/Agi 2/Rea 3/Cha 3/Int 5/Log 5/Wil 5) forcing a tradeoff of Matrix effectiveness for combat survivability. And don't forget that BOD limits the amount of armor you can wear without penalty (Armor and Encumberance, p 149 SR4), so dropping it to 2 means the best armor w/o penalty is armored clothing (4/0) or a leather jacket (2/2)
2. To have a decent set of complex forms, Resonance and sprites, expect to spend between 50 and 100 BP, this will reduce gear, skills, and contacts
3. Limited # of complex forms at chargen (Logic * 2) means for a decent bit of running, the TM will have to Thread forms to survive while hacking, reducing effectiveness and forcing fading tests
4. No Matrix Icon Damage Track
5. Do Hot Sim addiction rules still apply to Technomancers?

So a Technomancer is spending 60 BP (compared to a Hacker's 8-10BP commlink and programs) for access to sprites, no System/Response loss, Threading, and a huge vulnerability to basic attack programs (hacker's can just log out, reboot, Spoof their commcode and try again in under a minute, a TM needs to rest an hour to get rid of stun).

Personally, I wouldn't make a technomancer unless I had 450BP for chargen. At this point I would take the Resonance hit and get 1 point worth of Bioware, at least Synaptic Boosters 1 and Damage Compensators, or Syn. Boosters 2.

When I can make a hacker with similar a similar number of skills, more gear, better physical stats, higher edge, and more points left for contacts, why wouldn't I? So I don't have sprites, but I still have agents and even if they aren't as smart, they don't run out of services. The only true loses are threading and system/response limiting programs, but with extra IPs from bio/cyber, I can swap programs fairly quickly.

Anyone see something I missing?

Damnit, I just had my SR4 book handy the other day, now that I need it...

...



See, I'm seeing something that just doesn't sound right to me. TM's DIE from attack programs? I know they can be crashed out of the matrix, but I either assumed (or read, I really can't say) that Attack programs only did stun to them?

Just like fading typically should only do stun to them (unless, you know, they get desperate and CHOSE to risk physical damage)... and the thing is, stun goes away pretty quick.


Now, since i could be the crack smoker here (Jazz huffer?), lets move to something less dependent upon RAW:

WTF stops the TM from dropping into VR for only short periods? You guys talk like once he slumps he's out for the rest of the run (being hauled around like sack of meat being the common depiction).

Also, what sort of creep is your GM being? Seriously, you got runners with wires and guns, and mages needing geeking, and the security guards are looking for the weedy dude slumped behind a desk passed the F*** out? TM's are rare, fluff wise, its not like that will be the natural instinct of a security guard.


'Hey, this guy is passed out. Must be a technomancer, better kack him now rather than worry about the 8 foot tall collection of muscle and razor blades leaping over the desk at me...'

Never mind that he's still not helpless then, drones or not. Smartlink systems are dead common, futzing up the IFF in it will buy time... never mind the sudden raise in 'threat priority' everyone's PAN suddenly gets when some murderous bastard desides that killing the helpless stoner is more fun that participating in the firefight.


A full breakdown of the major difference between sprite operated and pilot operated drones would take too long to really get into but here's a big one: Sprite don't need lists of 'if than' statements to operate effectively. Telling a sprite drone to 'protect my meat' is as simple as and effective as telling the sammy. Telling an agent pilot that technically requires lists of who to shoot, when to shoot and pray you thought of every contingency.

Of course, I'm sure most games are more lazy about it, but there are differences.

Hey, it's not like I'm saying TMs are utterly unplayable. There's ways to make VR manageable. But -having- to go into VR to have the passes to make real noise in matrix combat and always being vulnerable to at least stun damage kind of sucks. And actually, I was incorrect about the dying from attack programs. My memory is going, and I apologize. Apparently my group has overestimated that effect in the past. What actually happens is if your condition track gets filled up (and you always take stun like Spike said), you get immediately disconnected and your persona crashes. Sorry I threw people off.

When a TM is knocked unconscious (full stun track) his/her living persona crashes, knocking them off-line, whether an attack program or Blackout did the damage, though I haven't seen anything about Black IC being able to keep Technomancer online or not once unconscious. If it crashes no matter what, this may actually help TMs since Black Hammer would not be able to stop the crashing persona and damage wouldn't overflow into physical damage.

A hacker can loose his icon to attack IC and be back online in under a minute in most cases, a TM crashed needs medical attention or magical healing to be back on in anything less than an hour. Hacker's don't suffer dice pool penalties as far as I can tell if their icon is damaged by attack programs, only Black IC (since it's stun), but TMs take stun from Attack and therefore, die penalties for every 3 boxes of damage. I would call that a pretty big vulnerability.

That's how I read it at least.

Stun and unconciousness alike: I suppose it depends on how you play your SR. Is it a micheal bay movie with big explosions and kinetic action sequences (you took out a helicopter... with a CAR)

Or is it more like and early James Bond flick, with lots of walking around talking to people, clever plans and nifty toys? The kind where you slump back in your office chair with the martini, pretend like you are just a little drunk while your magic brain steals the passcodes from the commlink of the Corp over at the baccarat table so you can hand it off to the bio-sammy so he do the meat portion of the run?