Full Version: R.A.W. Rulings for Astral Spell Casting
In my my gaming group a discussion arose on whether or not an Astrally Projecting PC can target a mundane on the Material plane with a spell. I know the old way of casting on the Astral caused physical drain is gone. But can you target mundanes?
Pretty much your answer is no. They can only target dual natured beings with spells from the astral (who are on the material). Mr. Street Sam over there is not a viable target.
unless he happens to be a ghoul.
X-Kalibur is correct.
Your astrally projecting PC can only target astrally active targets.
So, other astrally projecting creatures, dual natured creature and active foci. Note that you cannot ground out a spell thru a foci, but you can at least take it off-line.
Complete mundanes and non-astrally active awakened cannot be targetted by spells from astral space.
Your astrally projecting PC can only target astrally active targets.
So, other astrally projecting creatures, dual natured creature and active foci. Note that you cannot ground out a spell thru a foci, but you can at least take it off-line.
Complete mundanes and non-astrally active awakened cannot be targetted by spells from astral space.
| QUOTE (Mistwalker) |
| Note that you cannot ground out a spell thru a foci, but you can at least take it off-line. |
I was flipping through the rules the other day trying to find the way to take out foci in 4th ed, and couldn't find it. Anyone care to point me in the right direction?
unless you have a portable astral gateway (read: great form guidance spirit) handy, in which case you can do all sorts of horrible things to people (or objects for that matter) from the astral 
| QUOTE (Nocturne) | ||
I was flipping through the rules the other day trying to find the way to take out foci in 4th ed, and couldn't find it. Anyone care to point me in the right direction? |
well, the rules are all there, except for how tough the focus is, and what happens when you defeat it in astral combat iirc.
so it's entirely possible you're just going crazy trying to find the two rules that aren't there
| QUOTE (Jaid @ May 13 2007, 06:32 AM) | ||||
well, the rules are all there, except for how tough the focus is, and what happens when you defeat it in astral combat iirc. so it's entirely possible you're just going crazy trying to find the two rules that aren't there |
| QUOTE (p191) |
| When activated, foci have an astral form [ . . . ] |
| QUOTE (p174) |
| Spells cast on astral objects like mana barriers or active foci are resisted with force. |
Basically if you can do physical damage to a focus it's not any different from taking a hammer to it. So since it's astral when activated nothing stops me from dropping a manabolt into it. Even a manaball, however the ball's radius of effect will only include other active astral forms.
You can't engage in astral combat with wards barriers and foci anymore. In previous editions there were rules about how those things fought back, and how they regenerated if damaged but not destroyed, no longer.
The tough part as Jaid has noted is that there is no standard for armor/barrier ratings for objects. If your Druid has a power focis made froma woad pouch it wouldn't have a very high barier or armor rating. However if your focus was a Platinum ring it would be much more resistant to getting blowed up.
I don not believe that there are any hard and fast rules for what happens when you take a foci off line thru astral combat.
I usually say that the focus is physically unharmed, but unable to be used for "x" number of minutes. Where X = the force of the spell that took the focus down.
I usually say that the focus is physically unharmed, but unable to be used for "x" number of minutes. Where X = the force of the spell that took the focus down.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| so it's entirely possible you're just going crazy trying to find the two rules that aren't there |
I guess that explains it. Odd that it wasn't caught in Street Magic at least, since prior SR editions had rules for blowing away active foci from astral space. Maybe someday it'll end up in the FAQ...
Seems to me the astral defense of a foci would be independent from it's physical composition, and based solely on its force. Maybe just treat it as an object with armor and structure equal to force (on the astral only). I'd probably use the ward regeneration rules. I'm not sure if I like having it unusable for a period (minutes? hours?) dependent upon the force of the attacking effect, or the force of the focus itself.
And what about counterspelling? Could a mage designate her foci as under spell defense? If so, would foci automatically be protected, just as the mage is?
Alternatively, you could rule that a focus is too entwined with the mage's aura to target in this way. Then the only thing you could do against them is dispel a spell held in a sustaining focus (arguing that since the focus is dual-natured this satisfies the "same plane" requirement for dispelling), following normal dispelling rules.
Some pertinent quotes:
Since foci are defined in more than one place as astral constructs, my vote is for #2.
- "They cannot inflict Physical damage and so cannot affect astral forms affected only by Physical damage, such as barriers and foci." (SR, p. 181)
"disrupted foci deactivate." (SR, p. 186)
"When activated, foci have an astral form ..." (SR, p. 191)
- The astral form of a focus is similar to a spirit and so has a condition monitor equal to 8 plus half its Force.
- The astral form of a focus is similar to a mana barrier and has an Armor and Structure equal to its Force which refreshes each Combat Turn.
Since foci are defined in more than one place as astral constructs, my vote is for #2.
The Disrupted Foci deactivate is taken out of context. That is in a section of forcing a Focus through a barrier.
I don't wee where assigning a armor and barrier rating based on force is indicated anywhere. That appears to just be made up on the fly here and I don't know its supported in the rules at all.
Consider a mage who enters astral space has a physical condition monitor that is the same as in physical space. A focus that activates and has an astral form also has a capacity for physical damage that is based on its form.
I say refer to the Barrier Rating Table on P. 157 and assign it something appropriate to the form that your magician chooses to give it. Sure taht means that peopel will be more likely to take 6mm Platinum Wedding Bands or equivalent for pure indestructability reasons. But if you really want your Focus to be Charred Oak with a pheonix feather core, then you'll have to deal with it...
I don't wee where assigning a armor and barrier rating based on force is indicated anywhere. That appears to just be made up on the fly here and I don't know its supported in the rules at all.
Consider a mage who enters astral space has a physical condition monitor that is the same as in physical space. A focus that activates and has an astral form also has a capacity for physical damage that is based on its form.
I say refer to the Barrier Rating Table on P. 157 and assign it something appropriate to the form that your magician chooses to give it. Sure taht means that peopel will be more likely to take 6mm Platinum Wedding Bands or equivalent for pure indestructability reasons. But if you really want your Focus to be Charred Oak with a pheonix feather core, then you'll have to deal with it...
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| The Disrupted Foci deactivate is taken out of context. That is in a section of forcing a Focus through a barrier. |
Okay, here's more, then: "Disrupted spells immediately end and disrupted foci deactivate. Disrupted spirits are sent back to the spirit’s metaplane, whereas disrupted characters are knocked unconscious (fill in their entire Stun Condition Monitor)." (Boyle et al. 186)
I noticed that the description of disruption here matches the description of disruption elsewhere, where such rules exist. I didn't think it much of a stretch to assume that the writer knew what she or he was talking about when discussing the disruption of astral forms.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| I don't wee where assigning a armor and barrier rating based on force is indicated anywhere. That appears to just be made up on the fly here and I don't know its supported in the rules at all. |
SR4, page 185.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Consider a mage who enters astral space has a physical condition monitor that is the same as in physical space. A focus that activates and has an astral form also has a capacity for physical damage that is based on its form. |
That's an interesting point, but I can't agree with it. An astral magician is a living being, whereas a focus is an astral construct (SM, p. 112). I probably should have mentioned that in my initial post. Active foci are lumped into the same category as wards and other astral barriers. I figured the rules for one could easily be applied to the other.
Maybe if we bug FanPro/IMR enough, we can find out for certain, though.
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
Okay, here's more, then: "Disrupted spells immediately end and disrupted foci deactivate. Disrupted spirits are sent back to the spirit’s metaplane, whereas disrupted characters are knocked unconscious (fill in their entire Stun Condition Monitor)." (Boyle et al. 186) |
Smashing a focus with a manabolt is not at all similar to forcing it through a ward. The context I was referring to was the section heading that you pulled that quote from, the one that says, “PASSING THROUGH BARRIERS�.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I noticed that the description of disruption here matches the description of disruption elsewhere, where such rules exist. |
But they do not, disrupting a projecting magician is done with stun damage. If you fill a magicians physical condition monitor while they are projecting they die. Consider that at best the effect of disrupting an astral object is a stun affect, but you cannot affect a focus with a stun damage spell, only physical. There’s no reason to think that physical damage should nto affect the physical form.
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||
SR4, page 185. |
Under which heading: Astral Tracking, The Metaplanes, Mana Barriers, Mana Lodges, Wards, or Passing Through Barriers? Not one of those has anything to do with the durability of a focus.
It would be a little harsh to run around destroying a PC mage's foci from the astral. They cost muchos nuyen and karma to bind afterall.
Even if you were to rule that they were destroyable, it makes sense that their resistance to magical damage would be based on their force, which might be seen as governing the integrity of their astral form. Elsewise you'll not be encouraging platinum wedding bands, but rather high tech foci, for the added protection of object resistance.
Personally I don't think it is important, as PCs can make a lot more money out of looting an NPCs foci rather than destroying it (so even if they were to attack said foci they'd be smart to use a stun spell), and if you as the GM are deliberately targeting a mage's foci you'll just wind up with a pissed off mage player. There are better ways to govern foci abuse after all.
Even if you were to rule that they were destroyable, it makes sense that their resistance to magical damage would be based on their force, which might be seen as governing the integrity of their astral form. Elsewise you'll not be encouraging platinum wedding bands, but rather high tech foci, for the added protection of object resistance.
Personally I don't think it is important, as PCs can make a lot more money out of looting an NPCs foci rather than destroying it (so even if they were to attack said foci they'd be smart to use a stun spell), and if you as the GM are deliberately targeting a mage's foci you'll just wind up with a pissed off mage player. There are better ways to govern foci abuse after all.
Even high tech foci would resist based on Force, that's a given (note the quite I cited in my first post in this thread, object resistance wont enter into it), their durability is based on the durability of the item however.
It may be harsh. But it's likewise harsh to have a player killed by a bullet to the brainpan. That's no reason to call the rules into question.
It may be harsh. But it's likewise harsh to have a player killed by a bullet to the brainpan. That's no reason to call the rules into question.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Smashing a focus with a manabolt is not at all similar to forcing it through a ward. The context I was referring to was the section heading that you pulled that quote from, the one that says, “PASSING THROUGH BARRIERS�. |
Just so I have this straight, are you maintaining that disruption of a focus by a ward is different than disruption of a focus by, for example, a manabolt?
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| But they do not, disrupting a projecting magician is done with stun damage. If you fill a magicians physical condition monitor while they are projecting they die. Consider that at best the effect of disrupting an astral object is a stun affect, but you cannot affect a focus with a stun damage spell, only physical. There’s no reason to think that physical damage should nto affect the physical form. |
I disagree. There is a clear distinction between astral forms that are living beings and astral forms that are constructs. SM quite clearly defines a focus as a construct; why then would a focus be more likely respond to damage like a magician than a ward?
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Under which heading: Astral Tracking, The Metaplanes, Mana Barriers, Mana Lodges, Wards, or Passing Through Barriers? Not one of those has anything to do with the durability of a focus. |
Now you're just poking fun at me. You must have read the part a few posts ago where I described how I came to that conclusion, right?
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| It may be harsh. But it's likewise harsh to have a player killed by a bullet to the brainpan. That's no reason to call the rules into question. |
Foci don't have Edge.
I think most players accept that they will be shot at. And if they happen to take a bullet through the head that's part of the game. To destroy a PCs focus though, that requires a GM to intentionally target said focus with the aim of destroying it. Quite different motivations, I'd say.
I think the problem is that it's not at all clear what happens to a foci when its astral form is attacked. I somehow doubt the physical item itself fragments. It is the magical component that is being attacked after all.
Metahumans resist mana spells with willpower, which isn't a trait commonly possessed by objects, consequently it makes sense to me that the force governs how much astral damage a foci will take before breaking.
I think the problem is that it's not at all clear what happens to a foci when its astral form is attacked. I somehow doubt the physical item itself fragments. It is the magical component that is being attacked after all.
Metahumans resist mana spells with willpower, which isn't a trait commonly possessed by objects, consequently it makes sense to me that the force governs how much astral damage a foci will take before breaking.
Actually, while I have the attention of distinguished Dumpshockers with a strong grasp of the magic rules, would you mind having a look at the query I posted in the Street Magic errata thread? I would post it here, but that would probably be considered thread hijacking.
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