Oh pish posh.

Corp holding VS corp istelf is a distinction that is abused. IMO Lofwyr doesn't care if you target ATT&T, BMW, the Swiss Bank Corporation or SK-Prime HQ. It all belongs to him and that's all there is to it and he'll make sure the people guarding his property are up to snuff.

If you are a major megacorp, you have military training facilities. Boot camp, just like the army. If you have boot camp and training facilities, it is worth your while to have all your security personnel trained in them on a rotating schedule. Otherwise you are not getting your money's worth out of them.

Heck, it's even a source of profit. Knight Errant is simply Ares surplus security personel put at the disposition of the rest of the world. All these guys are training when not on assignment. And Renreku is not about to hire Knight Errant for its own facilities so they'll make sure their own personel is trained at a comparable level.

As for the suggestion that Red Samurai might be mostly composed of 'ex-military, ex-runners, defectors from other corps', that's bull. For one thing, it's specifically stated in CD that no reds are ever ex-runner. The logical extension is that no red are ever ex-anything. They grew up in the corps and everything I have ever read about them support that notion. So if they are recruited intra-crop, we are back to the need of a large pool of talent to recruit from. For every Reds you need at least 100 reds-could-be and for every 100 reds-could-be you need...

Now, every site can't be protected by the cream of the cream, just like not every army unit is in tip-top shape. But by and large, the security personnel of a megacorp will be at least as well trained and equiped as the elements of a national army AFAIC.

That's probably the most illogical logical extension I've seen yet this year.

~J

i'm gonna agree with Kage, to say that they are ex-nothing implies that Red's are born/bred/raised Red, they eat/sleep/drink/poop Red, and are and have never been anything, BUT Red. I find that hard to beleive, you arent cream of the crop among men because thats what you were born, you work for it, you advance, and you turn into it, therfore, you have to be EX-something.

Maybe ex-'nothing that could possibly compromise loyalty that we are aware of'?

For crying out loud, I just means that it's most likely that a Red Samurai has never had another employer then Renreku.

Do we say that a Navy SEALs is an ex-GI, then ex-Ranger? He has always been US army. But if he had been Israeli army at some point, that would be surprising.

the year is young.

While that doesn't sound unreasonable for a decent number of RS, that in no way remotely is a logical extension of the lack of Shadowrunners.

It is indeed.

~J

They should see a doctor about that. That can't be good.

And as a note Corporate training does NOT have a fixed cost. It costs the corp cash to train and retrain. If 10% of the workforce is in training they have to hire 10% more folks to cover those positions.

Corps, unlike countries, are in business to make a profit, and they have a responsibility to their shareholders. They may have a huge cashflow but they will still not spend cash that doesn't need to be spent. personell training is a HUGE expense that in a lot of case has seriously dimishing returns.

Which is why the shunt the cost to employees and eat it up in savings from both insurance costs (ISO Certification required to receive discount) and increased up time. Simply put every employee in a service contract which includes mandatory health and fitness standards. This not only further lowers health care, raises moral, and actual increases overall productivity, the corp can snatch those with an aptitude to security detail.

Runners will be paid and hired according to the level of security they need to overcome. As you say, diminishing returns and all that.

Well, if I started to poop red, I might get concerned.

And as a note there is virtually ALWAYS a fixed cost and a variable cost for any investment.

In case of training, the fixed costs are the training facilities themselves (rent or amortizing) and the maintenance. These facilities must be quite extensive, since the Mega participate in the desert wars. They have not only grunts and elite commandos, they have pilots and technicians.

You pay for those facilities whether they are running at full capacity or are empty half the time.

IMO...

Now, if you use your facility at full capacity in order to build up what is essentially a private army, you increase variable cost but because of the fixed and semi-fixed cost, the cost by unit (of personnel) is lowered if you increase the amount of people sent training. Of course, what's the point of lowering cost/unit if you push the total cost over incomes, right?

But there are a lot of benefits. Benefits that only really apply to a megacorp which is why I concur that non-megacorp owned companies end up usually with a lesser caliber of security personnel.

First of all, you need security personnel anyway.

You can outsource. You'll pay a premium to the security provider on top of his expenses for his personnel. Best choice for mid-sized corp. Crappy one for a mega. First of all, the reason a security company can provide security at a better price than a normal company can is, like in most other outsourcing scenario, comes down to volume (lower cost/unit), favorable currency exchange rate and specialization (Better methods due to higher focus).

But megas don't believe in specialization. They are the antithesis of specialization, even though some of them focus in certain area. Megas concentrate vertically, horizontally and astronomically. Looking at the kind of holding they have, I bet quite a few of their star products are completely built in-house. From collecting raw material, transformation to assembling it. Look at SK! Is there any scrap of a BMW car that needs to come from a non SK company?! That kind of thing just doesn't exist IRL.

So Megas spit on specialization. If they can't do it better than a small corp despite their size, they'll buy the small corp and reverse engineer it as needed.

So we're left with volume and favorable currency exchange rate.

Volume : By deciding to field its own armed forces and providing security to its own site at 100%, a megacorp can insure its security division a better volume than, I suspect, even Knight Errant/Hardcorps! Only Lone Star likely has a better volume. (Note that when KE provide security to an Ares site, I don't count that as a KE sale. It's just intracorp fund shoveling. It's done all the time IRL to avoid taxes and it fools no one but still works fine most of the time).

But volume is only meaningful if you centralize the training process. Centralizing reduce costs in training, maintnance of equipment (you buy the same models throughout), troops affectation (less over-understaffing problems) etc.

Currency : Megas can pay in corp scrip. Corp scrip is not a cash flow. The real cash flow only occurs when the employee buys something from someone not afiliated with the corporation issuing the scrip. Only when that outsider asks the Megacorp to honor its scrip will a negative cash flow occurs. This is the equivalent of having your employee work for almost free in exchange for being supported at an agreed confort level. He may feel he lives for 60 000 nuyen a year, but he probably cost barely than a third of that to the company.

Fun tidbits : It depends on the jurisdiction but training employees usually yields tax break. So part of the training is indirectly financed by the governments. Fun, neh?

SR consideration : The competition is so insanely cut throat in the SR universe that not having to outsource security greatly increase, well, security. I'm sure every Mega feel more secure having guards who were raised singing the corporate anthemn and who have families living in corporate enclaves. People they have molded and can control.

Hopefully I have demonstrated that in the case of a Megacorp, it is worth it to train the entirety of their armed forces and not outsource. They can do it a lesser expenses than outside contractor and get more loyal troops.

But how much training to give? Can't you cut corner and train some of them like rent-a-cops for your smaller operation while giving top-notch training to those working useful sites?

You don't save much and it can hurt you. First of all, you have centralized your training process in order to save money. Secondly, you need to give some training to your personnel. Even ex-guards from another company who signed on with you needs to be trained in the Megacorp X procedure. So you need to have them brought to the training facilities anyway. It's a semi-fixed cost, you can chose not to bring them back every year but you'll do it at least once no matter what.

So since they are here anyway, the difference in a rent-a-cop and a well trained guard are just the expenses for the extra weeks and the quality of the training personnel.

It's non negligible but the advantage are many.

- Lower insurances premiums. Not only do your guards deal better with emergencies, the reputation your sec forces gain means you are gonna get attacked less often in the first place. While any punk will break into a mom&pop corp for some mischief, few people who do the same to any building known to belong to one of the Big 10. Hey, maybe the building is only generaring 1.5 millions in cashflow a year and thus can't justify the presence of more than 4 guards on a full time basis. But, hey, it belongs to Ares and one of the guard is a 50 year old veteran who did 2 tours in desert war and now contendly waiting for his pension. Still, if you try to be a punk on his watch he'll show you what he learned through all these years.

- Greater morale. That means lesser agency cost through disgruntled emplyees. Less theft, harder to bribe, more vigilant. If they are well trained, they'll take pride in their work. It's worth a lot and it translates in nuyen.

- The possibility to make money by renting out your surplus to smaller corp. That's money and influence. Sweet.

- The possibilty to recruit entirely in-house for various elite troops. It not only increases the integrity of the recruiting process, it further improves morale since your young guards now have a new attractive opportunity for promotion. And having elite troops then decrease the cost for training : When they retire from active duty many will choose to train recruits. The wheel turns!

-If you don't do a thorough boot camp for certain guards on the first go in order to save money, you'll need to retrain these guards if you want to relocate them. And if you decide it's not worth it, you end up with emplyees in a dead en job who soon become dead beat and may cause more problem than they prevent in the long run. It also annoy the hell out of logistic people when they are confronted with these kind of training compatibility problems.

So there you have it.

This is why I believe not only that the standard Big 10 megacorp security grunt is as well trained as a soldier if not better, no matter what site he has been assigned, I belive it makes sense. I don't think they'd outsource for a lesser holding ; it'd be more expensive than doing it themselves and wouldn't result in as good a quality IMO.

*I sometime used 'armed forces' as a synonym to security personnel or guards. Well, it is for a megacorp. Soldiers often do sentinel duty.

The mention of Ares Firewatch teams makes my teams turn down jobs and get plastic surgery.

I mean Superhuman rated NPC's that work for the biggest and most advanced weapons and military equipment manufacturer on the planet. Damn.

Whoa... I'm just going to tip toe around the edges of this discussion and say there's an errata for FFBA. It's on the official site.

Page 51: Form-Fitted Body Armor
Add to the end of the last sentence of the second paragraph the phrase: "...nor does it count against any Quickness tests (p. 285, SR3).

Hey, since the by the book the Ranger is the only one designed to be carried in a briefcase and then quickly assembled, I would actually argue it is the best sniper rifle in the game.

Everything else is better suited for military work. The Ranger is adapted for urban assassinations.

And if you are squeamish about abandoning an expensive sniper rifle on the ground as you make your getaway, the Ranger is the one you have the best chance to 'save' by swiftly putting it back in the briefcase and calmly leaving your position. When the forst wave of your target's security come rushing your position (drones, astral response, spirits, FTR team, whatever) you just might be able to escape notice. If you lug around a Barret, fat chance of that.

How do you enevr use an assault rifle or god forbid a Barrett without SWAT or FRT shooting you all dead. Someone's gotta panic and dial 911 when they see military hardware!

But yeah, the Aplha is a lot more feasable at least, you could theoretically at least stick it under a jacket.

Incidentally according to info I could find the Barrett m82a1 is 1448mm (a hair over 57 inches long) long and weighs 12.9 kg (28.38 lbs) empty. It's not a bullpup design and most of the mass is in front of the grip. Good luck in using that in CQB

EDIT: "And BitBasher; it's Avail 14 per box of 10 shots. I know; I try rolling this up every game session or so with my GM and only once in a while do I get a box or so."

What's the availability time listed for that?

Normal people are going to panic and call 911 at the sight of any kind of gun. BEtter trained people (i.e. gaurds for important sites) will only call lone star if it turns out to be necessary. The bosses don't like having to pay the response fee, or don't like having other companies in combat on their extra-territorial space.

That said though, the only time my group brings the big guns is if they're sneaking into somewhere or if they're somewhere that the Star doesn't care about.

In Real-Life or Shadowrun? No to the former, lots to the latter. And the latter only happens in poorly-lit, abandoned, or law-less areas (ie, Z-zone areas). Ususally when my char is using it, there aren't any "innocent bystanders" around to call the Lone Star and the others don't last long

Never said I advocated using it in CQB. In fact, as I said above, mine rarely gets used at all. I think I've used it maybe twice since acquiring it on a dozen or so runs.

Don't have Cannon Companion handy, sorry. But my group does its purchasing during "off-time" so it's rarely a factor for us.

When you live in a world where common sights are a bag lady with a shopping cart full of firearms, cloaked figures throwing fireballs, tanks, monsters, and elementals, people develop a more intellegent degree of panicking. It would no longer be Dial 911, describe the situation and explain why "Yes it's an emergency", and then wait patiently for an officer to arrive. Rather it would be more like Grab the Kids, Run for the nearest Shelter, and Wait until the noise stops. Then Dial 911

Except that those are NOT common sights. There's a canon quote that in most of seattle a swat team or two is called out for someone carrying an assault rifle. Everyone has a cellphone, 911 would get spammed in a second.

As far as elementals and fireballs there's also a canon quote that says a normal citizen will probably never see real magic during their lifetime unless they go out of their way to see it.

For joe citizen the world of SR doesn't vary dramatically from the world of today, the names just change.

Well, Seattle sourcebook does a good job of distinguishing beween areas.

Z = You could be lobbing C4 wrapped into a bag full of nails with a catapult, no cops will come. There's no real target to shoot at either unless you are hunting toxics, but that's another story. I don't often do run that end up there ; once in a while to enforce the flavor of the cyberpunk setting, but you soon run out of fun excuses to go in the slums. Setting up your own warzone is cathartic on occasion, though. Makes the troll player less itchy for a while, too.

AAA = If you carry a weapon in public, be it a derringer or an AR, odds are good a security drone will get it on camera before someone even think about dialing 911. You'll start getting piled on by various cops, drones, elemental and so on under a minute after you start trouble and get a FRT soon afterward. A lot less if you actually use the suggested rules in New Seattle. They are a bit extreme, to say the least.

Cyberpunk genre is not only about desolate slums were punks rule the day. It's also about high tech area were stonefaced security ruthlessly protects the respectable citizens from degenrates like your PCs. The contrast between the two is important, otherwise you are playing the Mad Max RPG, not SR. Not that there is anything wrong with Mad Max, mind you.

By and large, I don't let my runners get away with cracking out the big guns without consequences too often. Most targets are in B sections or above so assault rifle are not considered a fashion statement. Not that it stops most PCs from carrying some big toys in the trunks of their vehicles.

Even if you have a permit, you are not supposed to have it drawn.

Having it drawn will get you challenged mighty quick. Challenged as in "Freeze! Put your weapon down slowly". The rest of the piling up I suggested assumes the PCs takes the standard PC course of action when challenged, if you see what I mean.

Even if he does have a permit and avoid arrest, he'll get a warning or a citation. Keep your weapon holstered, citizen.

EDIT : I just realized I didn't specified that the derringer was drawn in my previous example. Well, that's what I meant!

That was in the NAN books, and pretty much all weapons were legal to carry for locals. It caused a very low crime rate.

The charge for having a weapon out is Brandishing or disturbing the peace ect... Yep.