So, I want to make a Technomancer for this game I'm playing in. Our team is only two people big, so we each get 450 BP to work with, which is just fine, as technomancers are painfully starved for build points and Karma. But anyway, I want him to be able to hack well without slumping down on the floor all the time. Now, since while working with AR you move at meat speeds, that means he needs better reflexes. But here's the thing: technomancers have no way to get better reflexes. Mages can cast Increase Reflexes. Adepts can buy Increase Reflexes. Anyone else can undergo everyone's favorite extremely, painfully invasive cybernetic procedure. And technomancers can...sit on their butt.

So can anyone tell me how to get more meat initiative passes as a technomancer, or barring that, how to hack systems without going into VR all the time?

...this has been my argument against Technomancers all along.

The only way is to use Edge (which is limited to how much edge you have & when the GM lets it refresh), or look into combat drugs (which have undesirable side effects though)
.

Yeah, Hack them in AR. Whats so hard about that? You don't get your +2 for full VR. and you're at a base 1ap per ip instead of 3. Just pump your stealth as high as you can. The less detected you are, the less you need those extra APs. The only problem is you won't be able to hack in, browse what you need, and command it to open (for example to open a door in front of you) as fast as if you went VR/had more meat IP. (Taking 9 seconds instead of 3 in that example).

Err, what exactly stops you from getting something like Synaptic Booster 1 or 2? Yes, your Resonance takes a hit just like a magician Magic does, but that's the price you pay if you want to be good inside the Matrix as well as out...

Nothing does funk. As he said, mages can use increased reflexes to get those extra IPs without losing magic. Technos have the options of drugs, edge, a friendly mage, or essence/resonance cost.

Mages deal with the real world. Technomancers deal with the matrix. They get their "increased reflexes" in the world they specialize in. Why should they have a speed boost outside the matrix where they're nothing but weak little computer nerds? Or are you advocating that magicians should be able to ahve all of a techmancer's speed inside the matrix via magic, too?

Mages deal with the astral. They get their extra IPs while projecting. But they can also get them via a spell in the physical.

Techno's deal with the matrix. They get their extra IPs while in VR. But they can't also get them in the physical without sacrificing their specialty.

<just rolls his eyes>

How about having your friendly neighbourhood mage casting Increased Reflexes on you if you want to hack while in AR? You know, these spells can be cast upon other persons too.

Oh wow, you mean there's ACTUAL consequences for wanting to be an awesome Technomancer AND good in physical combat? Who woulda thunk it. That should be changed at once.

Sorry Doc Funk, but I'm with Tarantula and friends on this one. It's simply bad game design to have a single class like Technomancer that can't get more initiative passes when every single other class can. Honestly, as cool as the matrix is, you can't kill people with it. Whereas you can kill people with manabolts and guns. Heck, even with those extra initiative passes, it's not as though the technomancer would be a killing machine. His maybe one rank in pistols would not do him a whole lot of good. What he could do is provide matrix backup for his teammates at reasonable speeds while still being able to walk. Is walking too much to ask? Honestly. Having the technomancer be dependent on the party mage - who might or might not even exist - to be effective is not good.

But that's the point. They can get extra IP if they so choose. There is just a trade-off.

Yes, but that tradeoff is of terrible proportions in comparison to other character concepts.

First, there are no classes in this game.

Second, they can -- as Fortune pointed out -- get the extra IP. It just comes at a cost. Just like everyone else. Mages have to give up a spell slot and buy and bond with a focus, a cyberjunkie has to give up Essence that could have gotten him another limb or some other awesome implants, riggers have to pay a bunch to get some implants instead of a few more drones or vehicles, hackers have the same issue, and an adept has to give up a big chunk of their power points that could have been used for cooler powers.

Look! Everyone has to pay the price for their reflexes. Imagine. That.

Third, how the hell do you propose to give Technomancers a "technomancer-only" way of boosting their reflexes? What? Now they can hack living people and boost their natural reflexes? How stupid would that be both conceptually and mechanically? Very. Especially since they can and do have no less than four options to improve their reflexes (Wired Reflexes, Move-By-Wire, Synaptic Booster, and Cram) outside of the Matrix. WHICH IS THEIR MAIN WEAKNESS -- they SUCK outside of the Matrix.

You want your cake and eat it to? Pay the price. Else you better be advocating that everyone should be able to get boosted reflexes without having any consequences.

Finally, if it's really a problem, just play a hacker. Or is there some other reason you want to ply a technomancer instead? Because they're better and more powerful? No, that couldn't be it... not at all.

maybe its not so much that tm's are underpowered but that mages are overpowered?

hell, with ar interface a mage can now even kick ass online. one pc, all worlds (meat, astral, matrix) covered.

anyone up for a build?

Heres the point. A cyberjunkie gives up essence to get the IP instead of a limb or other implants. A techno gives up essence to get the IP. He also gives up resonance which is the very core of what having the technomancer quality is. I note you don't mention that adepts could get cyber to get the extra IP also, which would be the best comparison you can make. Adepts/Mages have a magic rating, which they can lose in order to get cyber for extra IPs. However, they also have the option of using their magic rating in order to gain the extra IPs they need (via powers or spells). Technos have resonance, which they can lose in order to get cyber for extra IPs. But they have no way to use that resonance to gain extra IPs.

Is character creation the only place and time where a character concept is considered valuable at all? Doesn't anybody just try and play first and get his character up to the better level together with the other characters played by the other players? Do people here only care about one-shots, or what?

how many initiative passes does a sprite get out of the box again?

edit:

found out. all of them get 3 pr default. so yet again the power of the tm lies in the sprites...

Yes, it is really the player's fault to reduce the character only to his starting combat capabilities at character creation and be done with it.

Hi there - first post but i really need to stick my oar in.

The issue here is not so much that the technomancer sucks in non VR combat and actions but that the promise of the technomancer idea (which was someone completely immersed at all times) seems to fall flat against other computer users. In AR what seems to be needed is a way for a technomancer to proccess actions online at the same speed as a dumbass gangbanger with wired reflexes. Now AR is distinct from astral space in that it is open to other characters beyond mages and adepts willing to pay up and it is because of this that technomancers should be beefed up for AR actions.

While not RAW I would have no objection to a technomancer getting 3 passes as a free perk so long as only one involved his physical body. It would simulate the immersion idea and would get the TMs out of the bunker the way wireless did for deckers/hackers.

At the moment i would not play a TM as the build seems to be massively inferior to other archetype designs. Especially when you consider the lack of a second path for technomancers in augmenting their capabilities.

…a little after the fact, however, I’ve read all the arguments and when it comes down to it, Technomancers are still crocked more than any other archetype. In all the campaigns I’ve been in, a techno would never have survived her first mission. Like they Otaku before them they cannot handle running in the meat world unless they have the big bad Troll Sammy buddy to step in the way and take the bullets for them.

I actually tried to run an Otaku once, and after the second session I retired her. She was totally useless in the field, and therefore a liability to the other team members. Heck, if another character sneezed at her she’d take a serious wound. Where she was at her best was back with her tribe in the hardened bunker they had. The one thing, it’s not much fun to play a character who sits on her bum 80% of the session twiddling her thumbs waiting for the time she finally called upon to go into the matrix (which was often shortcut because a full matrix run took so much time and bored the other players). Otaku made great NPCs but not PCs unless the whole team was Otaku and it was a matrix mission.

The same holds true for Techonmancers. They are a poor concept for a PC on a regular team of runners considering the physical dangers out in the shadows. Yes, a mage needs to bond a sustaining focus. What’s that cost? 3 BPs for the spell slot, 6 BPs in resources for a power 3 sustaining focus, and 3 BPs to bind it for a total of 12 and now she has 3 IPs with no loss to her MA. 5 Karma, and she has that spell slot back. For a technomancer to do the same costs 32 BPs in resources and she loses 1 rating level to her Resonance. So to start with an effective resonance of 5 she needs to spend a total of 65 BPs to buy it at 6, (which also means she needs to submerge to get it back up to 6). This makes that Synaptic Booster 2 effectively cost her 57 BPs at the outset.

As to the chargen argument, I agree with Jaid, the character should be enjoyable to play at the outset and not 50 or more karma down the road. From my experience, surviving to get that Karma with only 1 IP is a pretty tall order. Yeah a Techno can control drones, but those drones won’t help her dodge the next burst from that Sammy when she’s already used her one meatworld IP up.

If you gone the drone route, why not detach yourself from the combat stage and send in the clowns then? So you can get face time up and to the "highly dangerous illegal activities commence here" line when people pull out the weapons that are not really concealable ratings, and send in a steel lynx instead?

Adepts are flat out crazy if they try to get their extra IPs and Stat Boosts from Magic as opposed to bioware.

Mages, well it's considered heresy here, but in a world where Wards are cheap, easy and very common using a spell to get their extra IPs and Stat Boosts isn't really that great of an idea either, even if you have a nice DM who doesn't believe in using the Focus Addiction Rules. (And that isn't even considering the problem of glowing like a christmas tree on the Astral.)

It also depends on the type of campaign you are running. We house-ruled sustaining spell focuses out a long time ago since we did not want mages to be as fast as samurais, and over time, the game theme changed so that high initiative - or, in SR4, many IPs - became not as needed anyway. We often have entire sessions without combat, or detailed combat, and when we do have combat, the street samurai shines. If you rarely have more than one important combat per evening, an edge point is easily spent as well.

Even in combat heavy campaigns, a focus on tactics and cover, trying to prevent the enemy from getting clear shots at your team (hack their smartlinks, hack the sprinklers and lighting system, send them false orders, etc.), may make high IPs less needed.

Of course, if you generally can't take cover and can't rely on the other team members taking down the enemies quickly, and can't rely on the opposition focussing on those threats instead of on you, then a high number of IPs might be needed to survive.

Drugs.

Take some cram, or jazz: cheap, essence-friendly and astrally inactive!

A technomancer hacking AR style does it by summoning a sprite and sicking it to the task. He doesn't do it himself, he talks to the matrix and the matrix does it for him. Not only is it a viable tactic, it's thematically cool and totally differentiates a technomancer from a hacker. And don't go saying that hackers get agents, so they're even. Sprites are much, much more than agents.

Maybe the question should be: Does every character need multiple IPs to survive a battle?

I am not convinced that this is the case if people use cover, tactics, and coordination and let the multi-IP characters shine.

I think we're saying they aren't supposed to. I'm saying they outsoure. Others are saying they stay away from combat. Others are saying you get the essence friendly high grade bioware and suck up a point of resonance loss, the same as a mage.

Face it, a technomancer is not just a weird-ass hacker. The play style is fundamentally different.

The problem is the assumption that everyone needs 3 IP's. The group we play in now everyone except the street sammy has 1 IP. The sammy only has 2. If you compare min maxed characters then yeah, the techno really sucks in the meat world. Thats because you've made him an uber specialist matrix hacker and everyone else has made awesome combat guys. If you all have well rounded characters then nobody would suck in one particular area. If you want to be a techno street sammy then get the bio and cyber and suck up the resonance loss. There is always karma to improve the character so he's the best at everything. If you want your starting characters to be the best everywhere play a 700bp game. You're starting characters. You should be ok everywhere and kinda good somewhere else.

You guys must play in a world where all the LoneStar officers don't keep Jazz in the glove compartment.

I rarely envision combat as some "quickdraw, shoot them dead in 3 seconds, don't waste any action on going prone, kneeling, or even seek cover" affair. So, I can see a lot of situations where people take cover, the hacker hacks while the rest keeps the opposition at bay, and then moves in coordination.

Plus something that all too often gets forgotten is that in Fourth Edition almost everyone will have a Dicepool of only 4-8 Dice before equipment modifiers so you don't really have to make Runners that roll buckets of Dice in order to survive and thrive.

And 2 IPs are easy to get, in my opinion 3 IPs aren't generally worth the extra effort unless your DM forgets the basic rules of the Sixth World and goes into "arms race mode" OR you really are playing a best-of-the-best-world-class Prime Runner campaign. (And quite frankly I find those rather boring most of the time.)

*Edit*

Hell in my campaigns most sec-guards have access to combat drugs, although of course not all of them are necessarily willing to take them, but that doesn't mean that 3 IPs are "must have", combat gets alot more interesting if you have to win on tactics as opposed to just getting to shoot more often.

I would just like to point out that it doesn't matter how many more IPs your enemy has than you... if you kill them on the first pass.

One houserule I thought I'd suggest: Let Overclocking give you an extra initiative pass when using AR that can only be used for matrix actions. Or, hell, you could make it it's own Submersion if you want. Name it Matrix Multi-tasking and call it a day. Combat Hackers would still be more flexible at AR hacking with wired reflexes, but at least it'd give TMs a way to be more effective 'trix side while still being aware of their surroundings.