Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 05:04 PM
Okay, anybody who's known me for any length of time in association with
Shadowrun knows that I've had a real bug up my ass about heights and weights of critters and character races since the first edition. I've been fighting with them for a long, long time, and with SR4, I actually scored a minor victory of sorts. Rob asked me for heights and weights for the player races, and while they got doctored slightly between my handing them in and their publication, I still feel they're better and more realistic in this edition than we've ever gotten before.
I also provided heights and weights to Lars for the metavariants in
Runner's Companion, which survived more or less unscathed as I'd submitted them. Again for those who've known me for a long time, there's a reason I haven't been griping about the heights and weights in this edition.
My height and weight figures for critters didn't survive so well in the core book, though I did get a better (though not really accurate, IMO) weight for the sasquatch in there. Can't win them all.
All this being said, it should surprise no one that I originally had a height and weight chart for all the Infected critters in
Running Wild. It didn't survive the word count fight, and that's probably a good thing since no one else had done one for the hundreds of other critters appearing in the book. However, I'm typically a horrendous packrat if something is even a little bit important to me, and this certainly qualifies. I've included the six sentients that the Infected stem from for reference.
CODE
Critter Height (cm) Weight (kg) Height (in) Weight (lb)
Bandersnatch 300 300 118 660
Banshee 190 72 75 158
Chupacabras 120 45 47 99
Drop Bear 75 10 29 22
Dwarf 120 54 47 119
Dzoo-noo-qua 250 393 98 865
Elf 190 80 75 176
Fomóraig 285 480 112 1,056
Ghoul (Dwarf) 120 63 47 138
Ghoul (Elf) 190 93 75 204
Ghoul (Human) 175 93 69 199
Ghoul (Ork) 190 148 75 327
Ghoul (Sasquatch) 300 348 118 766
Ghoul (Troll) 250 348 98 766
Gnawer 120 63 47 139
Goblin 120 45 47 100
Grendel 200 176 79 387
Harvester 190 106 75 232
Human 175 78 69 172
Jabberwock 300 300 118 660
Loup-garou 175 106 69 233
Mutaqua 250 441 98 970
Nosferatu 175 70 69 154
Ork 190 128 75 282
Sasquatch 300 300 118 660
Troll 250 300 98 660
Vampire 175 78 69 172
Wendigo 230 178 90 392
Ancient History
Apr 10 2010, 05:07 PM
Man, those sasquatch-Infected look pretty anorexic next to those troll-Infected. Bandersnatch needs a sammich, badly.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 05:27 PM
Sasquatch in general are anorexic, and I brought this up to Rob in the SR4 playtesting. Trolls are lighter than I'd first figured them, too. I was overruled; it happens. On the whole, I was victorious more than I was defeated, so I'll take the small victories where I find them.
For edification, here's what I'd originally presented for SR4 (limited to just humans, trolls, elves, dwarfs, orks, and sasquatches.
CODE
Critter Height (cm) Weight (kg) Height (in) Weight (lb)
Dwarf 120 54 47 119
Elf 190 80 75 176
Human 175 78 69 172
Ork 190 128 75 282
Sasquatch 280 475 110 1,045
Troll 250 335 98 737
Just for further edification, here's what the Infected in question (just the troll and sasquatch expressions, since the other four metaspecies came out as I'd presented them) look this way with these non-canon weights and heights (you'll notice that my sasquatches are shorter than the ones in SR4, in keeping with the tendency to have reduced some heights in the name of sanity).
CODE
Critter Height (cm) Weight (kg) Height (in) Weight (lb)
Bandersnatch 280 475 110 1,045
Dzoo-noo-qua 250 439 98 965
Fomóraig 285 760 112 1,672
Ghoul (Sasquatch) 280 551 110 1,212
Ghoul (Troll) 250 389 98 855
Jabberwock 280 475 110 1,045
Mutaqua 250 492 98 1,083
Sengir
Apr 10 2010, 05:50 PM
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 10 2010, 06:07 PM)
Man, those sasquatch-Infected look pretty anorexic next to those troll-Infected. Bandersnatch needs a sammich, badly.
The Wendigo looks even worse...and some percent of the weight will still be hair. Poor things
PS: Are sasquatch ghouls canon or just something that got cut in development? I always thought krieger only infected metahumans.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 05:54 PM
Sasquatch ghouls got cut a long time ago, probably in terms of post-proposal discussion and assignment. I included them for the GMs who like the idea of sasquatch ghouls, though; some GMs don't restrict Krieger like that. Definitely not canon.
Wendigos anorexic? I personally don't think so, but I'm biased. I'll go back and look over my math after lunch.
Sengir
Apr 10 2010, 06:07 PM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 06:54 PM)
Wendigos anorexic?
Compared to trolls and their infected counterparts
I personally imagine wendigos to be far more massive than the average ork, not just proportionally larger.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 06:25 PM
Yeah, it's not out of the question that I forgot that wendigos do get some actual bulk from the virus, not just magical enhancement to the strength. With that in mind, I went back to my spreadsheet and added an bit on for sheer, scary bulk; that raises the wendigo to 178 kg. Better?
EDIT: Went in and changed it from 155 to 178 in the initial post. Once I thought about it, Sengir was right and they should have been more massive.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 10 2010, 06:25 PM
Any chance we can get this in inches and pounds? I mean I'm not retarded or anything but when someone gives a height in cm I just kinda blink alot.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 10 2010, 01:25 PM)
Any chance we can get this in inches and pounds? I mean I'm not retarded or anything but when someone gives a height in cm I just kinda blink alot.
Sure, though it'll probably be tonight before I do it. About to go on a day trip with the family.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 10 2010, 06:35 PM
No worries. I hate looking dumb so I did it myself. lol
Is this right?
Critter_______Height (cm)__Weight (kg)_____Height (feet/inches)_____Weight in pounds
Dwarf_________120______54 ________________3ft 11in_____________119
Elf____________190______80________________6ft 3in_______________176
Human________175______78_________________5ft 9in______________171
Ork___________190______128________________6ft 3in______________282
Sasquatch______280______475_______________9ft 2in_______________1047
Troll___________250______335_______________8ft 2in_______________738
Looks a touch off.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 06:38 PM
Look about right, though the formatting's a pain. That's why I throw CODE tags around mine; helps keep the columns lined up. Also depends on rounding; the figures I've got in my spreadsheet for this are rounded off a bit (I've got 1,045 pounds for the sasquatch, for instance). I'll transfer it all to a chart once I get back from the treasure hunt with my family.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 10 2010, 06:42 PM
Yeah I kinda add hocked it. I'm just waking up.
Humans look a touch small. But then I'm 6'3" and 250lbs
Sasquatch are half again as tall but 5 times as heavy?
And I knew trolls were big and thick, but a touch over a third taller and more than 3 times the weight?
I'm not really arguing it. I guess i"m just saying that's a bit more than I kinda envisioned them in my head.
Sengir
Apr 10 2010, 06:46 PM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 06:25 PM)
With that in mind, I went back to my spreadsheet and added an bit on for sheer, scary bulk; that raises the wendigo to 178 kg. Better?
Yep, far better scaryness
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 06:55 PM
World's tallest human on record was
Robert Wadlow, who was 8'11" and weighed 490 pounds. He was a stick figure compared to a troll, and yet his weight was the canon weight for trolls, and just about 3 inches shorter, in SR3. I did a rather extensive article on this subject in
The Shadowrun Supplemental #13, which you might find interesting. I did a good bit of explaining about the square-cube law and how I arrived at the weights in that article. The change of edition might change where some numbers fit in there, but the same basic logic is used to come to the numbers I've come up with.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 06:57 PM
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 10 2010, 01:42 PM)
Humans look a touch small. But then I'm 6'3" and 250lbs
I'm also 6'3" or so, but that 175 cm figure is a worldwide average. Americans can really skew the average.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 10 2010, 07:28 PM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 01:55 PM)
World's tallest human on record was
Robert Wadlow, who was 8'11" and weighed 490 pounds. He was a stick figure compared to a troll, and yet his weight was the canon weight for trolls, and just about 3 inches shorter, in SR3. I did a rather extensive article on this subject in
The Shadowrun Supplemental #13, which you might find interesting. I did a good bit of explaining about the square-cube law and how I arrived at the weights in that article. The change of edition might change where some numbers fit in there, but the same basic logic is used to come to the numbers I've come up with.
First off.. WOW... that's.... alot of math and alot of work. lol. I will say that I did think the books were a touch short and light for things. But then I am guilty of going by my own egocentric bias. People in the US ARE taller (( and often quite quite heavier)) than 'World averages'. So part of my misconception is in there.
You did alot of work for that article. A bit more math than I personally would have put into it. Must have been a pet peeve or something. Really makes you wonder about the citys in Shadowrun. Where you have to build things to hold people of 700+ pounds. I know this is taken into effect a little in the lifestyle sections and stuff, but I can say I didn't really think it out THAT far.
In our games I AM careful with my trolls. Taking their weight into account for stuff, like... crawling out on branches or fire escapes. Crossing bridges or pipes or stuff. But even with knowing they were BIG (( Being tall I can play Tall fine)) and HEAVY (( also pretty heavy for a human)) I don't think I really contemplated them as 700 to 1000lbs on average.
Being honest I probably put most of my trolls at about 450-500lbs.. in my head.
Your math and article is good though. If anything... still a bit low to me. Growing up in the southern US.. I consider the average male about 5'10 to 6' Your article has them at 5'7" so.. my math would need to scale up a few inches, but nothing terribly.
Does make you sit back and think.
I appreciate the work you put in and the DEEP thought.
Where can I find Shadowrun Supplimentals? apperently there are at least 13 of them. lol I'd love to get them and read though more stuff like this.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 10 2010, 07:35 PM
The Shadowrun Supplemental. And yeah, the weight thing's a pet peeve. I'm not much of a gearhead, but that's one of the things I make an exception for.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 10 2010, 07:53 PM
Thank you very much, sir.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 11 2010, 03:45 PM
I feel like I should point out that all of these heights and weights are for baseline metaspecies that get Infected; I haven't run the numbers with the metavariants from Runner's Companion yet. That would probably be an interesting exercise....
Patrick Goodman
Apr 11 2010, 03:45 PM
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 10 2010, 01:28 PM)
First off.. WOW... that's.... alot of math and alot of work.
This is why God invented the spreadsheet.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 11 2010, 05:45 PM
I've edited the initial posts with additional colums for height in inches (you can figure out how many feet that is on your own; I got tired of typing
) and weight in pounds. Later today, I'll do charts for all the Infected metavariants.
Whipstitch
Apr 12 2010, 01:09 AM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 01:57 PM)
I'm also 6'3" or so, but that 175 cm figure is a worldwide average. Americans can really skew the average.
Americans aren't actually appreciably taller than other first world nations, since height is in large part a function of nutrition. In any case, you're unusually tall. In 1980 you would be taller than 96% of American males, and height has actually gone down ever so slightly since the '50s. In reality, most US men are actually in the 5'7"-5'10" range-- once you're 5'10" you're taller than nearly 60% of all US men. People 6 foot and up skew the average upwards slightly, rendering the majority of men (Like myself; I'm just a shade under 5'9") "below average". That's in part because it's actually somewhat hard for men to get much shorter than 5'6" without nutrition and economics becoming a factor yet people who are NBA tall can scrape 7 feet.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 12 2010, 01:15 AM
Yeah but you look at nations like India, which aren't' exactly3rd world and their average male height is like 5'5' or 5'6" or so. It's just different expressions being expressed and chosen over 100s of years.
Women like the tall men. They've done numerous studies. Women will take a tall man that makes less money over a short millionaire.
Whipstitch
Apr 12 2010, 01:18 AM
Poverty is a huge factor in India. It makes their distribution all wonky. India's such a big country with such a complex history that it's a bit of a nightmare to make remotely accurate approximations about it.
Anyway, yes, height has some selection advantages, but ultimately people mate for various reasons with who is available rather than always hold out for a 6'6" Prince Charming. Ultimately, being tall enough isn't the same thing as being as tall as possible, which is why people on the end of both scales are outliers.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 12 2010, 01:30 AM
But heights are still lower across the board. From the untouchables to the billionaires there. They're not 'all" poor.
Whipstitch
Apr 12 2010, 01:47 AM
They don't have to all be poor for malnutrition to skew the numbers lower. Look, I'm not saying that if everyone had the same meals everyone would all be the same height or some such nonsense. Some populations are shorter, although the distribution patterns tend to be closer together than a cursory glance at the average might imply. But India is a pretty poor example given that the men who live there average around 5'7" despite being ranked as having the 2nd worst malnutrition problem on the planet by the World Bank. There's people living there in crushing poverty and there's people there who aren't, and some of the latter group have people who are either markedly above average or are well within the common US distribution pattern. For example, Kal Penn, the Indian American actor is almost painfully average for the US at 5'9" and the Indian professional wrestler Dalip Singh is a 7 footer. You'd honestly be better off citing the Japanese or something.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 12 2010, 02:02 AM
My point was that Americans WERE in fact taller than the world average. Not much deeper than that.
And yeah. Asians on average, are a bit shorter than Americans on Average. But then alot of what you said about India can be said about China as well. Just different expressions.
Whipstitch
Apr 12 2010, 02:29 AM
I understand that, which is why I went ahead and built upon your earlier statement since I thought it painted a bit of an incomplete picture. Yes, Americans are taller than average, but they're suddenly not so unusual once you only compare them to other nations with a similar standard of living-- Canadians, Australians and the Dutch are all above average as well. Ethnic groups from poor areas have this funny habit of attaining higher average heights within a generation or two of acquiring better health care, sanitation and food availability. I mean, hell, I'm of Mexican descent and I'm just barely below 5'9" and I'm the shortest male in my extended family by far, aside from my grandfather who was only 5'4" and grew up in poverty. All of my cousins and uncles are 6 foot plus and the average height of a Mexican American is a full 3 inches taller than that of an average Mexican living in Mexico.
This is not to say that Mexico is secretly a nation of malnourished giants or something, but nevertheless living conditions are something I keep in mind when deciding just how big some of my NPCs (particularly orks and trolls) might be. Perhaps metatypes are slightly more homogeneous than standard humans are, but it's not inconceivable to think that a well-fed troll with the right genes could be REALLY fraggin' big. After all, many orks and trolls come of age while squatting out in the Barrens. Healthcare and three squares a day just isn't Shadowrun, so it's actually a bit possible that fate is selling the trogs short.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 12 2010, 02:32 AM
Yeah if you follow the link in Patricks post a page back, he has an article on that exact sort of thing, and if you read though it fully he has rules for basicly. 'Tall trolls' or 'short orcs' and such in there.
Lots of numbers but it's well thought out and well put together.
Machiavelli
Apr 12 2010, 06:55 AM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 06:57 PM)
I'm also 6'3" or so, but that 175 cm figure is a worldwide average. Americans can really skew the average.
MUAHAHAHA...yeah right. Because Americans are the only well-fed industrialized humans in the world.^^ Does continents like europe exist on US-maps or are they just "white spots" with the marking of "little people"?^^
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 12 2010, 07:35 AM
When you compare them to other places they can skew the average.
Patrick wasn't saying that we're the only well fed industrialized humans in the world. Just that we can blow an average.
Average American Male over 20 years of age is 5 foot 9 and a half inches
Argentina 5'3"
Bahrain 5'5"
Gambia 5'6"
India 5'5" (( a bit shorter than I guessed))
Indonesia 5'2"
Iraq 5'5"
Japan 4'11"
Malaysia 5'5"
Mexico 5'4"
Nigeria 5'4 and a half
Peru 5'4" and a half
Philippines 5'3" and half
Vietnam 5'4"
So it's not like we're short. Humorously enough, we're not the tallest.
Denmark claims 5'11"
Finland 5'11"
Germany claims 5'11 and a half. but that's self reported. And we know guy inches aren't quite the same things that show up on rulers.
Sweden sports a nice 5'11" and a half.
So we're not the tallest. But we're on up there. There's ALOT more shorter than there is taller. With only 4 or 5 countries that come in above us.
Larsine
Apr 12 2010, 07:49 AM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 10 2010, 08:57 PM)
Americans can really skew the average.
Especially when it comes to weight
Lars
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 12 2010, 08:11 AM
*grins* I think I mentioned that. lol
toturi
Apr 12 2010, 08:51 AM
I think this discussion is also pertinent with respect to other physical aspects. Depending on how you peg your "average" benchmarks, you might find that people with 1s in their attributes are not necessarily physical cripples.
Bull
Apr 12 2010, 10:37 AM
QUOTE (Larsine @ Apr 12 2010, 03:49 AM)
Especially when it comes to weight
Lars
Lets not talk about that.
I'm 6 foot even. ANd I'm about average for most of the guys I hang with. A couple shorter, a couple taller, many around my height.
But as I said, the less said about weight, the better. *sigh*
Bull
Patrick Goodman
Apr 12 2010, 01:46 PM
QUOTE (Larsine @ Apr 12 2010, 02:49 AM)
Especially when it comes to weight
Yup.
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 12 2010, 05:55 PM
I've always thought it was fun to play stereotype breakers. But not to the point that I never play to the stereotype. Sometimes it seems like people never want to play the 'norm'.
A 'tallish' (( relatively) Dwarf, or a "Short Troll" or the like can be fun now and then. Just don't get annoying about it. I've played two Orcs that had full body dye jobs to have green skin.
Whipstitch
Apr 12 2010, 07:16 PM
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 12 2010, 02:35 AM)
Patrick wasn't saying that we're the only well fed industrialized humans in the world. Just that we can blow an average.
Yeah, it's not like what Patrick was saying necessarily implies that he doesn't pay attention to the rest of the world. It's kind of a stretch to flame him for such an implication when you consider that he said what he said precisely because he was looking at global numbers. My earlier comments were simply to make clear that the height of Americans is a factor of our environment as much as anything-- It's tough to guess with any accuracy whether a caucasian or an african will be taller if they both happen to be from the same part of Seattle. It's a good distinction to keep in mind when you're bsing up some numbers for Joe NPC.
Patrick Goodman
Apr 16 2010, 03:37 AM
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 11 2010, 09:45 AM)
I feel like I should point out that all of these heights and weights are for baseline metaspecies that get Infected; I haven't run the numbers with the metavariants from Runner's Companion yet. That would probably be an interesting exercise....
So...metavariants. Let me tell ya, that's a lot of numbers to run, and when you run those numbers and then SCREW UP YOUR SPREADSHEET and have to repair lots of cell references...it's not fun sometimes. But the results may be worth it.
First, here's the average heights and weights for the metavariants, with inch and pound conversions for the metric-challenged. Next post will be the Infected versions (and there's a truckload); those will have to wait until I finish formatting the table for forum posting.
CODE
Race Height (cm) Weight (kg) Height (in) Weight (lb)
Cyclops 270 421 106 926
Dryad 175 63 69 139
Fomori 235 224 92 493
Giant 300 467 118 1,027
Gnome 80 37 31 81
Haruman 120 49 47 108
Hobgogblin 180 98 71 216
Koborokuru 110 42 43 92
Menehune 110 42 43 92
Minotaur 240 265 94 583
Nartaki 175 86 69 189
Night One 190 80 75 176
Ogre 170 101 67 222
Oni 190 128 75 282
Satyr 160 69 63 152
Wakyambi 230 145 90 319
Xapiri Thëpë 170 57 67 125
Patrick Goodman
Apr 17 2010, 12:46 AM
Okay, there a couple of lessons I learned in the course of this particular part of my exercise.
1. Save more frequently. That way, when you mess something up, it's easier to fix.
2. Cell references can be fragile. You'd think after all these years I'd remember this sorta thing, but occasionally....
3. Sorting in spreadsheets can be bad. See #2 above.
Anyway, I think I've got all the various permutations of metaspecies, metavariants, and Infected expressions dealt with now, so I hope that this proves useful to someone. Any questions, as always, please feel free to ask.
CODE
Critter Height (cm) Weight (kg) Height (in) Weight (lb)
Banshee (Dryad) 175 57 69 125
Banshee (Night One) 190 72 75 158
Banshee (Wakyambi) 230 131 90 287
Banshee (Xapiri Thëpë) 170 51 67 113
Dzoo-noo-qua (Cyclops) 270 552 106 1,213
Dzoo-noo-qua (Fomori) 235 293 92 646
Dzoo-noo-qua (Giant) 300 612 118 1,346
Dzoo-noo-qua (Minotaur) 240 113 94 248
Fomóraig (Cyclops) 308 674 121 1,482
Fomóraig (Fomori) 268 358 105 788
Fomóraig (Giant) 342 747 134 1,644
Fomóraig (Minotaur) 274 424 108 933
Ghoul (Cyclops) 270 488 106 1,074
Ghoul (Dryad) 175 73 69 161
Ghoul (Fomori) 235 260 92 572
Ghoul (Giant) 300 542 118 1,192
Ghoul (Gnome) 80 43 31 94
Ghoul (Haruman) 120 57 47 125
Ghoul (Hobgoblin) 180 114 71 250
Ghoul (Koborokuru) 110 49 43 107
Ghoul (Menehune) 110 49 43 107
Ghoul (Minotaur) 240 307 94 676
Ghoul (Nartaki) 175 100 69 219
Ghoul (Night One) 190 93 75 204
Ghoul (Ogre) 170 117 67 258
Ghoul (Oni) 190 148 75 327
Ghoul (Satyr) 160 80 63 176
Ghoul (Wakyambi) 230 168 90 370
Ghoul (Xapiri Thëpë) 170 66 67 145
Gnawer (Gnome) 80 43 31 95
Gnawer (Haruman) 120 57 47 126
Gnawer (Koborokuru) 110 49 43 108
Gnawer (Menehune) 110 49 43 108
Goblin (Gnome) 80 31 31 68
Goblin (Haruman) 120 41 47 91
Goblin (Koborokuru) 110 35 43 78
Goblin (Menehune) 110 35 43 78
Grendel (Hobgoblin) 189 134 74 295
Grendel (Ogre) 179 138 70 304
Grendel (Oni) 200 175 78 386
Grendel (Satyr) 168 95 66 208
Harvester (Dryad) 175 83 69 183
Harvester (Night One) 190 106 75 232
Harvester (Wakyambi) 230 191 90 421
Harvester (Xapiri Thëpë) 170 75 67 166
Loup-garou (Nartaki) 175 117 69 257
Mutaqua (Cyclops) 270 619 106 1,362
Mutaqua (Fomori) 235 329 92 724
Mutaqua (Giant) 300 686 118 1,510
Mutaqua (Minotaur) 240 390 94 857
Nosferatu (Nartaki) 175 77 69 170
Vampire (Nartaki) 175 86 69 189
Wendigo (Hobgoblin) 218 136 86 300
Wendigo (Ogre) 206 141 81 309
Wendigo (Oni) 230 178 90 392
Wendigo (Satyr) 194 96 76 211
Pepsi Jedi
Apr 17 2010, 02:04 AM
I'd like to give a formal thank you, for the time and effort put into this.
Thanks man!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please
click here.