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Starmage21
my question: Is it really so bad letting your players play the oddball magical traditions? The main reason I see in the books is that the "twisted" traditions are reserved for those really bad guys, but sometimes players runners can be worse than some of the "comic book" villainy you might come to expect from a Toxic mage.

Any GMs let theyre players use those traditions at all? How did it work out?
Whipstitch
Just don't let people summon blood spirits.
Starmage21
I can see how those might be kinda munchy, but what about the rest?
the_dunner
They're not balanced with the traditions that are intended for player use. If you don't really care about balance, then have a ball. However, those traditions should should become rather substantially more powerful than any of the ones intended for PC use.
Starmage21
Iono if that argument holds up with something like a toxic mage. The best thing they have is the radiation damage, which I think is harder to heal, but then healing doesnt count for bad guys biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
Yeah, previous editions had "Potency" or "Threat" ratings for people playingthe evil traditions - they just plain got extra dice for no reason. But in SR4, the bad guys use the same game rules as everyone else - a threat tradition is just a tradition.

If the group you're running with is cool with a character who kills a puppy every time she summons a spirit or who pours mercury and dioxin all over her basement floor - then go for it. These characters have extra social advantages and disadvantages, but they aren't inherently unbalanced.

The thing that is unbalanced is Blood Spirits. And that's because they have a recursive infinite power loop built right in to their special version of Drain. If you take that bullshit away from them and make them use the normal Essence Drain and Essence Loss out of the basic book you're golden and those guys become playable as well.

Blood Sacrifice is a metamagic, it's pretty dcent. Players could seriously have Flexible Signature instead, I'm fundamentally unconcerned (except for the whole "infinite power" crap that it gives right now, that's just dumb).

-Frank
Whipstitch
While I agree that Toxic mages aren't THAT nasty, they do get Abomination spirits, which get the Mutagen power. It lets them shift X mental attribute points into physical attributes, where X equals their Magic. Any Abomintion spirit of force 6 or higher can easly jack up their reaction or agility score into the double digits, making them one hell of an opponent. There's also the Anaphylaxis power which sludge spirits get, which is pretty deadly, but fortunately for shadowrunners everywhere, it's only touch range and inhalation vector.
Therumancer
*some* but not all of the bad traditions are more powerful than the player ones, and "power" is a subjective thing to what your trying to do. Ultimatly it comes down to what kind of game you want to run. While the PCs are "bad" it can be more properly defined as "being ruthless in a nasty world". Rather than being white knights, they are trying to do what they need to do to stay alive. Toxic/evil traditions are more outwardly malevolent. A typical PC might kill a bunch of people to cover himself, or easily complete a mission, or something similar. A Toxic Shaman might poison half of downtown for "spirtual reasons". smile.gif

Interpeted "properly" for PC use, some Toxic-type characters could very well be unusually hard core mercenaries. In the case of characters that are capable of more things than your "normal" tradition (like summoning blood spirits) I recommend simply increasing the costs for those abillities. Charge a player something like 20 or even 25 points for the nessicary "spirit mentor" to follow one of the more powerful traditions to balance the additional powers it grants.

That's my advice, all criticisms aside, one of the greatest strengths of SR4 over previous editions is the fact that you can assign "Costs" to things PCs want to do that are otherwise not covered by the rules.

>>>----Therumancer--->
WhiskeyMac
So would Jim Jones be considered a Poisoner style Toxic Shaman?
Starmage21
Even with the munchkinning of blood spirits, any GMs that had players use them anyway? Did the player try to abuse that power?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Starmage21)
Even with the munchkinning of blood spirits, any GMs that had players use them anyway? Did the player try to abuse that power?

Blood Spirit munchkining requires that you be a level 3 initiate (you need Sacrifice, Invoking, and Blood Invoking). Given the amount of time that it takes for a character to develope into a 3rd grade (or higher) initiate, I severely doubt that there are any games where players are blood magicians where this problem has not been noticed and spot fixed by the game masters of the specific campaigns the characters are in.

-Frank
less_than_vince
Toxic shamnan and insect shaman are in my opinion like drow in D&D or Assamite in vampire......they are GM tools to scare the players. No matter how bad you are, there are creature outhere just plain evil.

They are not just an other tradition of magic. They don't even care about the world or there race. An insect shaman is for exemple a race traitor. Even a sociopathic killer does'nt go that far. If a player play one of those tradition, they just become an another one.

A shadowrunner can be a killer, a thief, a renegade. Some may even do bad thing like rape or wathever. But blood spirit, poisener or insect spirit is far too alien for the mind, even a psychotic one, IMHO

(sorry for the english, not my language)

Grinder
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
If the group you're running with is cool with a character who kills a puppy every time she summons a spirit or who pours mercury and dioxin all over her basement floor - then go for it. These characters have extra social advantages and disadvantages, but they aren't inherently unbalanced.

If a player (and his group) really want to dive into Toxic Magic I suggest reading the magic sourcebook for Deadlands: Wasted West, "Spirit Warriors" iirc. wink.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Toxic shamnan and insect shaman are in my opinion like drow in D&D or Assamite in vampire...


You do realize that the Drow are playable in D&D and the Assamite are playable in Vampire, right? There are whole campaigns where people play these characters and they work fine.

QUOTE (Grinder)
If a player (and his group) really want to dive into Toxic Magic I suggest reading the magic sourcebook for Deadlands: Wasted West, "Spirit Warriors" iirc.


Personally I would never suggest Deadlands to anone on the grounds that the fine people of AEG decided to officially chop my head off and put it on a stick to protest my rules-lawyering in the storyline for that game (Tombstone Frank is a picture of me). wink.gif

Other good pieces of inspiration for Toxic Magic include Dark Sun and Zodiac (by Stephenson, not the movie).

-Frank
Starmage21
Im familiar with D&D, drow, and Assamites from V:TM(in fact, im playing one right now in someone else's game).

I guess the Dark Sun reference supports letting your players play the threat traditions(they may not be actual traditions, but thats what im callin it for now). After all, in Dark Sun, you could play a defiler, and most people wouldnt like you, but you could still get by with it.
MaxHunter
... and one of the best characters I saw in my Darksun campaign was a defiler necromancer. It was just tough for the player to escape from those velied alliance executioners and all, but great fun anyway.

The point: it is quite possible to include evil traditions and sociopathic behaviour in the game. Evil traditions are not so much more evil than people shooting other people in the face for money, and have their own pretty serious disadvantages. (blood spirits power loop notwithstanding) You only have to play those disadvantages and you need the right kind of players and the right group so everyone feels happy with the ride.
fistandantilus4.0
Defilers?! Hell in Darksun, playing the mage got you killed!

I loves my Darksun. love.gif
less_than_vince
QUOTE
Toxic shamnan and insect shaman are in my opinion like drow in D&D or Assamite in vampire...



You do realize that the Drow are playable in D&D and the Assamite are playable in Vampire, right? There are whole campaigns where people play these characters and they work fine.


I know, but they lost their flavor the day every player wanted to do a good drow or a uzi/katana/ tranchecoat welding assamite

If player play a insect or toxic shaman and other shadowrunner hang with him, then toxic and insect magic become just an another path.

X-Kalibur
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Defilers?! Hell in Darksun, playing the mage got you killed!

I loves my Darksun. love.gif

Let's be perfectly honest then... just playing Darksun got you killed. biggrin.gif
Starmage21
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ May 14 2007, 01:07 PM)
Defilers?! Hell in Darksun, playing the mage got you killed!

I loves my Darksun.  love.gif

Let's be perfectly honest then... just playing Darksun got you killed. biggrin.gif

/agree
Grinder
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Grinder)
If a player (and his group) really want to dive into Toxic Magic I suggest reading the magic sourcebook for Deadlands: Wasted West, "Spirit Warriors" iirc.


Personally I would never suggest Deadlands to anone on the grounds that the fine people of AEG decided to officially chop my head off and put it on a stick to protest my rules-lawyering in the storyline for that game (Tombstone Frank is a picture of me). wink.gif

Let that be a warning to all rule-lawyers! grinbig.gif

OT: over what points did you argue with them?
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
Let's be perfectly honest then... just playing Darksun got you killed. biggrin.gif

Yeah.... *reminisces*
kzt
QUOTE (less_than_vince)
If player play a insect or toxic shaman and other shadowrunner hang with him, then toxic and insect magic become just an another path.

There was an old quote from Larry Ditillo (iirc) about the drawback of running evil games was that along the lines of "after you stake a few rangers to anthills it tends to get boring or turn into a 'can you top this' series of increasingly sick stunts."
psychophipps
I think it strongly depends on the player. It can easily devolve into a slaughterfest of comic (yes, not cosmic) proportions but if you get the right Machiavellian mofo to do the dirty deeds, it can be quite rewarding with many an excellent roleplaying encounter. I would ask for a character concept and small backstory to get a feel for the character. If it's whack then you know he just wants to run around sucking brains and/or souls so you can turn them down cold. If it's cool then you know what to expect and can tweak your campaign to let them fit.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 14 2007, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE (Grinder)
If a player (and his group) really want to dive into Toxic Magic I suggest reading the magic sourcebook for Deadlands: Wasted West, "Spirit Warriors" iirc.


Personally I would never suggest Deadlands to anone on the grounds that the fine people of AEG decided to officially chop my head off and put it on a stick to protest my rules-lawyering in the storyline for that game (Tombstone Frank is a picture of me). wink.gif

Let that be a warning to all rule-lawyers! grinbig.gif

OT: over what points did you argue with them?

Ironically it was about L5R, not Deadlands. See, in the L5R card game, the card traits were defined as being "any word on the card" - which had intersting implications for characters who had bonuses against shadowlands creatures and even more hilarious implications for characters who couldn't wear armor.

As a Shadowfist player, I had access to a set of trait rules that actually functioned and provided a set of fixed rules for card text location as regarded traits (as well as the required "This card is not a Naga" errata to the "Naga Hunter"). That made them look kind of bad. So bad in fact that they banned me from ever posting on the rules list, chopped the head off of Tombstone Frank, and used my suggested rule almost word-for-word without attribution in the next printing of the rulebook.

Before that I wrote the Crab Clan alliance with the Nezumi, but after that I haven't been on speaking terms with any part of AEG.

-Frank
Starmage21
QUOTE (psychophipps)
I think it strongly depends on the player. It can easily devolve into a slaughterfest of comic (yes, not cosmic) proportions but if you get the right Machiavellian mofo to do the dirty deeds, it can be quite rewarding with many an excellent roleplaying encounter. I would ask for a character concept and small backstory to get a feel for the character. If it's whack then you know he just wants to run around sucking brains and/or souls so you can turn them down cold. If it's cool then you know what to expect and can tweak your campaign to let them fit.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Thats a good Idea.

Personally, what youve described is how I tend to play my evil guys, but im running this game, and a player asked about the threat magics.
Ravor
Well I've never had anyone want to play an Insect Shaman, but I have no problems with Blood Magic (After fixing Blood Spirits of course.) and Toxic Shamans don't really seem all that bad either...
fistandantilus4.0
Currently playing a bug shaman. My take, ATM, it's not that different because the character is staying very low key ,especially in regards to magical tradtion. Not a whole lot of bug making going on. The main thing to keep in mid is that there's a whole slew of people that would be happy to off a known bug shaman. If you're in Seattle, you could start that list with the gang the Spiders. They exist specifically to kill bugs and their shamans. The theme their is Keep Your Head Down.
Starmage21
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Currently playing a bug shaman. My take, ATM, it's not that different because the character is staying very low key ,especially in regards to magical tradtion. Not a whole lot of bug making going on. The main thing to keep in mid is that there's a whole slew of people that would be happy to off a known bug shaman. If you're in Seattle, you could start that list with the gang the Spiders. They exist specifically to kill bugs and their shamans. The theme their is Keep Your Head Down.

This is the stuff I primarily want to see, but from the GM's perspective. How they would deal with it, and challenge the player in the context of their alternate "tradition"

Thanks everyone for posting.

The concept the player has proposed is workable for a shadowrunner team. He wants to play a Havoc archetype Toxic Mage who hates the corporations as a force of stability in the region, and so he runs because a chance to strike at a coporation(any corporation) further's his ideals, even if in a small way.

I hope that I can prod the player into greater and greater lengths to accomplish his goals. I think at first I want to give him access to radioactive materials(perhaps reactor-grade uranium or low-grade plutonium) just to see what he does with it.
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