Dumpshock Forums > House Rules : Programs not replacing attributes

thorya

Mar 21 2012, 08:46 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 21 2012, 04:41 PM)

We generally compare Program vs. Progra,. If you have a Rating 5 Program, and you are going up against a Rating 8 MilSpec Installation, then you are at a -3 DP. It is a direct comparison vs. the relevant software involved in the test.

And yes, Logic is Highly important in this regard, thoguh software may be able to help you if you are running top of the line programs against Midrange targets.

We don't play with Unwired, so our programs cap out at Rating 6. But yeah, keeping programs in there as a bonus is much more effective than hit caps.

Warlordtheft

Mar 21 2012, 08:46 PM

You could also to avoid dice bloat go with Hacking + Logic + Program ratiing - opposing program rating (what ever that might be).

Yerameyahu

Mar 21 2012, 08:52 PM

Right, well that's what TJ and Nath mentioned ('like Reach').

Haha, Warlordtheft, your earlier post is basically the worst-case scenario! Simply put, Logic doesn't affect hacking in SR4 (standard), because hacking in SR4 (standard) isn't like chess or crossword puzzles. You can certainly change that if you prefer, but that doesn't make it 'wrong'.

snowRaven

Mar 21 2012, 08:54 PM

One way to give technomancers some love if you use Logic for Hackers is to link all technomancer hacking skills to Resonance (Since the technomancer-vesions of the skills are different from the 'normal' versions anyway). It'll have a negative impact on techno's with low Resonance, though...

thorya

Mar 21 2012, 08:57 PM

The only reason I assigned DP modifiers to the program ratings is because not all tests with programs are opposed and I wanted the ratings to have some meaning even for those. Otherwise, I think the 'Reach' rule is very effective as a houserule.

Yerameyahu

Mar 21 2012, 09:03 PM

Yeah, I like what you did there. You can also just generalize it (like, +Rating/2). In the end, the only questions are 'what relative weight should X, Y, and Z have?' and 'how messy can you let the rules be?'.

For example, coming from the other side, you could just *add* a bonus from Logic (e.g., Logic/2), or do something like thorya's ± system (Logic 1 = -2, Logic 3 = 0, etc.). They're all equally valid, and how good they are depends on your group.

--
For technomancers, you *can* also let them use the standard rules (relying on CFs).

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Mar 21 2012, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 21 2012, 02:57 PM)

The only reason I assigned DP modifiers to the program ratings is because not all tests with programs are opposed and I wanted the ratings to have some meaning even for those. Otherwise, I think the 'Reach' rule is very effective as a houserule.

That makes sense... However, if they are unopposed, then you get the full rating of the Software. Just like Reach against some one with No Reach.

It is indeed...

Yerameyahu

Mar 21 2012, 10:15 PM

As with any house rule, the GM will need to pay attention, though. It may be that doing as you say, TJ, results in some big balance shifts in some cases. (Anyone who tries, let us know?)

Thanee

Mar 22 2012, 12:00 AM

- Misread -

phlapjack77

Mar 22 2012, 02:26 AM

QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 22 2012, 04:54 AM)

One way to give technomancers some love if you use Logic for Hackers is to link all technomancer hacking skills to Resonance (Since the technomancer-vesions of the skills are different from the 'normal' versions anyway). It'll have a negative impact on techno's with low Resonance, though...

As it should have a negative impact, I would think. Udoshi's house rules for Technomancers make a lot of sense.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 05:25 AM

Thanee, he said dice cap, not hit cap.

Midas

Mar 22 2012, 06:29 AM

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 21 2012, 03:51 PM)

It has a ton of linked skills, yes, but none that are useful to a hacker. And an "epic" hacker would be better off with a Logic of 1. Slamm-O, assuming that he has a high Logic, would get toasted easily by anyone with the same amount of Karma/BP, because they would have started off superior to him (having spent their points on stuff that wasn't Logic) and just gotten better from there.

@JohnathanC
While I understand your frustration that high Logic hackers and low Logic script kiddies are functionally the same under the standard rules, you are overstating your case. The optional rules are there, give them a try, or even try the house rule suggested by the OP.

Your assertion that Slamm-O somehow "wasted" his valuable BP on high Logic is laughable. It seems from your comments that you do not understand what roleplaying is. People will number-crunch to various degrees during CharGen, but playing a high Logic hacker is a completely different animal to playing a low Logic script kiddie. Slamm-O would not have 1/10 as much respect from the hacker community at large as if he were a drooling Logic 1 moron.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 21 2012, 07:37 PM)

I have issues with players submitting/playing functionally incompetant characters (Stat 1 Attributes) because it is mechanically okay to do so. That does not fly with me.

Quoted for truth.

NiL_FisK_Urd

Mar 22 2012, 09:18 AM

There is another role that is totally replaceable with money - the street sam. Just get one(many) decent combat drone(s), a R5 commlink w/ simsense accelerator, R10 Command (optimization 5), a Skillwire System 5 w/ Expert System, a simsense booster, a Nanohive w/ Limbic Nanites*, qualia, synch, a focus reality amplifier, a R4 Tacnet (w/ Sensor Drones), and pirate all relevant skillsofts (R4 w/ Pluscode 3)

-> You have a Combat Drone w/ 16 dice for everything combat related (20 with Tacnet)

*to counter the stupid drone perception rules

StConstantine

Mar 22 2012, 09:42 AM

QUOTE

There is another role that is totally replaceable with money - the street sam. Just get one(many) decent combat drone(s), a R5 commlink w/ simsense accelerator, R10 Command (optimization 5), a Skillwire System 5 w/ Expert System, a simsense booster, a Nanohive w/ Limbic Nanites*, qualia, synch, a focus reality amplifier, a R4 Tacnet (w/ Sensor Drones), and pirate all relevant skillsofts (R4 w/ Pluscode 3)

And hope to god no one thought to bring emp or a decent hacker

UmaroVI

Mar 22 2012, 10:40 AM

If your definition of "replaceable" is "replaceable with an enormous pile of nuyen," you can quite literally take a random bum with all 1s in his physical attributes off the street, load him up with 'ware, and be outright better than a starting street samurai. Shadowrun works like that and is supposed to work like that; money=power.

Thanee

Mar 22 2012, 11:19 AM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 06:25 AM)

Thanee, he said dice cap, not hit cap.

Ahh... my bad! Thank you!

Bye
Thanee

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 02:21 PM

Yeah, I made the same mistake earlier.

Warlordtheft

Mar 22 2012, 02:39 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 21 2012, 03:52 PM)

Right, well that's what TJ and Nath mentioned ('like Reach').

Haha, Warlordtheft, your earlier post is basically the worst-case scenario! Simply put, Logic doesn't affect hacking in SR4 (standard), because hacking in SR4 (standard) isn't like chess or crossword puzzles. You can certainly change that if you prefer, but that doesn't make it 'wrong'.

I'm just throwing ideas out there. I'd like to have logic play a part in hacking (so there is a RAW reason to have a high logic rather than just fluff), but the only reason now is programming and electronics. I've tried the other route and found it to be sadly lacking in exploitation, and the general fact that it kinda of became he who has the highest program rating wins.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 02:39 PM

As a response to people who claim that I am overstating my case, I would like to introduce you to Herpa D. Derp, the greatest Hacker alive (who isn't even all that optimized, because it's 2AM and I am tired). He rolls 17 dice when hacking into a system with Exploit. He is a drooling moron who probably can't even *spell* Matrix, but he is better at hacking than any Logic 5 character would be at chargen, and is probably more useful to his team as well.

[ Spoiler ]

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 02:50 PM

And I still don't see how that's at all relevant. You have to defend the idea that a hacker not needing logic is bad per se, not that it's possible to make a hacker without logic. First of all, we all already know that.

You might as well say that any player who buys his PC Knowledge skills is 'ruining' the PC. Second, you could easily move some of those points you've placed in 'useless' things (skills, weapons, etc.) to boost Logic or get some 'ware to reshuffle his Attribs.

I dunno, Warlordtheft, it's not like Skill isn't half the DP. But yes, there are various ways to make Logic matter. Especially if you're not blinded by script-kiddie racism and the need to punish.

thorya

Mar 22 2012, 02:56 PM

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't that character have 640 BP in active skills alone? And you're upset that he's more powerful than a starting PC?

Yeah, a character built with what 800BP should be freaking awesome and should be better than any PC at Chargen.

I don't have unwired, so I'm not actually sure how his programs stack up, but I suspect based on what other people have said that a high logic hacker with software would be able to be him in the long run.

Edit: Oh, you listed all skills you could default on. Well, that's confusing.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 03:08 PM

No, the weird output he's using apparently includes Defaulted ratings. Those programs *do* all suck, though.

But it's just irrelevant either way: shock!, people can build good/bad characters? Adding logic would only change the character by a few BP (20-40, because who hard-caps?).

The actual point is that a hacker without logic is *not* significantly better than 'Herpa Derp'. The BP change is small, and he's not spending that extra BP efficiently to be a much better hacker (esp. constrained by chargen rules).

As a side issue: Logic 1 simply isn't that low. It's 1-2 dice lower than average, and Logic usually caps around 6-7 anyway (unlike Agility, Strength, or Body, which tend to go way above 6). Even if you used an optional/house rule to use Logic instead of Program, the 'moron/retard' hacker would only be a few dice behind. He'd definitely want to have more dice, but the difference wouldn't be crippling. It hardly seems worth all the disdain and passion.

Warlordtheft

Mar 22 2012, 03:33 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 10:50 AM)

I dunno, Warlordtheft, it's not like Skill isn't half the DP. But yes, there are various ways to make Logic matter. Especially if you're not blinded by script-kiddie racism and the need to punish.

I've been GMing SR4 for 3 years running now, did SR2 for 6, maybe 1 session of 3rd and 1st Ed probably played for 3 (basicall since SR came out). I have yet to kill a PC for munchkinism, though I'd add most of people I play(ed) with knew when they were crossing the line and took my suggestions.

In shadowrun, the thing to remember most is that buying agricultural real estate is dirt cheap.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 04:00 PM

Agreed. My comment was meant to imply that 'you're one of the good ones'.

Most rules issues are very subtle, but people get disproportionately worked up over them.

Warlordtheft

Mar 22 2012, 04:11 PM

THe other area is that if you use SOTA on him he will be spending all of his hard earned cash trying to keep his programs up to date. A high logic character can speend his downtime easily updating his stuff.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 04:14 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 06:50 AM)

And I still don't see how that's at all relevant. You have to defend the idea that a hacker not needing logic is bad per se, not that it's possible to make a hacker without logic. First of all, we all already know that.

You might as well say that any player who buys his PC Knowledge skills is 'ruining' the PC. Second, you could easily move some of those points you've placed in 'useless' things (skills, weapons, etc.) to boost Logic or get some 'ware to reshuffle his Attribs.

I dunno, Warlordtheft, it's not like Skill isn't half the DP. But yes, there are various ways to make Logic matter. Especially if you're not blinded by script-kiddie racism and the need to punish.

I was kind of sleep-deprived, and didn't edit the program's output (for the record, I was using Chummer...it'd be nice if there were more output options). The problem, again, is that making a "smart" Hacker who is equally good at hacking (17 dice on Exploit) would require you to make the hacker useless at everything else (say goodbye to that Agility/Reaction). By making a complete moron, you get to be an incredible hacker who *also* is better at shooting people than the smart guy. What does the smart guy get to do?

Well, if you need automotive repairs, I guess he's your guy. Most 'runner teams would rather have the drek-hot hacker who dances between bullets, though. Even if he is a drooling moron.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 04:19 PM

Yeah, a lot depends on the piracy and coding rules in play.

Does anyone feel like recapping the various solutions, or are you bored with the topic?

Type 1: (Logic + Skill); Programs contribute to hit- or dice-caps; alternatively, programs limit Logic and/or Skill separately ('only as good as your tools')?
+ Simple, no DP creep.
– General cap drawbacks, esp. for hit-caps; messes with Technos.

Type 2: (Logic + Skill + Programs), with varying weight; +Logic/2, +Program/2, Program-as-Reach, Program (or Logic) giving a ±N.
+ Simple, lots of control over relative importance; doesn't mess as much with Technos.
– DP creep, more complex

--
JonathanC, I simply don't think you've demonstrated that. For one thing, I don't see that the 'smart' hacker has to be useless at everything, though you keep claiming that. Again, it's simply not that many BP for not a very big dice difference. Second, why do you suddenly care about shooting people, when you were talking about ignoring anything non-hacking before? Why is shooting people preferable to First Aid, Medicine, and all the tech skills? Perhaps that's true for *your* runner team, but I don't think it's at all safe to generalize.

UmaroVI

Mar 22 2012, 04:37 PM

Hardware in particular is a really good skill, because it's not possible to reliably bypass maglocks without a good hardware skill (yes, Maglock passkeys/sequencers, but you still need to be able to handle anti-tamper systems which you need hardware for).

The funny thing is that while you can make a script-kiddie, you don't have to and it's not necessarily better. Hackers already want Log-linked skill boosters (PuSHeD, Encephalon, NeoCortical). Once you have those for hacking, it makes sense to also be the person who covers other logic-linked skills because you're already getting a bonus to them. First Aid and Hardware in particular are invaluable.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 04:40 PM

Exactly. So, does having that *option* make the game less fun, or more fun?

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 08:19 AM)

Yeah, a lot depends on the piracy and coding rules in play.

Does anyone feel like recapping the various solutions, or are you bored with the topic?

Type 1: (Logic + Skill); Programs contribute to hit- or dice-caps; alternatively, programs limit Logic and/or Skill separately ('only as good as your tools')?
+ Simple, no DP creep.
– General cap drawbacks, esp. for hit-caps; messes with Technos.

Type 2: (Logic + Skill + Programs), with varying weight; +Logic/2, +Program/2, Program-as-Reach, Program (or Logic) giving a ±N.
+ Simple, lots of control over relative importance; doesn't mess as much with Technos.
– DP creep, more complex

--
JonathanC, I simply don't think you've demonstrated that. For one thing, I don't see that the 'smart' hacker has to be useless at everything, though you keep claiming that. Again, it's simply not that many BP for not a very big dice difference. Second, why do you suddenly care about shooting people, when you were talking about ignoring anything non-hacking before? Why is shooting people preferable to First Aid, Medicine, and all the tech skills? Perhaps that's true for *your* runner team, but I don't think it's at all safe to generalize.

The moron hacker can use first aid as well. And I'm not interested in alternate rules for "fixing" the problem; I want to know why this problem exists in the first place. Why was it intended that Logic should have no place whatsoever in the use of computers in Shadowrun? The bottom line is that regardless of what tricks you use, the moron gets an extra 40BP that the smart hacker doesn't, without any real disadvantage for doing so. 40 BP is not insignificant; that's a skill group at 4. It's 200,000 nuyen. You seem to think that this doesn't matter, but that's a pretty serious difference.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 04:50 PM

It's not a problem, and it doesn't need fixing.

It's one way of doing it, and the alternatives are *other* ways of doing it. If you're not interested in those alternatives, what are you on about? Just here to rail against the injustice of script kiddies?

I believe I said 'First Aid, Medicine, and all the tech skills', which anyone can indeed use. However, the high Logic PC will be very good at them, for 'free'.

The 'moron' doesn't get 40 BP extra, because the high Logic hacker isn't getting nothing for it. You just happen to not like what he gets for it. Other people disagree. Neither is he 40 BP 'better' at hacking, as shown by your own example.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 05:00 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 09:50 AM)

It's not a problem, and it doesn't need fixing.

It's one way of doing it, and the alternatives are *other* ways of doing it. If you're not interested in those alternatives, what are you on about? Just here to rail against the injustice of script kiddies?

I believe I said 'First Aid, Medicine, and all the tech skills', which anyone can indeed use. However, the high Logic PC will be very good at them, for 'free'.

The 'moron' doesn't get 40 BP extra, because the high Logic hacker isn't getting nothing for it. You just happen to not like what he gets for it. Other people disagree. Neither is he 40 BP 'better' at hacking, as shown by your own example.

If this isn't a rule problem, then nothing is a rule problem, and the system is completely perfect. And yes, he *is* 40 BP better; a "smart" hacker wouldn't be able to afford that level of specialization without sacrificing their survivability in combat. And what does the "smart" hacker get for their 40BP worth of Logic? Absolutely nothing that will help them in hacking or combat. A few extra dice in First Aid, perhaps.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 05:14 PM

Again, you're prioritizing combat (a non-hacking role) over all Logic-related stuff (including Hardware and coding, which *are* quite hacking-related).

A few extra dice in *every* Logic skill. Your selective vision is problematic.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 10:14 AM)

Again, you're prioritizing combat (a non-hacking role) over all Logic-related stuff (including Hardware and coding, which *are* quite hacking-related).

A few extra dice in *every* Logic skill. Your selective vision is problematic.

Hardware does absolutely nothing for hacking; it is completely unrelated, unless you are (stupidly) trying to build your own commlink instead of just buying one (the benefit of building yourself is minimal). Ditto for coding. You're overstating the usefulness of Logic as an attribute. It is, objectively speaking, the most useless attribute, in or out of combat.

thorya

Mar 22 2012, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 22 2012, 01:00 PM)

If this isn't a rule problem, then nothing is a rule problem, and the system is completely perfect. And yes, he *is* 40 BP better; a "smart" hacker wouldn't be able to afford that level of specialization without sacrificing their survivability in combat. And what does the "smart" hacker get for their 40BP worth of Logic? Absolutely nothing that will help them in hacking or combat. A few extra dice in First Aid, perhaps.

What he gets is the ability to use First Aid, Medicine, Demolitions, and Hardware better. As well as the ability to write Software better, which is sort of important for a hacker. Unless you just want to play someone that hits enter to run someone else's code, in which case it does make sense that you don't need to be that smart. As well as more dice for Academic and Professional knowledge, which is of various value depending upon your table. At mine, knowledges are fundamental to succeeding in your hacking (especially computer footwork) and combat (security response times, typical gear for the guards you're likely to encounter, whether they'll put a bullet in your head or put you on trial, etc.).

Also, why is the only option 1 or 5 for logic?

Warlordtheft

Mar 22 2012, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 12:19 PM)

Yeah, a lot depends on the piracy and coding rules in play.

Does anyone feel like recapping the various solutions, or are you bored with the topic?

Type 1: (Logic + Skill); Programs contribute to hit- or dice-caps; alternatively, programs limit Logic and/or Skill separately ('only as good as your tools')?
+ Simple, no DP creep.
– General cap drawbacks, esp. for hit-caps; messes with Technos.

Type 2: (Logic + Skill + Programs), with varying weight; +Logic/2, +Program/2, Program-as-Reach, Program (or Logic) giving a ±N.
+ Simple, lots of control over relative importance; doesn't mess as much with Technos.
– DP creep, more complex

Type 3: Skill+Program, but limit the program rating usable by the PC or NPC to their Logic. Note this would not apply to Technos threading up programs.

+Doesn't mess with dice mechanics and makes logic 1 hackers useless.
- No sense fluffwise as the persons skill would probably be a more realistic measure. ALso gimps mid range hackers with logic scores of 3 or 4.

Type 4: Skill+Program, but limit the dicepool usable by the PC or NPC to their 2XLogic. Note this would not apply to Technos threading up programs.

+Doesn't mess with dice mechanics and makes logic 1 hackers useless.
- This will even gimp mid range hackers.

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 05:37 PM

QUOTE

Hardware does absolutely nothing for hacking; it is completely unrelated, unless you are (stupidly) trying to build your own commlink instead of just buying one (the benefit of building yourself is minimal). Ditto for coding. You're overstating the usefulness of Logic as an attribute. It is, objectively speaking, the most useless attribute, in or out of combat.

These positions are simply ridiculous. As I very clearly said, Hardware and Software are *hacking-related*, vastly more so than your precious combat skills. And isn't it nice to have the choice? Your solution is just removes the choice.

I'm not sure you know what 'objectively' means, but it's clear that you believe what's true for you (and/or your table) is true for everyone. This is not the case.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 22 2012, 09:29 AM)

What he gets is the ability to use First Aid, Medicine, Demolitions, and Hardware better. As well as the ability to write Software better, which is sort of important for a hacker.

Why is this important for a hacker? What's the mechanical benefit, if you're just using the base book? Even with Unwired, how is it reasonable to expect the team to wait 3 months for you to develop your software tools before a job?

QUOTE

Unless you just want to play someone that hits enter to run someone else's code, in which case it does make sense that you don't need to be that smart. As well as more dice for Academic and Professional knowledge, which is of various value depending upon your table. At mine, knowledges are fundamental to succeeding in your hacking (especially computer footwork) and combat (security response times, typical gear for the guards you're likely to encounter, whether they'll put a bullet in your head or put you on trial, etc.).

Also, why is the only option 1 or 5 for logic?

5 is the max without paying extra, 1 is the least you could spend. I don't see much point in going for Logic 2 - you're still a moron with Logic 2, you just paid 10 points for the privilege.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 09:37 AM)

These positions are simply ridiculous. As I very clearly said, Hardware and Software are *hacking-related*, vastly more so than your precious combat skills.

I'm not sure you know what 'objectively' means, but it's clear that you believe what's true for you (and/or your table) is true for everyone.

How are they combat related? What can you do with Hardware that is related to hacking, using the core rulebook? What can you do with Software that doesn't involve your team waiting around for 3 months while you spend all day coding? And why would you bother, when an idiot with better stats gets the same benefits by using someone else's work?

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 05:49 PM

I didn't say they were combat-related.

Where did this magical 'core only' requirement come from? I notice that you're still applying your special double-standard: Logic-skills are 'not important for a hacker', but combat skills totally are?

You can assemble commlinks at half price, for one thing. I know you spit on this idea, so whatever. Many hackers are the gadget guys for their whole team.

I know TJ, for one, already mentioned various benefits of coding. No, it's not required. That doesn't make it not hacking-related, worthless, or not a valid choice. Downtime exists. More, requiring Logic only pushes PCs *toward* coding, so you better warm up to it.

My, my, your standards for 'moron' are so harsh. Apparently you think the only valid character choice is to buy Logic 3-5 (and only 5 for hackers)?

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Mar 22 2012, 05:49 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 21 2012, 03:15 PM)

As with any house rule, the GM will need to pay attention, though. It may be that doing as you say, TJ, results in some big balance shifts in some cases. (Anyone who tries, let us know?)

Indeed... We are still working with it... Seems to work so far, but we have yet to get crazy involved with it.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 09:49 AM)

I didn't say they were combat-related.

Where did this magical 'core only' requirement come from?

The rules that make Logic useless originate in the Core rulebook; what was the intent there? Is raw intellect really that pointless in 2070?

QUOTE

You can assemble commlinks at half price, for one thing. I know you spit on this idea, so whatever. Many hackers are the gadget guys for their whole team.

I know TJ, for one, already mentioned various benefits of coding. No, it's not required. That doesn't make it not hacking-related, worthless, or not a valid choice. More, requiring Logic only pushes PCs *toward* coding, so you better warm up to it.

I still think you have a very weak argument here. "Hey look guys, I saved a couple hundred bucks! And it only cost me my ability to be useful at anything that isn't related to monkeying around with computers!"

Meanwhile, his friends are like "So, about that....are you any better at, you know, ACTUALLY BREAKING INTO COMPUTERS than that drooling idiot Troll over there with the store-bought commlinik?"

And what will his answer be? No, that's what. In fact, there's a good chance that the moronic Troll can kick his ass in and out of the Matrix, and smoke him in any sort of Matrix-oriented contest. But hey, he can program his own software, that is no better than storebought software, so that has to count for something, right?

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 06:00 PM

No one thinks it's useless except you. You've been repeatedly given examples of uses for Logic. If you think Logic is useless, why do you want to force hackers to take it? Hacker PC tax?

It's more than a couple hundred, and it's not at the cost of being useful (on or off the matrix). (And, I notice, again you're saying things *other* than monkeying with computers are good? … Just not when they're Logic-linked, I guess.

) Homemade software is better than storebought in many ways. At this point, you're just lying about basically everything.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Mar 22 2012, 06:04 PM

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 22 2012, 09:14 AM)

I was kind of sleep-deprived, and didn't edit the program's output (for the record, I was using Chummer...it'd be nice if there were more output options). The problem, again, is that making a "smart" Hacker who is equally good at hacking (17 dice on Exploit) would require you to make the hacker useless at everything else (say goodbye to that Agility/Reaction). By making a complete moron, you get to be an incredible hacker who *also* is better at shooting people than the smart guy. What does the smart guy get to do?

Well, if you need automotive repairs, I guess he's your guy. Most 'runner teams would rather have the drek-hot hacker who dances between bullets, though. Even if he is a drooling moron.

Actually it doesn't. I made a variation of CanRay's Accountant from Hell. His Logic is 5 (7) If I Remember Correctly, and he rolls 15 Dice Hacking (with 17 on Spoof, IIRC) at Chargen. His skills are better all around (because we do not use Programs as direct dice adds), and he has a good selection of them. He IS lagging in a few areas, but not many, and all of the LOGIC linked Skills are WAY better than yours are. He also codes his own software to save an expense your guy cannot even truly comprehend. So, he is a more rounded Shadowrunner than Herp A Derp, overall, and arguably a better Hacker in the end. He also throws around 10-12 Dice for Shooting people in the face for money. WITH Decent Agility and Reaction attributes to boot. Unfortunately, his Body is a 3, and his Strength is a 2 (What do you expect? He used to sit at a desk all day and ate twinkies, after all).

It is a Design Philosophy. If you think Logic should have an impact, then make Logic have an Impact. It is not all that hard, especially since there are optional rules, and House Rules all laid out here in the thread.

I still say you are overstating your case. Your example does not really prove anything, other than your own biases.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 06:08 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 10:00 AM)

No one thinks it's useless except you. You've been repeatedly given examples of uses for Logic. If you think Logic is useless, why do you want to force hackers to take it? Hacker PC tax?

I want Logic to not be useless. It's not that hard to understand. The examples you've given have all had absolutely nothing to do with making the character better at Hacking, infiltrating, or combat, which are the three main areas of Shadowrunning. If your games are mostly about dangerous criminals making marzipan and cupcakes, then I guess I can see why crafting would be so attractive to you, but I don't think that has much of anything to do with Shadowrun.

QUOTE

It's more than a couple hundred, and it's not at the cost of being useful (on or off the matrix).

Yes, it is. Those 40 points you're spending on being smart (or 30 points, if you prefer) could be spent on hacking-related advantages, an extra commlink, agents, improved programs, higher skill ratings, etc. etc. You're stealing from your own core competency for the ability to tinker in your garage on useless crap.

QUOTE

Homemade software is better than storebought in many ways. At this point, you're just lying about basically everything.

It's funny for you to say that right after lying about the superiority of "homemade software".

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 22 2012, 10:04 AM)

Actually it doesn't. I made a variation of CanRay's Accountant from Hell. His Logic is 5 (7) If I Remember Correctly, and he rolls 15 Dice Hacking (with 17 on Spoof, IIRC) at Chargen. His skills are better all around (because we do not use Programs as direct dice adds), and he has a good selection of them. He IS lagging in a few areas, but not many, and all of the LOGIC linked Skills are WAY better than yours are. He also codes his own software to save an expense your guy cannot even truly comprehend. So, he is a more rounded Shadowrunner than Herp A Derp, overall, and arguably a better Hacker in the end. He also throws around 10-12 Dice for Shooting people in the face for money. WITH Decent Agility and Reaction attributes to boot. Unfortunately, his Body is a 3, and his Strength is a 2 (What do you expect? He used to sit at a desk all day and ate twinkies, after all).

It is a Design Philosophy. If you think Logic should have an impact, then make Logic have an Impact. It is not all that hard, especially since there are optional rules, and House Rules all laid out here in the thread.

I still say you are overstating your case. Your example does not really prove anything, other than your own biases.

This isn't about whether the problem is fixable with house rules; it's about asking why the broken rules were included in the first place. Why is it "okay" for the core ruleset to state that intellect has absolutely nothing to do with hacking?

Yerameyahu

Mar 22 2012, 06:11 PM

Just to be totally clear, the only three valid areas for a *hacker* to be good at are hacking, combat, and now infiltration?

Show me. I don't believe that your core hacking competency is being significantly reduced by having to raise Logic.

Pardon? What's wrong with self-coded software now?

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The rules aren't broken. *You* just don't like them. Why is it *not* okay for Logic to have not much to do with hacking (the justification of which is in the rules)?

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 06:13 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 22 2012, 10:11 AM)

Just to be totally clear, the only three valid areas for a *hacker* to be good at are hacking, combat, and now infiltration?

Show me. I don't believe that your core hacking competency is being significantly reduced by having to raise Logic.

Pardon?

--
The rules aren't broken. *You* just don't like them. Why is it *not* okay for Logic to have not much to do with hacking (the justification of which is in the rules)?

Ah, I see. This is you trolling me. I guess I'm done here, then. I really wish these forums had an "ignore" function.

Also, what's "wrong" with self-coded software is that you claim it is superior, but have presented no argument in favor of that statement. Anything you can code yourself you can buy in-game, so there's no mechanical benefit to coding for yourself.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Mar 22 2012, 06:23 PM

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 22 2012, 11:11 AM)

This isn't about whether the problem is fixable with house rules; it's about asking why the broken rules were included in the first place. Why is it "okay" for the core ruleset to state that intellect has absolutely nothing to do with hacking?

First: The rule is not broken, as you claim it is...

Secondly, Because in the world of 2070, Intellect is no longer the driving factor in Hacking. The Skill and Programs are better and faster at it than the raw human mind is. Which works, as far as it goes. Not that I would agree with that.

For those that do not agree, there have been provided 2 Optional Rules to address that issue. If you don't like the default assumptions for Hacking, use one of the optionals provided. It really is that simple.

As for Yerameyahu's Response... In his defense, you DO keep shifting those goal posts JonathanC.

JonathanC

Mar 22 2012, 06:33 PM

I'm not shifting any goal posts. I should not have to purchase an "optional" book to get a set of hacking rules that make sense (for the record, I own Unwired and all of the hardcover 4th ed books except the 6th world almanac). If the rules aren't broken, then what would you consider broken? Logic goes unused by all of the major archetype roles; it's only used in secondary roles like medic (which is outdone by magical healing) and mechanic.

Also, the technology of 2070 is more advanced than it is now; if anything, hacking and bypassing security should require *more* intellect, not less. I would *rather* play a smart hacker, but if a Logic 1 hacker is "smarter" (more points for hacking qualities, thus superior at the task) than a Logic 5 hacker, then what is the point?