I just don't have any luck here...

On a average roll, I should have had like 4 net hits, not -2.

Can you please use d4s or something in future?

Bye
Thanee

He was impossible to hit regardless of your roll. Most weapons don't even get an accuracy of 11 (which is the minimum you needed to have in order to hit the bastard).

@Jack


What could we have done? Although Nova and bnc were specifically looking for surveillance drones, if I remember correctly, we didn't even get a perception roll until it was long too late and Thanee pointed out that we should have got a roll. She then passed but we have already been spotted.


Does it? Why? CRB 301 states "When materialized, the spirit uses astral perception (its only perception) to perceive the physical world." To me, that sounds pretty much like a very explicit declaration that spirits do not have these senses (except, of course, if they have Enhanced Senses, which I didn't know as I have no clue what kind of spirit they are). So I'm nut sure about hearing, as this apparently is kind of part of astral perception, but it definitely doesn't have physical sight or smell. If they explicitly have low-light and thermographic, they'd count as sight, and would still be influenced by the chameleon suit. You could, of course, argue that there's a sense of adoration on it, but explicitly not an aura as well.

But I get the general gist: We didn't stumple upon an unprepared wageslave but deal with very well-prepared professionals with good gear who are not easily ambushed as they took precaution, and accept and appreciate that I underestimated the level of professionality we are dealing with. Maybe because we are lacking it



I might be mistaken again, and damn, I know I'm being a pain in the ass, and I'm really sorry for it, but the mage's initiative should be 6 not 15.
He rolled 36. -10 from full defense is 26.
When he entered the fight, we were already in the 3^rd pass, so he missed two, not one initiative pass, which makes it 6.

Defense rolls
Uhm. I cannot use Full Defense now, can I? Fuck, I'm dead. I somehow that that was already the first action of the new round. I hate Shadowrun rules -.-
Defense rolls: 10d6t5 4
I have to use Edge, or I'm dead as bones: Edge: 6d6t5 3
I barely evade the spell.

3 points of edge spent

@gilga

First action: Data spike the guns.
Second action: break and enter
Third action: shoot

My Accuracy is 14.

Bye
Thanee

Dude xD how?? wotcha.


Uh, and by the way, fellas: I don't know if any of your chars has attention to spare, but if they do: bnc's cam feed is, of course, in the group channel. But considering they are focussed on the fight and cannot follow 4 cam feeds at once, that might be of no practical value. Still, especially Wraith (who's not in the battle and will more likely be focussed on giant sword wielding brutish monster spirits) might notice.

@Volker
The surveillance drones could have been spotted if your matrix perception check would have been better. Noting things the size of insects in a dark, snowy light poluted city, who are also affected by concealment weren't something I'd actively reveal to you unless you are going to look for them.
Believe me, I do want to make this fair (which is why I explicitly pointed out the relevant modifiers for Sharkboy), but at some point it is you all who have to step up your game if you don't want to deal with situations like that.
Me having to explain again and again why I do what I do is really tiresome. If you want to haggle about modifiers, expect in future that I will use them all - including the suggestions about noise and background count.


@Spirits: The important thing is that their stat block contains the perception skill in addition to their assensing. I can't imagine them being completely deaf. That would make communication with them impossible (which is important since they can be made to obey the commands of a mundane). Neither could they feel pain, heat or even their own bodies.
In short, that "no perception except assensing" is not feasible in play.

As for the impressions:
"Objects that are neither magical nor living do not have an aura; they are featureless grey shadows of their physical form. They can, however, pick up impressions for a limited time from being in contact with living auras. A teddy bear in the Barrens might pick up a child’s fear, a wedding ring its owner’s sense of love and joy, or a murder weapon an aura of rage. These impressions are vague and fleeting, but you don’t need to assense the object to get them."

By the rules the mage would have a second pass, but fear not, I won't have him act again in this round as it's all confusing enough as it is.

Also it seems as if you managed to draw even on your defense test against an electric attack - which means you still get to deal with 10 P(e) AP-10 damage to soak, as well as half that amount of Matrix damage


@gilga

Your spirit isn't materialized, so it's not important which attributes it uses, since it's always force x2.
If you want to bash the barrier in with astral combat you need to contend with an opposed roll of Fx2=20 dice and you need to do 10 damage within one round in astral combat to create an opening.
If you want to press through it's charisma + magic vs. Barrier Force x2
Resist: 20d6t5 9, so your bashing with astral combat would have done 2 damage - 8 to go till the end of the round when the barrier again gains full health


Battery resists
Resist: 12d6t5 5
No Levitation (Resistance tests are never affected by wound penalties)

What an underwhelming experience this combat

what happens if we walk into the barrier with a high force spell? can the spell take down the barrier?

Ini twos are now on point

In Preparation of the new Round:

Mage: Ini 2: 16+4d6 34
Guardian Spirit (in Flat): Ini 2: 15+2d6 23
Bound Spirit (Astral): Ini 2: 14+3d6 21
Assault: Ini 2: 16+3d6 26
Battery: Ini 2: 14+4d6 29 (His Kamikaze just kicked in, lowering his wound mods to 1)

@gilga

You can force an intersection Spell Force x2 vs. Barrier Force x2. Winner survives, other gets disspelled (Barrier will still go up again the next round)

Battery is just blessed by the gods of luck... he constantly rolls above average.

I think he had like one bad roll so far, which was against another bad roll, so sufficient.

Anyways, making my Toxin Resistance roll (which, surprisingly, went well (at least the first part)).

Toxin Resistance 9 hits + Edge 0 hits

I am really starting to wonder, what my Edge is even good for ... every time I used it so far it was a bad (re-)roll, every single time.

Bye
Thanee

To be fair, he hasn't really done anything beyond defending, throwing a grenade and being battered right and left

Just means his concept works. If you hadn't disarmed Assault so quickly this would have gone a bit different by now.

I am starting to question if we actually get out of this alive. Battery only took damage because he made a tactical mistake of using astral perception. He took 3 sniper rifle shots, for a whopping 3 stun. Is the shield march still effective, or is being clinched by the Shark nullify the routine?

By the way, is the grenade still pouring out gas? (e.g. can I fling it ?)

@Jack

I know it's tiresome and I really apologize. I also don't want to haggle just point out. Your understanding and knowledge of rules is far superior to mine (and, I believe, everyone's in this group), but you do mistakes as well, and have made several before. I want at least to try and point out if I think you have missed something. For example, I did look out specifically for surveillance drone both in the matrix and in the real world, and I didn't even get a roll [if I'm mistaken, I might have missed it]. Afterwards, you said it was our fault we didn't take them out before. Also there was the surprise test, the wrong calculation of my dice pool, Nova's missing perception test.
Often, rules aren't very clear or contradictive. If I can see that what's going on obviously contradicts rules (and I rely on them), I hope you understand that I will point them out. If the CRB definitely states that they have no matrix perception, and I rely in my sneaking on that fact, that is an issue (especially as bnc is not a tough fighter and is now in a very dangerous situation).

spirits: I'd agree that sounds is part of astral perception. I think that in the description it specifically says that astrally projecting magicians can hear sounds. Sight is a different matter (except, of course, it's a spirit power, which seems to be the case).

Impression: I agreed that it's got this touch in my post. I just stated that it's not an aura, and also not as bright and brilliant.

Mage: I don't understand why he would get a second pass. There's no such rule as "-10 for being late to combat". I assume that you derive this from CRB 193 where it says in the example "Bodyguard B couldn’t roll because of the critical glitch but the gamemaster thinks he could pop in later so he rolls for him anyway with both the –10 penalty for failing the Surprise Test and an additional –10 penalty for joining the Combat Turn after the first Initiative Pass (19 – 10 – 10 = –1)." But the -10 are because one pass is already over, so everyone (including those inactive) get -10. In this case, that happened twice, so the mage would be down to 6.
But again, I'm also getting tired of it. I will just accept that we play with this "-10 for being late" rule.

Lightning bolt: Same here. I can see no reason at all why the Grazing Hit rules would apply to a lightning bolt. It clearly says "touch-only" spells and that indirect spells need to win the Opposed test. In my opinion, it's a bit absurd that this rule would apply to a lightning bolt but not to a stunbolt or acid stream or whatever other indirect combat spells you have.

But if that's how you treat all electricity attacks, including lightning bolts, there you go:
Soak: 7d6t5 2
8 boxes of physical for James, 8 boxes of physical for bnc, 4 boxes of matrix damage for the deck (amounting to a total of 9).


I do agree, however, that we have to prepare better, work more as a team and altogether more professional.

@gilga now you should be able to fling it as the trigger has already been activated. But I don't think it would be of any use as the gas has already streamed out and will linger for another 3 combat rounds.

So in our game, would lighting bolts be easier to hit with than firebolts/ice-bolts and the other elements?
Or would all indirect combat spells hit on a tie. I was under the impression that tie is a miss - but when I read core it did not say what happens on a tie.

@Volker, I think that bnc and the deck get their own damage resistance. Even if you are hit.

and by the way Jack/Volker. bnc does get to use full defense even after her turn:

4. DECLARE & RESOLvE ACTIONS OF REMAINING CHARACTERS (core rules page 159, that describes combat - bold part is my addition.)

Once the character with the highest Initiative Score has acted, move on to the character with the next highest Initiative Score and repeat Step 3 until all characters have acted in the Initiative Pass. Once all characters have acted, subtract 10 from all characters’ Initiative Scores and return to step 2 for all characters with an Initiative Score greater than 0. If a character was wounded previously, wound modifiers may affect his Initiative Score on this and any subsequent Combat Turns. Once all characters have an Initiative Score of 0 or less, move to Step 5
===========

My take on it, resolving bnc's actions does not lower her initiative - the end of the phase does. So when the mage strikes her with lighting - she CAN go full defense without a hitch (she has initiative 8, and can therefore use full defense).
The thing you said you dislike when you get a benefit for being SLOWER - is a wrong interpretation of combat sequence in my opinion. As you subtract initiative by 10 after the player acts, and not at the end of the phase.

If you already acted, you would not lose the action but if you are slower to act, that full defense may eliminate your ability to act. So being faster is always better than being slower.

That's a very interesting point. I still wouldn't be able to do full defense as this would mean -10 where I only have 8 left, but I could do Dodge or something.

@Jack:
If I use Dodge in a drone, do I use the Piloting skill or still Gymnastics?

Also: I believe you if you say for some reason that doesn't apply or already has been applied without further questioning but in case you have forgotten it: bnc is behind the wall with only the smartgun and a part of her head peeping through a small gap in the door. Thus I should get 4 bonus dice, would I not?

@gilge
Also thinks for pointing out I still do get resistance tests. I didn't realize.

You can go any interrupt as long as you have a positive initiative. No problem in being in negatives afterward.

Initiative Wraith: 9+1d6 13

Initiative Undiel: 14+2d6 18

Initiative Aeraziel: 16+2d6 25

Definitely one of the oddities of the system, but that's how we've been playing it for a while now. We've had enemies at 7 use full defense, and I used -10 interrupts to throw people at 4 initiative back at the bmw museum

you sure?


To me, that sounds that you have to be able to pay the full price, i.e. 10 points.

In Full defense, it explicitly says:

Well I don't know I thouht we played it like that. It seems strang that if you do not optimize for combat you cannot full defense but this is what the qoutes you bring say.

@Interrupts
I'd allow going full defense as your last action - provided you adjust your next round ini by the missing amount

@Mistakes
No question, I do make mistakes and I'm always up for correction. What I'm referring to was that "unfair because some modifications are used and others not"

@Electric attacks

I already quoted the exact rules for this



Electricity hurts when it makes contact. This is it's specialty and one of the reasons it's superior to the other elemental damage types.

@late to the combat
I'm not sure what you are arguing about: He is getting only one action and it's after bnc gets her action

@Interrupts

So, I'd make full defense but start my next ini with -2 modifier? That sounds pretty fair to me.
Full Defense: 5d6t5 2
With that, it misses. Thanks to both gilga, for pointing that possibility, and Jack for allowing me the roll.

@Mistakes

You're right, that was unfair. I apologize.

@Electric attacks

To me this is pretty specific for electronic weapons (the word is used 3 times within 2 sentences). The fact that it gives three specific examples and all of them are non-magical (different to where the electricity damage is described, where the spell lightning bolt is one of the examples), is a dead giveaway for me that this is not meant to be applied to spells or critter powers.
But again, your house, your rules, and if I know I can deal with it.

@late for combat

urm, pretty much a matter of principal, I guess.

Certainly, but he undeniably has his fair shair of luck going with it. On average, he should be down by now.

Bye
Thanee

Nova's Initiative 22

Bye
Thanee

Round 2:

Mage: 34
Battery: 29 (His Kamikaze just kicked in, lowering his wound mods to 1)
Assault: 26
Aeraziel Spirit Team 25
Guardian Spirit OP-Force (in Flat): 23
Nova: 22
Bound Spirit OP-Force (Astral): 21
Undiel Spirit Team: 18
Wraith: 13
Anna: ?
Anna's Spirit: ?
Sharkboy: ?
bnc: ?

Initiative: 18+2d6 30
She'll try to blast the shield out of Battery's hands.
Disarm + take aim: 17d6t5 5

gilga rolled 29 for me. Subtracting 2 because of my Full Defense, she's at 27.

Mage: 34
Anna: 30
Battery: 29 (His Kamikaze just kicked in, lowering his wound mods to 1)
bnc: 27
Assault: 26
Aeraziel Spirit Team 25
Guardian Spirit OP-Force (in Flat): 23
Nova: 22
Bound Spirit OP-Force (Astral): 21
Sharkboy: 20
Undiel Spirit Team: 18
Wraith: 13
Anna's Spirit:


So the mage get's to act first.

Complex Action: Mist Form
Movement: 5 m up and through cracks in the ceiling

Oh, by the way: I just looked up Full Defense: In Vehicles you get to use Intuition instead of Willpower.

Initiative: 14+3d6 23
You can also resolve Anna's first action.

Oh, right

Defense: 21d6t5 10

Seems like he is not about to give up too easy

He rapid draws his Blood Drinker Axe Rapid Draw: 18d6t5 4
And tries to kill the spirit attacking him with his weapon focus
Strike: 18d6t5 3
Oh boy. All the luck with defense, but the attack rolls...
Should it hit, the spirit now faces 11 DV AP-3 (Althoug the spirit won't have armor against a magical attack) + net hits.

Defense (undiel): 14d6t5 2
Oh frag, I can't believe it...
* when you try your best but you don't succee-eed starts playing*

So... Spirit suffers 12 DV. As it's a magical weapon, the spirits hardened armor/immunity is totally ineffective, as well as the enemy's armor piercing, right?
Resulting in only rolling body:Soak (Undiel): 6d6t5 1

11 damage taken. Spritit down, monitor is exactly filled. Bye-bye, 2 Karma I spent on you...

Holy shit.


But at least the merc has to resist 12DV (AP:-6 ) due to the cold aura, incl. armor tests for brittling armor again.

The karma is not lost, spirit will be back. It is not 'killed' it will take some time, I am not sure how much but read about it.
With his defense roll - it might be more effective than trying to hit the man.

Never knew he could 'undo rapid draw'... I thought he dropped the axe to toss the grenade. Just learning


Anyhow:

at Initiative 23: Anna's spirit would engage the fleeing mage (and with some luck save bnc's ass - as she cannot even harm the gurdian spirit due to light weapon/weapon immunitity). I think that he is a dual natured vampire or something to have myst form.

Astral combat: 12d6t5 6

The secret lies in adding a sling weapon mod to your weapons


Alright, seems like hitting an aura spirit was a dumb idea:

10(h)-6AP = 4 and two autohits remaining.

Soak: 26d6t5 10
So 12 in total, soaking exactly

Edit: Oh right, cold damage.
Shield: Armor test: 4d6t5 0
Armor test: 16d6t5 4

Looks like the shield breaks

Whew... at least that pesky shield is finally down. Now I'm glad that I gave the energy aura to the cold spirit, not the spirit of air.

@Gilga: You sure? CB p302 states that once all boxes of a condition monitor are filled, the spirit is forced back into its homeplane and explicitely that all remaining services are lost. Though it doesn't go into any details as to what happens to the spirit afterwards, I'll look into that some more.

I believe, that is only true for summoned spirits. Here is the Disruption part from the Street Grimoire. It states, near the end, that the spirit still counts against your limit, which clearly suggests, that services are still owed.

In SR4 this was how it worked with bound spirits.



Bye
Thanee

That is surely going to help.

Bye
Thanee

Ah, I just read the Street Grimoire note as well. Yeah, doesn'r really state that they reappear, but sounds like they can be called again after 22 days. A shame that they don't specify that the corebook-rule doesn't go for bound spirits .

Thanks, Gilga and thanee for pointing that out.

Yeah, unfortunately, that is a general problem with the SR5 rules, that tend to contradict themselves in a few places.

But, I am pretty sure, it is meant to work that way.

Bye
Thanee

Are banishing-tests limited to the physical world, or can I go astral and attempt to banish it from there?
This sounds like a very basic question, but I can't find an answer in any rulebook or forum.

Basically, I'm looking for the quickest way to get ready to get rid of that thing inside the corridor.
As Wraith is still in the flat and pretty slow, he'd have to waste quite a lot of time getting LOS to the opposing spirit if it's only possible from the physical world with physical sight, while I imagine astral LOS will be pretty much instantly as soon as he's astrally perceiving?

You can do it from the astral space. Basically, you can always use all your powers on beings in the same plance. Since spirits always are astral, they can also always be attacked from the astral. When it's manifested, it can be attacked by physical means, too, as it is then considered dual-natured.

@Jack
I somewhere wrote that the flat is in the second floor. But in the end, it's still your call. So, in which floor are we actually?
How many actions would it take to turn and run and jump out of the window? And which roll would it be? I'd assume it to be a Simple Action Running and a Simple Action for jumping out of the window, consuming one ini phase, and at least one Control Walker test. What do you say?

@Volker - if you do not mind bolting through the door - then you can help in the fight AND we can help you with the spirit.

@Luckace
Yeah you can use banishing on the spirit as long as you are on the same plane of existence

@Volker
Since the flat is so small and your drone so fast, you don't actually need to run - run and jump would be a maneuver test. And yes, second floor sounds about right (that is European second floor with a ground floor, first floor, second floor)
But I should mention that you'd risk falling to the ground if you go full throttle. You are about 8m up from the ground, so you'd resist 8P AP -4 with your body+armor

Joining the fight might be the better option, as you could ram through the door with little effort and still find cover, while jumping from the building would leave the spirit free to take a shot from above on you.

Well, then I'll join my teammates.

Two questions: Strictly speaking, it's impossible to kick in the door, as barriers ignore stun damage and unarmed combat would deal stun. Can I still kick in the door?
If so, I hope I'm using the correct dicepool (INT + Unarmed Combat + hot-sim): Unarmed Combat: 13d6t5 4
Soak: 6d6t5 3
That'd be 4 +1 = 5 boxes of damage, which is more than sufficient to kick in the door.
Thus:
Init phase 27:
Free Action: yell
Simple Action: kick in door
Simple Action: take cover

Question 2:
Is there any possibility to reduce falling/jumping damage? I spent a whole lot of money on hydraulic jacks and stuff to be able to jump out of windows from high places but I can't find anything in this regard. Are Gymnastics/Free Fall/Pilot Walker completely pointless in this regard? There must be something. Is there?

By the way, since synthetic cyberarms do physical damage, and James is essentially a drone - I'd assume he'll do physical damage in unarmed as well.

That makes sense, it still feels awkward that doors or windows cannot be kicked in

I edited my last post to match the discription.

Can the mage now be seen and attacked from the astral space?

If it can - I assume the ward does not extend 5 meters above the apartment... I posted an Action for Anna's spirit to be resolved when we get to initiative 23. If it is not visible - still in the ward I'll think of something else.

Sorry, no update today - just got home from a reallllllly long workday. Regular post tomorrow.

You can use a called shot to make an unarmed attack with no mods do lethal damage - and yes, cyberarms do lethal damage by default

Sorry, I wasn't aware that you had hydraulic jacks. Those do indeed reduce falling damage by 2m/rating point. So you likely won't get damaged, but you still would be an easy target on the ground.

Assault's action: Break Free: 18d6t5 6 from Clinch with Slobber. If successful he moves into the now open flat. Everyone in close comat with him may undertake a -5 ini Interrupt action to hit him.

Anna's spirit finds that the Mist is out of the warded area
Mage goes on full defense vs. Astral Combat: Full Astral Defense: 18d6t5 9

Mage: 34 (goes to mist form - declares full defense)
Anna: 30 (shoots to disarm, commands spirit)
Battery: 29 (His Kamikaze just kicked in, lowering his wound mods to 1) (Kills Undiel - loses shield)
bnc: 27 (charges through door into corridor)
Assault: 26 (tries to break free)
Aeraziel Spirit Team 25
Anna's Spirit: 23
Guardian Spirit OP-Force (in Flat): 23
Nova: 22
Bound Spirit OP-Force (Astral): 21
Sharkboy: 20
Wraith: 13

Okay, thanks. And just out of interest: Do you know of any rules to reduce "falling" damage if you jump out in a controlled way, using either Gymnastics or Free Fall? CRB says that the Free Fall skill is used for "leaps from a third-floor window" but there are no rules. Unless I missed anything.

He gets out for two reasons.
1. "To break out of a Subduing or Clinch, the character must succeed in an Unarmed Combat + Strength [Physical] Test with a threshold equal to the net hits scored on the opponents original subduing test" It's not an opposed check, and the original check's net hits was 2.
2. "When I made the throw attempt and failed to have the throw succeed because of the net hits, the clinch was automatically broken.

He's good to go.

-5 Interrupt Action: Attack, Called Shot, Knockdown
Knock Down (Unarmed-4): 15d6t5 6
DV 13S Reach 1 as per Sweep Martial Art

Publishing things without rules for them, who would do that?

Free-Fall looks like it's the rules for rappelling or skydiving, but the stuff that isn't accounted for with gymnastics. Rappelling for example uses Free-Fall instead of Gymnastics for clmbing (for reasons). I think it's supposed to be less an attempt to control your own body and rather your skill at using equipment to control your own fall.