Thank you for introducing the almighty "Shock Boot" to my game. Nothing makes getting stomped out by a troll worse, except being shocked into prolapse at the same time.



What? Flaming punches aren't realistic? Haven't you seen the muay thai documentary "Ong Bak"?

Thank you for realizing another issue with shock boots: Where are they discharged from? When I imagined them I thought it would be the boot tip, but I guess maybe the sole as well? Also, wouldnt walking on it cause the battery to run out too soon?


Tony Jaa is the man! Gasoline and magic are different things though.

Hm... there has to be some sort of control of how and when a particular shock-whatever gets discharged. I've always assumed it had some sort of accelerometer that wouldn't complete the circut until it passed a certain threshold.

But your point still stands, if you start running or, heaven forbid, stub your toe, does that mean it immediately discharges? I'd also hate to have you run through a puddle, immediately drain all 10 charges, and kill some poor homeless schmuck down the road.

Of course a simple PAN link would avoid all this but it might be a bit beyond the standard rules for this sort of gear.

Elemental strike does not mention the types of damage, the descriptions for the damage does. Elemental strike references pages 154-155 of SR4.
SR4, 154:
"Acid damage is treated as Physical damage and resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up)."
"Cold damage is treated as Physical damage and resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up)."
"Electrical damage is treated as Stun damage and resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up)—metallic armor, however, offers no protection."
SR4, 155:
"Treat Fire damage as Physical damage, but Impact armor only protects against it with half its value (round up)."

It also references pages 164-165 of Street Magic.
164, SM:
"Blast damage is treated as Physical damage and is resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up)."
"Treat the Ice effect as Cold damage (p. 154, SR4), except that objects or terrain affected will be encrusted with ice."
"Light damage is treated as Physical damage and is resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up)."
Metal doesn't specify its damage type, only, "Metal damage attacks are resisted with Impact armor."
165, SM:
"Sand damage is treated as Physical damage and is resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up)."
Smoke says, "The victim resists Stun as if from an inhalation vector toxin attack (see p. 244, SR4)."
"Sound damage is treated as Stun damage. Armor has no effect,"
"Water damage is treated as Physical damage and is resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up)."

You say it doesn't mention the damage it does, only that it does an elemental effect. The effects themselves (on the pages that it references) state the damage that they do. The elemental effects section for casting that you mentioned only references those same pages, and then goes on to expand on the secondary effects of the spells.

Elemental effects do not equal secondary effects. If they had intended for elemental strike to only have the secondary effects, the power should have been worded to state such. As it is, it is the elemental effects, which specify their damage types in their descriptions on the pages the power references.

Shrug. My way, using Killing Hands damage with elemental effects (or secondary elemental effects, if you prefer that wording) on top has very little problem with common sense explanations. I fully admit that I am not quite sure what the canon rules actually intend, but this seems to be the best route for my games (and pretty much every other game in which I have played).

I'm still wondering if you allow for adepts to then fire punch for stun damage, even if they might light the persons clothes on fire.

What's the problem with that? The punch does stun damage, then having their clothes lit of fire does physical damage.

Shock Boots? Well, i COULD see them, maybe...though they better be well insulated and very waterproof.

But If these ever get introduced in canon, I am introducing Laser Feet.

doesn't the cyber-foot-replacement have enough room to fit a small laser in there?
at least that eye-tool-laser system, but i think with a bit of tinkering the redline too *g*

And how about acid, cold, blast, ice, light, sand and water? Those all are supposed to do physical damage too.

I think, as a rule, anything with "shock" in the title better be waterproof and well insulated . Maybe I should start trying to pawn off cut rate shock gloves on my players...

Cut rate shock gloves:


Lionel Hutz, Salesman: Oh, yeaaaah! These shock gloves are perfect for your needs, and half price! Really, only missing a few useless components...


components being 'insulation' and 'safety' of course.

Yep, this is why I read DS. That's going into my campaign as an NPC glitch (or PC if they're stupid enough to buy cut rate electrical discharge devices).

A light rain begins to settle on the dreary Downtown alley. The ganger winds up for another punch of sparking hurt when a loud "KZT!" is heard and smoke rises from his now charred shock gloves. Crumpling to the ground in a twitching mess the PC's are reminded to shop smart and avoid bargain deals on mission essential gear.

Fire: It's not raging inferno hands, it's heat exhaustion damage.
Acid: ... uhm, the hallucinations tire you out?

@Cabral
... and the smoke ... it ... anyone got any brownies?
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So we can tell if all the fuss about shock gloves is really something to worry
about, how about a comparison, anyone know what the average damage a:

Human mage could cast (400bp)

Human adept could do (400bp)

Human samauri could do (400bp)


without min/maxing characteristics to an absurd level

thanks

Average for the mage means he can usually soak the drain of it down to 0? To 1? To 2? S or P drain?

Well 12-14 drain dice (5 att + 5 willpower + 2 focused conc. + 2 Cereberal) means 4-5DV resisted to zero on average. This means one hit kill mana/powerbolt are usually not an issue (since they are resisted by just Bod or Will)


Melee? Can go from 10DV to 16+DV (depending on the char). Have a bit bigger DP to shoot than sammys if they are focused for that.


7 agility + 4 skill + 2 smartwire = 13DP, usually hits with net hits. using an alpha (6P -1AP 2(3)RC) with grenades possible means lots and lots of damage. I very rarely miss or fail to kill/ko on first burst.

Sammy is by far the most efficient and generalized, but mages and adepts can do things they cant even imagine. Its a tradeoff either way.

Well, there are two problems.
1. Dealing stun damage is often more effective than physical damage. Stun tracks tend to be equal to or smaller than physical tracks. If armor applies, stun damage is often resisted with a lower armor rating.

2. Logic/Can of Worms: Stun Gloves deal damage by conducting an electric charge and gets it's AP from the limited insulation provided by standard armor. Because of that, you can't just add up the damage of the two attacks. That means the logical representation would be to resist each damage type seperately (with net hits only improving the damage of the standard strike, but armor applying to both damage types with seperate AP values). That adds a lot of dice rolling (over several attacks). I think that's a can of worms most people don't want to open. (Well, what about stick & shock, shouldn't you be resisting kinetic impact too?)

I order to avoid this issue, i changed the way that shock gloves work in my games....

there stat block is now Str/2+3 S no ap and effects as a tazer... no complaints yet!

Nice thinking. I think all the stun batons could use this treatment.

Regarding elemental effects and what does and doesn't count, DS came to a consensus in This Thread that Elemental Strike only adds the secondary effects, because you have no baseline for determining the base damage of the primary effect.

My original interpretation had been that a Magic 5 Adept was using the equivalent of Force 5 Blast damage when using Elemental strike, thus adding extra damage, knockdown and such to his physical strikes. DS struck this down and ruled that only the secondary effects applied, which I agreed with. Seems like that same ruling applies here as well.

Actually, all that was defeated in that thread was your misinterpretation of how the blast effect works. You believed it added +Force to your damage period. You were corrected that it only adds +Force to damage for purposes of comparing to body to determine knockdown.

No one said that the AP portion wouldn't work. (Except for me, because barrier attacks ignore the AP of the attack.)

The primary effects are still there.

You're right, Tarantula, I was corrected on that. I pointed out that thread because it was a discussion that ended up centering on the actual effects of Elemental Strike (Blast), which is appropriate to the topic being discussed here. I didn't link it because I somehow have gone insane and believe it's still horribly overpowered and such. Thanks for implying that though. 'Preciate it.

That said, as per that thread, only the Secondary Effects of the Blast element (moving things and enhanced knockdown) were being applied to the Elemental Strike (and none of the barrier-shattering or extra damage that I originally misinterpreted). I figure that same general ruling applies here to all the other ES options. Sorry for trying to add something constructive.

I wasn't trying to re-correct you on the issues.


They did not strike down the primary effects. The effects are, AP of -half, and +Force to damage for comparing to body for knockdown. GM discretion for breaking barriers with structure of less than force.

The discussion you linked didn't say any of those didn't apply. And in fact, most of the agreed that you would use magic in place of force, so you would still get the knockdown bonus you thought you would. I don't see how the discussion is relevant, as nothing decided in that thread is relevant to the discussion of the damage type (P or S) of the elemental strike.

I could buy the idea that shock gloves require more than a moment of contact - but wait, do stun batons require more than a moment of contact? and if they can do damage with a quick tap, then why can't shock gloves?

I'd rule, and my GM does, that if you're wearing shock gloves when you grab someone with a Subdual Attack, shock damage starts on your first successful attack, and continues each IP while you squeeze them for (STR in S) damage.

A structurally reinforced, impact-resistant glove or baton might cost more, but I can't imagine a 20X6 in which no one makes and sells them. Shock gauntlets should be a standard accessory for the various forms of heavy armor such as Full Body Armor and SWAT Armor, and they could easily have a reserve of more than 10 uses.

My bad, I thought the conversation included info on how to apply the elemental damage, what effects happened, and how you work the damage in question. Seemed relevant. I'll bow out of the thread on account of idiocy.

I did not call you an idiot Jhaiisiin. You don't need to insult yourself. It does include how to apply elemental damage, the effects, and how the damage in question is decided. What it also includes that wasn't in the old thread is whether the damage is S or P and fixed as the element type, or if the adept can decide whether it does P or S due to killing hands.