so looking at the TM stuff it feels like TMs are not only matrix mages but, due to poor rules, are now inferior to deckers in every aspect but staying hidden. Also they have lots of CFs that seem to be decker supportive, a few examples.

Cleaner- remove OS score (no useful to said TM usually),
matrix attribute infusion- does not raise dice pools, only limits, with deckers having inherently more dice than TMs this works well has a support to a decker,


Now not to say they are not "fun" to play, with all the nifty CFs they have (pupeteer, resonance spike, and tattletale) It seems they work best as a support to the decker than as the hacker themselves. that being said I have had very little in game exp. with this. (we have a TM and a Decker in the group, the decker is about 10 dice ahead of the TM in almost everything, not counting programs)

Why not? It's what I think. The opinions I've gotten of technomancers in SR5 from friends of mine range from "waste of pages" to "superfluous." Their complex forms have Fading values that are way too high, they've had nerfs to crucial mechanics, and anything a technomancer has access to, a decker has these things, but better, and often for a far less investment cost. They're "fun" in the same way playing a character who sucks at their profession is.

I will argue that while not as proficient as a decker TMs have nifty things that I feel add a bit of fun to them. (not to say it makes up for the nerf sledgehammer they got, but still) enough to play one if you want, unless you only care about being the best. also, TMs have the only attack action that can be done without alerting the receiver.

ummm... how does your decker have 10 more dice across the board than the technomancer? dice pools should be *fairly* close, unless the decker invested in attributes and skills while the technomancer completely dumped both...

(note: not arguing that technomancers didn't get nerfed, or that their best role fresh out of chargen is as a secondary/support hacker... unless you potentially count rigging... but i am surprised that the dicepools are so much bigger for your decker)

sorry, its an adept decker, and not counting codeslinger and the like its more along the lines of 6 dice.

ah okay, adept decker makes a lot more sense

still a bit higher than i would have expected (adept skills should basically be limited to 3-point increases at chargen, unless you're assuming the really screwy wording they've got is accurate), but much more reasonable =S

said hacker has cerebral boosters some how lol.

So with the new rules do you think Adept hackers closed the gap between themselves and full deckers/hackers?

I ask since I agree that Technomancers are peged to played a bit more as their own role like the topic suggests...
Maybe closing the gap between themselves and a adept hacker/decker since SR4(not great at anything but looks fun to play).

Interesting... Some stuff I was coming to on my own about technomancers being better as support to deckers & riggers than going on their own as premier hackers because of their innate ability to work the Matrix with just their brain.

Interesting that in this edition of Deckerrun that the archetype that would likely be the best hacker is delegated to being a 4th rate character type.

not quite sure what you are asking.

Several technomancers sat at various tables I ran at Gen Con. The only time they were really effective were as back up to the hacker.

i'm pretty sure that adept deckers are the best presently available in SR4 (well, possible argument for mystic adepts, but i suspect that won't really take off until we get a chargen method other than priority) actually.

bearing in mind that the adept powers are improving their skills, and need not directly affect things on the matrix, provided we're talking about the ones that just give you extra skill.

Which is really sad, actually. A Technomancer should be able to stand on his own.

I haven't run a Technomancer, but I just stated one up in a spread sheet to see what I could do with it, and I think it's fairly effective compared to a Decker. Priority A Attributes, B Technomancer, C Skills, D Race (Human), E Resources.

Looking at the Complex Forms, I focused on Puppeteer, which when cast on a device can be used to make it take matrix actions, like Invite Marks. Complex Forms don't generate Overwatch Scores, so this allows a "GOD Free" hacking alternative vs devices, but not hosts, personas, or files. With a Specialization in Puppeteer on a rank 6 software skill, along with Resonance 6, the character throws 14 Dice. Invite Mark is a simple action, so the Technomancer only needs 2 net hits vs the target's Firewall + Willpower to have it invite him to place 3 marks. Also, as a Resonance action, threading the Puppeteer complex form isn't something that a matrix perception check can detect as your persona's most recent matrix action, nor does it take the -2 penalty for running silent. This makes ICE less likely to detect your intrusions.

Similarly the Editor complex form allows the alteration, including copying and therefore changing of ownership, of a file without generating OS or worrying about Marks. I'm not sure how this complex form interacts with Protection and Data Bombs, though I think it's supposed to ignore them as it's not "Edit" which is what DataBombs and Protection are associated with. That would mean a copied file is free of the databomb (it remains "attached" to the original file) and protection shouldn't be a problem anymore because you own the new file.

Another complex form, Static Veil, prevents OS from going up due to time. A Decker, once they start hacking, has a limited amount of time before a GOD shows up and dumps them, but a Technomancer with Focused Concentration Rank 2 can performing hacking actions off and on for as long as they like and stay on the same grid. Better yet, when combined with the Ereaser complex form, they can pause after hacking to lower their OS score a bit, allowing them to take their time on hacking runs without worrying about GOD... ICE in a host could still be a threat of course.

Lastly, the Technomancer I made had a 6 in Charisma (Attack 6) with a 5 in Willpower (Firewall), 5 in Logic (Data Processing), 5 in Intuition (Sleaze) and 6 Resonance (Device Rating). That's fairly comparable to a Decker that spends a lot of funds on a Deck. Similar would be A Renraku Tsurugi ($214,125, 9R) at 6/5/5/4, with a device rating of only 3, although that deck can be pushed up to 7/6/6/3 when fully loaded and properly configured with software for a task.

The 6 Attack, along with Logic 5, Codesligner (Data Spike), Cybercombat 6, and a Specialization in Devices, makes the character extremely effective at burning out gear, and not bad at Brute Force Attacks. In VR that's 17 dice, limit 6, for burning out a device, with a damage of 6 + net hits. If he had a chance to Thread up Puppeteer and gain 3 marks on the device first, he does 6 more damage (2 per mark).

Now I admit a Decker+Technomancer combo can be very impressive, as a lot of the Complex Forms can work a Decker's Persona, or better yet his deck, to make him a power house of hacking, but that's not far off a Mage with the right spell selection being able to turn an Adept with the right power selections & gear into a combat monster. Also, this build I've done doesn't make much use of Sprites. A Technomnacer that focuses on Sprites: compiling them, registering them, and then using complex forms to improve/maintain them... and letting the sprite do all the hacking work, could be very potent, and generally not gain an OS score himself.

I think the biggest problem with Technomancers right now is they have a hard time getting programs or their equivlents. Needing to submerge to get an echo to get one cyberprogram is a bit rough, especially if PCs aren't supposed to be able to start with Submersion grades. Programs like Sneak, Wrapper, Lockdown, Biofeedback, and others provide fairly important features to some styles of hacker character. More over, a Technomancer's attributes do a great job of aproximating a Deck's attributes, but decks can not only be reconfigured, but they can also run programs to boost their attributes. Technomancers have the Infusion complex form, but it targets Devices, which sadly a Technomancer and his Sprites are not.

dont forget the 10 fading you are taking for using a level 6 puppeteer CF. and the edit CF is L+1 I think?
anyway, here is a decker, 6 hacking, 8 logic (cerebral boosters) specialization hacking on the fly. we are now sitting at 16 dice. lets take magic D, 2 PP= 2-3 more dice. program for +2 to this skill (exploit) we now are at what 21 dice without VR? add code slinger 23 dice w/out VR. resources A, (or B if you can make it work)skills B Attributes C magic D meta E. you still have 16-18 dice out of VR for cybercombat. at resources A you can grab a cyber arm for shooting with pistols (tasers are my fav here) and even a synaptic booster! ofc you can take res. B and skills A for more diversity in the skills area. but meh. (another thought, instead of codeslinger grab exceptional attribute for +1 across the hacking board). TMs main roll it seems is a support (meat world with diagnostics, and matrix with decker support) not to say they -cant- be the main hacker, but its harder for them.

Editor is L+2.

And yeah, Puppeteer is likely set at L+4 just so technomancers won't be flinging it about like candy at a parade, unlike magicians and fireballs at F-1.

TM after using an L6 Puppeteer: "And... at the most inopportune time... I... shall go unconscious."

*hhmmm I feel like taking a nap, PUPETEER!*

Yah, fading can be a bitch that way, but Puppeteer probably doesn't need to be cast at full Level all the time considering you only need a 2 net hits to get a simple action. If the average device is rating 2 and the average user has willpower 3, then they only get 5 dice to resist, so your average device is only needing a Level 3 or so casting for 7 Fade. At least the technomancer is resisting with 11 dice (6 resonance + 5 willpower) and it will be Stun damage instead of Physical. Still, that's a lot of stun damage I agree, but you can use it to get 3 legal marks in a single action with no OS score, so it's no minor ability.


Magic, Cyberware, decent (mental) Stats, high skills, an expensive deck, with cash and skills left over for an tricked out cyberarm and gun? Wow. I'm feeling a bit inspired now. Thanks for the tips on building a highly focused decker!

I. I am not sure if that is genuine or sarcastic, I will go with genuine. heh. unfortunately the above would limit two attributes two 1 (without karma expenditure or cyber averages :/) but other physical stats around 3ish.

Genuine. I had a 4th edition pink mowhawk type hacker character with a cyberarm for gunplay. He was an experiment in building a rediculously focused hacker character in 4th rules. This is essentially a 5th edition (adept enhanced) similar concept. Mind you, the original hashsaw was built for AR hacking with slightly enhanced reflexes. I could try to do that here, but I'd have to drop all the ware and spend a lot more power points.

Right now I've got 9 Hacking with 8 Logic + specialization. Sadly I can't fit a full cyber arm on the character without losing another power point or reducing the cerebral boosters to rating 1. I think I can probably get his hacking up some more through, but I need to head to work now.

If you're just hacking on and off, you might as well reboot your deck/persona from time to time. On the other hand, Static Veil seems mandatory if you want to use Sprites, which generate OS just by existing...

@Redjack:

Did the rules at least work without too many "uhm, good question" moments?

@blackjaw:

puppeteer is good. so is spoofing. and actually, you probably will need force 6 (or close to it) most of the time against anything significant... if you're only up against a device rating 2 device, just wreck it with hacking and then reboot afterwards, and you never have to deal with GOD anyways. if you're not up against a device rating of 2, you need to have a high enough limit to account for the device's hits, and since nobody wants to take 8 or 9 points of fading with *no* gain just because someone managed to roll a couple of hits more than "average", you're probably looking at a pretty high rating complex form.

editor doesn't mention anything about letting you bypass copy protection or data bombs. i see no reason why it would. although at least that would help a great deal in terms of making technomancers worthwhile... complete safety from data bombs would help an awful lot, especially since they are so ridiculously devastating to technomancers.

static veil is actually not that great in many ways. your OS only increases every 15 minutes by time. given that hacking has been greatly sped up, that isn't terribly useful, except for keeping sprites around longer than ~2.5 hours.

eraser is pretty handy though, and ultimately makes static veil even more useless since you can just use it once or twice every 15 minutes.

as to those matrix attributes, they don't compare favourably to the best deck you can get in chargen, which has 4/5/6/7, can be swapped with extreme ease (no really, just buy a whole bunch of copies of the program that lets you swap everything, one for each possible configuration of programs and attributes you expect to want, and it's a simple reconfigure to get your deck to fit just about any purpose). the damaging CF is kinda garbage, apart from not generating OS; the amount of damage is merely net hits, so unless their soak pool is 3 times your attack rating, just attacking stuff with regular hacking is probably better (and in fact, considering how you can boost your deck's ability to attack via programs, it's actually even more favourable to go with a regular decker).

it's not just about dice pools (although to some extent those will likely be smaller for a technomancer). it's about versatility, and not taking huge amounts of fading damage which can take extended rest breaks to recover from, and not having to use your personal damage tracks in the matrix, and being able to use cyberware and bioware.

The problem is every time you reboot your persona you lose all your marks on other icons (and vice versa). If your trying to go slow, say because you are trying to hang around and snoop on traffic, or because you need to wait for a legitimate user to pull a file out of a host archive, then the slowly gathering OS score will be trouble, especially if when the archived file gets pulled out of 2 hours later you already have a large Overwatch Score that means you can't do much without being beset by defenses.

Admittedly, Eraser can do something similar to Static Veil if you cast it at low Level a few times an hour. Also, it is useful for keeping a non-registered sprite around longer than a few hours due to it's OS.

Look at Databomb and Protection (under Edit File) though: they apply under a very specific set of actions that does not include Complex Forms. Essentially I don't think Editor (complex form) is not the same thing as Editing (Matrix Action) a file, although it provides the same ends. It's not clear, but it might provides a way around the protection and bomb.

Adept/Hackers in 4th i felt were relegated to finding a few specializations and staying just o.k.
as far as the rest of their technicial skills. But do you see a support role for adept type deckers more relevent?

The rule changes do make hacking the matrix in SR5 more acessable i guess.

With the monetary investment in making a half-passable decker, it's actually less. Because by the time you've invested shit into being a decent decker, you might as well stay that way.

Adept hackers in sr4 is allowed geas and or ways easily beat the mundane in any hacking area.

True. but taking away the monetary investment at first, the game may be open for other archtypes to at least not be awful at it in an ongoing campaign.

I'm looking to play a magician/decker if the numbers are right....
The changes in the 6th world version of the matrix make me think...

EDIT:

I mean mystic adept/decker.....

That is a very large stretch...

Looks like you're right:
Edit File, Page 239: "Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. "
Edit File, Page 239: "A protected file cannot be read, changed, deleted, or copied until its protection is broken."
Set Data Bomb, page 242: "The Data Bomb is triggered when someone attempts to read, edit, copy, protect, delete, or put another Data Bomb on the file without using the already-in-place Data Bomb’s passcode."
Set Data Bomb, page 242: "If the passcode is used, the Data Bomb doesn’t activate. Instead, it remains attached to the file, waiting for the next guy."
Editor, page 252: "You infuse a file with Resonance long enough to manipulate its contents. Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test against the Intuition + Data Processing of the file’s owner. You can make the same amount of changes to the file that you would be able to make with your net hits in Edit File actions."

I had hoped that "manipulate contents" was an intentional way around "edit" as a trigger/restriction for data bombs and protection. My thinking was that it was a resonance thing, and that standard matrix security simply didn't detect it because it was a complex form not a matrix action, but the wording doesn't really hold up to that interpretation. It looks more like Editor is just a way to edit and otherwise mess with a file without having a Mark on it.

I believe this was intended by the developers? SR5 has gone to great lengths to bring back Deckers.

I'd say they went to great lengths to redesign the Matrix once more, reintroducing deckers was a welcome side effect. Because all there is to the new decks basically boils down to "security got upgraded and we developed ASICs to break it, henceforth known as decks".

I don't know. I actually think that it DOES go around the databomb aspect... Or at least maybe copies it all over into a new file with the same settings on it.

The reason I think this is that there are almost NO spells/CF's that do the same thing as another NORMAL action. The Edit Matrix action is able to be used by ANYONE in the matrix (Decker, adept decker, or a technomancer) without the need for a specific program/CF/power. Therefore, the editor CF must be special in some way.

If this was 4th or 4a, I would agree with you. CF's were just "copies" of a program but using the resonance angle. NOW, a Technomnacer can do anything a Decker can, out the gate, without spending BP, Karma, or some other system to do so. There are no programs to achieve your ends, only Actions (disregarding the actual programs which are now mods to actions).

So, that brings up the question of Editor and Edit. Why on God's Green Earth would they put a CF to copy a matrix action without the DIRECT INTENTION to make it different from the plain action?

If you have Logic 5, Software 5, that's 10 dice for Edit action.
If you have Resonance 5, Software 5, you're still looking at 10 dice for Editor.... Why the hell would they do that? Yeah, you can have Resonance 6, making it a +1 die rolled, but that's hardly worth 7 karma to pick up something you can do out of the gate.

No, there has to be another reason? Is it just marks? you don't need marks? That COULD be it, however getting marks doesn't take very long (though it does increase OS).

A Decker with Edit action and a Technomancer using Editor (with the exact same stats, baring Resonance) will achieve the exact same end. The Decker will get a few points of OS more than the Technomancer, and might take an extra turn, but the end result is the same, and the OS increase is most likely only 2-3 points.

So what makes Editor special? It has to be something other than, "This CF does exactly the same thing as the action you can do without spending karma or taking drain to do."

I kind of feel like because it's a CF, it might just bypass more than just Mark requirements and OS. For the love of all that is shiny, you're going to take Fading damage 1/2 the time when you do it.

If they're the same thing, I'll NEVER buy Editor. It's not worth the fade and the karma. It just isn't.

EVERY other CF has a specific and VERY special use that you can't get with a Matrix action (some programs might do SIMILAR, but not the same thing).

The thing i find funny is the fact that the Matrix as in SR4 was more secure just by being so hostile to everyone using it. It amounted to individuals or small groups snarling over virtual carcasses dumped on the road by thoes in the 'know'...

The assessability of the Matrix has improved therefore lowering the hostility.
And the addition of a unified defensive system helps too.....

Well, yeah. It's Deckerrun now...

Make that Magic-Decker-Run if you really want to beat on the dying horse. The Decker-Adept-with-Cerebralboosters is a potent hacker build. I'm looking at 23+ dice on a Hack on the Fly action, and that's with the Running Silent penalty canceling out the Hot VR bonus.

The Matrix is both more and less secure now. The outright hacker based theft I could pull in 4th edition isn't possible anymore thanks to ownership rules, but the game was specifically designed to make hacking faster and more effective in the short run. To counter that concept they also made it time limited, and expensive, which is to say that script kiddies aren't dancing all over the matrix because you can't use a commlink to hack (and decks are quasi-illegal and expensive), and the zombie-bot armies of hacked commlinks aren't really possible any more because your OS goes up with time once you start hacking, and your marks vanish when you reboot or get dumped.

what the editor CF does is let you edit things a whole heck of a lot faster. you can perform your net hits in edit actions. whether or not you can use that to edit the next [net hits] rounds of a live video feed is somewhat open to interpretation though =S

I found quite the opposite. An Adept hacker with the right 1 point of Essence loss was vastly superior to a purely technological hacker.

There is a whole lot you can squeeze into that 1 point of essence loss, and things like a datajack and sim module could be left out via trodes.

I liked the math processor and the one more that inhanced logic that i forget the name of....

but even with, it was hard to get hacking skills on par with a good hacker build. Adepts tended to have some type of secondary skill set completely unrelated to the Matrix that needed at least as many points..

not really, you can, as an adept, specialize completely in the matrix.

True.

But then there is the problem of your character not being able to do anything else. I guess if I find a group that needs a pure decker I will try just that.

Or you're a hacker/face, which means you're spending a paltry amount of your power points on kinesics, and two skills, which does nothing to dilute your hacking ability and actually improves your value to the team as a researcher since you can do legwork in and out of the matrix with ease.

The more theorycrafting I do with Technos for 5e, the more depressed I become. If someone was that hard on for the return of the "Decker", they should have found a way of making it a unique and viable choice, without completely marginalizing the Technomancers. Even the priority build is slanted against Technomancers.

it was a perfectly viable build in 4e. technomancers were pretty danged good at being the classic decker who sits in a heavily fortified van while everyone else goes in for the run, but as soon as you tried to fit both hacking and a second area of specialty in you were pretty much screwed. you could replace a regular decker fairly well, especially as you started earning karma (although the regular decker wasn't completely left in the cold, i don't feel the cyber available to make one a better decker was competitive with the stuff available to technomancers). but try and replace, say, a combat decker who can be almost as effective as a street samurai, or a decker who was good at physical infiltration or social engineering (never mind trying to mix in a bit of all of the above), and you were pretty much going to have a bad time.

even combining decker with rigger was a bit rough, although certainly mitigated by the remote control option and the fact that you didn't need any high attributes to pull it off.

in short, any decker that wanted to anything beyond just decking was going to be significantly better off not being a technomancer. unless we get into theoretical case discussions where said technomancer has had a few hundred karma to spend or something, but at that point our theoretical technomancer is probably not much better at being a technomancer than he was when the character was built.

That's just it though, I think whoever created the new Matrix rules was so hung up on bringing back the "Decker" (in RAW 4 they were "Hackers") that they just marginalized TMs as a result of the focus on semantics. They could have found a better way (IMHO) to reintroduce the concept of decking, without gutting Technomancers.
The concept of the wireless world and the introduction of TMs (they are not just evolved Otaku) was my favorite part of SR4. Most of the changes for "Deckers" I actually like. The ability to change your setup, on-the-fly, is a great boon to those guys.
I don't like the concept of TMs as "Matrix Magicians", but if that is what you are going to make them, then at least make them comparable. Don't make them 30 Karma more expensive to create. For the higher build cost you also get an analog to spirits that are far less powerful than spirits and much more prohibitive Drain/Fading costs.

All Matrix related characters are suffering the same marginalization.
Now it doesn't matter how high your skills are eventually your illigal actions will get you noticed. No more 'hijacking' and 'spamming' then bragging how cool you hacker is.....

Maybe thr real intent of the authors is to incourage mult-skilled, multi purposed runners.

Just seems to emphasize more speed and recklessness than care and caution. You blast in, do what you want, jack out, and reboot. Deckers have the advantage of higher limits and more flexible options in programs. Technomancers... Well, they're no longer the super heroes of the matrix as they're relegated to "hero support", the caste few strive to be.

And in all honesty the blasting in part is something that can been done in SR4 as well.

I agree.

The only way to solve that now, is to get physically closer to a target then get out. Or plan small incursions to gather useful info. Very doable from a roleplay sense with relativly less risk....

SR4 was an environment where every turn you character took creeping through the matrix was potentially a game ender since useful nodes/targets were very well defended by a very highly thought out, layered matrix computer scheme. It made almost no sense not to have a hyper-skilled hacker character just to be passable.

So, my TM, with no augmentation, and with machine sprites which can no longer interact with machines and no way to boost his own meat stats and sprites which get no optional abilities based on their level, should grab a gun and start shooting back? That or suck up the essence and resonance hit and get cybered (after all I only had to spend the same priority as a full Mage to get resonance and I only get 30 karma less of benefits for the same priority).
Maybe I should submerge three times and be a Riggermancer. Of course I still can't use a remote deck and my living persona at the same time. Of course I can always overthread my complex forms and ruin someone's day, If I'm willing to eat the non-healable physical damage to do it.
The best I have been able to come up with so far, is a human TM with 7 edge to be able to exceed limits and soak the fading. Of course the priority table is unbalanced for special stats for Humans, so you can only do that with A priority for Techno and C for race, but it IS possible. With this build I can wait around for the right moment to unload, scrub some unsuspecting Decker and then let the rest of the team finish up the run while I take a nap. The other bright spot is, if we don't have a need to frag some poor schmuck in the Trix, I can use that spare edge on compiling/registering, between runs for my limited highly specialized sprites.

Well, yes... Sometimes using a gun is a better alternative.
That said... Technomancers were sorely nerfed in SR5, and for no apparent reason. *shrug*